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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 58 | 41.13% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 47 | 33.33% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 23 | 16.31% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 9 | 6.38% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 2.13% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.71% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-02-20, 20:05 | Link #481 | |||
~Official Slacker~
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
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Firstly, Kyubey can create miracles that is a proven fact, and that wish can create happiness, but there is an equal sadness to be conflicted with this happiness. Mami made the wish to save her life, but living as magical girl, she has been lonely for the majority of her life as a magical girl. Sayaka wished for Kamijo's recovery, but now is conflicted with Hitomi going to tell Kamijo that she loves him. Although this is a strange development, I have some opinions about it, but I'll discuss with those opinions after this. Kyouko wished for people to join her father's church, but her father found out and went on a ballistic rampage on how his own daughter became a witch (in his own opinion) Mami had a redeeming quality at episode 3 before her unfortunate demise, Madoka was the savior here with relieving Mami of her own sadness. The magical girls are conflicted with this own sadness that they have brought upon themselves, and it's becoming a great burden for all of them. I believe that a redeeming quality will come their way eventually if they don't perish by then. The girls made these wishes on their own will, or were stressed and worried about the situation they were in that they "made their own mind up" and went full out with the dangers they have somewhat saw. Of course Mami din't know of the dangers of being a magical girl, nor did Kyouko. But I think that Kyubey din't tell Sayaka about the dangers of being a magical girl is because he thought that Mami explained "enough" to get those without a strong will to back down. If he told them that he will take their souls and stuff it in a pendant... Would you join? Nooooo.... Kyubey is at fault because of his sudden appearance right when the girls need to wish the most... Why does Kyubey appear right when Mami is on the verge of death? Why does Kyubey appear right when Kyouko wanted to help her father the most? Why does he appear when Kamijo just went on a mental breakdown, leaving a poor Sayaka to be saddened? He has no understanding of human emotions (as seen in episode 6) so he would not know what they would wish for, or see the situation they were in. But for some reason, he is always there when they need to wish the most... I don't know about Mami or Kyouko, but ever since Sayaka and Madoka met Kyubey, their lives have been changed very thoroughly. He tempts girls with a "wish" in order to keep them interested on the subject, not knowing of the full danger they are going to be in (even if they may have had hints from others, or Kyubey warned them about some things) A miracle when they most need it, that alone will keep them from rejecting it only when they truly want to use it. I would be surprised if a girl actually refused Kyubey's tempting offer. *munches on melon bread* Nipaaaa
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2011-02-20, 20:14 | Link #482 |
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Hooves - Just so you know, that wasn't a sarcastic comment on my part. It was a serious point.
One thing I'll concede here - It's possible that wishes in this universe function like alchemy does in Full Metal Alchemist. In other words, the concept of equivalent exchange is always at play. Happiness and sadness are kept in overall balance. So, if a wish gives you immediate happiness, then you have to pay for that happiness with an equivalent degree of sadness later (which can happen simply through the hardships of being a magical girl, of course). Perhaps in a sense, a wish in this anime is like a bank loan. You get one big lump sum of money with a bank loan that you have to slowly pay back in smaller parts. With a wish, you get a big immediate jump in happiness (just as Sayaka clearly did), and then you slowly pay it back in smaller parts of sadness (as Sayaka is doing now). It's interesting that Kyoko seems reasonably happy now. Perhaps that's because she's "paid off" the "happiness bank loan". It's also interesting how Mami suggested to Madoka that Madoka should wish for a cake. A cake would only bring slight happiness, so the sadness payback for that would also be very slight. Now, this is just speculation, but it's something I think might be worth putting out there. It's not quite the same as a monkey's paw, because a monkey's paw generally isn't equivalent.
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2011-02-20, 20:16 | Link #483 | ||||||||
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
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"Tragedy happened after wishes, therefore wishes must cause tragedy." To accurately portray my argument, re-write it as this: "Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy." It has not been disproven. We agree that Kyoko fits the bill. You may dispute whether Sayaka initially fit the bill, but we agree that she was miserable at the point of her contraction. Madoka, if we say not to be sad enough, has not made the contract. Mami, who was about to die, is also agreed upon. You might say that the two are not related, but it's a conclusion reached from evidence. If you wish to attack my argument, you must do so on a level of counter-examples. Quote:
My main point is that Kyubey makes contracts with very depressed girls, and at the moment of contraction, Sayaka fit. Quote:
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I thought Sayaