Fate/Zero - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

Originally Posted by jeroz

seriously, I'm spotting more and more similarities between Kiritsugu and Homura....

Don't start. Next thing you know, we'll be seeing fanart of Kiritsugu wearing Irisviel's pantsu on his head...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by jeroz

seriously, I'm spotting more and more similarities between Kiritsugu and Homura....

Madoka had elements from many of Urobuchi's works. I see nothing wrong with it and many authors do it, so yeah.

And Kiritsugu has it so much worse than Homura.

[kk2extreme]

Saturaday is not coming fast enough

[SuzushinaYuriko]

Originally Posted by jeroz

seriously, I'm spotting more and more similarities between Kiritsugu and Homura....

I'm pretty sure Homura's character was directly based off of Kiritsugu's.

[Ithekro]

Homura probably gets the better ending.

[jeroz]

well, in Urobuchi's world, the earlier you die the better off you are.

not much of a surprise that Ryunosuke got the best ending (so far) since he's the first one out.

[blue_sora]

So episode 21 preview images:

Spoiler for Ep 21:

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by jeroz

well, in Urobuchi's world, the earlier you die the better off you are.

not much of a surprise that Ryunosuke got the best ending (so far) since he's the first one out.

Sounds a lot like a 1980's Tomino world.

[jeroz]

I'd been thinking though. Ever since that very first incident with Shirley, has there been anyone that told Kiritsugu that what he believed is/might be wrong?

[Haak]

So far only Saber, though unfortunately she didn't make the most compelling argument. XP

[Guido]

The last two episodes I take them as an overture to an ever-descending tragedy spiraling down.

Here, in this twentieth episode, that marks the last arc for this epic story, not only the death flag became more pronounced than ever but increased dramatically, and it finally happen that one amongst my favorite characters died out; it seems the writers saved the most important characters for the very end.


For starters, I do not want to expand upon Irisviel's request to Kiritsugu to take Ilya to Japan once the Holy Grail War is over, because I fear I will be spoiling right into Fate/stay Night.
But, both Irisviel and Maiyas' personal interactions discussiing their reasons as to why they made their minds to help Kiritsugu couldn't be more passionate and immersive. It truly made me to connect with both of them as a person.

Spoiler:

I was shocked at Maiya's turn to die in this episde, though her death flag was raised for a while to be in expectation.

Yet, it was powerful listening to Irisviel that Maiya should keep herself alive after the War to look for both her lost name and family, thus giving herself another to exist.
I guess that after getting struck fatally Maiya kept herself alive to wait for Kiritsugu to come; she felt no worries at the beginning of the episode when Kiritsugu walked out with Avalon in his hands, having reignited his killer eyes again.

She kept herself alive so Kiritsugu would come and deliver her that her task was over, thus dying a death without regrets with full satisfaction that she became useful to Kiritsugu.

[SJCrew]

After Rider's conversation with Waver, all I could think about was, "Fuck your path. Fuck your path."

You led your men to death for something stupid. If you wanted to see the other end of the world without killing, book a travel agent. "Don't mind us, just me and my soldiers walking through to see Oceanus...oh, can I have your country while you're at it? No? War time."

I cannot stand his self-righteous attitude toward Saber's ideals. I mean, outside of that, he's a good guy, great even. But whenever discussion of Saber comes up, he's fucking obnoxious. "Oh what? You didn't live the way I did? Fuck you and your kingship. Nothing you did mattered. MY WAY IS THE RIGHT ONE LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING." I really hope they resolve this forced rivalry soon. It's stupid, and should have never been written into the story.

Actually, you know what a better rival would have been? Archer. Because he's the one who stands for everything a king should not. In my honest opinion, we didn't need two major foils to Saber in the story. Shirou challenged her ideals better than anyone in this story could have, so I don't see why they chose to beat the point into the ground that Saber was wrong. Her resolve was admirable and she was burdened with a responsibility that no girl her age should have had to shoulder. No one in either story seems to respect that.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

After Rider's conversation with Waver, all I could think about was, "Fuck your path. Fuck your path."

You led your men to death for something stupid. If you wanted to see the other end of the world without killing, book a travel agent. "Don't mind us, just me and my soldiers walking through to see Oceanus...oh, can I have your country while you're at it? No? War time."

Yeah, because that's really common in his era.

And are you implying people will let the ruler of Macedonia simply walk on their territories with his army? Nobody believed him he was only passing through without interest in the territories (it's even in the novels), because it sounded outlandish. Eventually, his defeated foes realized he was saying the truth and... joined him. I suppose I blame the anime for shrinking Waver's flashback. All the people he defeated, were given their lands back. Rider simply take off. They willingly abandoned everything to chase after him. He conquered... their hearts. That's what his conquest path was about. The hearts become one with his. He's the living and walking "Defeat means Friendship" troupe.

This inspiration was what Saber envied, because she could never gain the loyalty of her subjects as much as she tried. They never talked to her.

Originally Posted by SJCrew

I cannot stand his self-righteous attitude toward Saber's ideals. I mean, outside of that, he's a good guy, great even. But whenever discussion of Saber comes up, he's fucking obnoxious. "Oh what? You didn't live the way I did? Fuck you and your kingship. Nothing you did mattered. MY WAY IS THE RIGHT ONE LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING." I really hope they resolve this forced rivalry soon. It's stupid, and should have never been written into the story.

You completely misunderstand Rider's criticism on Saber and calling him self-righteous? Wrong ruler, that's the King of Knights. How ironic that Saber reaches to his same conclusion about mourn but not regret eventually and be proud of how you reach (and both take what they need for their Masters: Shirou and Waver, even the manga version has Waver and Rider in the Saber and Shirou pose to make it obvious). If she had been a bit less narrow-minded, she would have actually get a civil discussion (unfortunately it derailed because of mocking Gilgamesh and Rider later misunderstanding Saber's grief and wine. The wine got to their heads and then... there was no other chance). But Zero Saber has this flaw (and I like her arrogance more than her lack of pride in FSN). He cares a lot about Saber. Did you miss his sad expression on his face when he saw Excalibur? While Gilgamesh wants to see her crushed under that burden, he wants to foolishly save her. He has nothing but respect for Saber as a fighter and warrior, plus admiration for her spirit. But he sees her role as a king as destroying what makes her human.

Which is what she did. To be a king, she destroyed her humanity. He's right on his observation. Not saying she did wrong, but Rider likes Saber and hates to see her in pain (his too extreme empathy is a flaw of his because it makes him too foolishly emotional). He told Gilgamesh they couldn't see each others in the eye when he gleefully get off her pain in Rider's face on that bridge.

Also, not getting your last point? Rider is Archer's "worthy rival" according to Nasu. Saber was never a rival for either of them. To Rider, she was just a person he wanted to save (Same as Shirou did in the beginning). To Gilgamesh, she was just a thing to claim as his because he wants to see her suffering the moment she's broken.

The three of them are great kings, as well. Nasu idea was to have the kings contrasted (since they are different from each other- Gilgamesh doesn't give a crap about touching people's hearts like Rider or ideals like Saber. He's an "absolute controller." Ironically, he can't be corrupted because of his godly ego, but just Saber can and very easily- because of her selflessness. Rider and Saber are actually more alike, because they love their people and have big dumb dreams about utopias. Oceanus, what you badmouth, is an utopia as much as Avalon is, different because they answered to their era concepts of aspirations. They tried to become the best ruler, rather than be "born" like Gil was. They went on it in opposite ways. They led by example but different example. Rider aspired as be as human as possible for his people to identify with him, Saber to be as less human and 'lofty' as possible so people would have some icon to look up in chaos). They are just the best for the era they lived on. You put Saber on Rider's or Gil's era? She'll suck. Same if you try to place the other two in hers or each others reigns. I suppose my personal perfect ruler is a mix of Saber and Rider.

If Saber has a 'rival' in Zero is either Lancer or Berserker. The kings are there for her to feel (wrongly) inferior. The issue of Saber versus the other kings wasn't that she had a different method (novel point out this wasn't, although anime did remove this dialogue. In fact, Rider tells her she should be more open minded even if their ways are different), but that she wanted to change history and step on her reign and legend. She wasn't respecting her path of kingship. That was all.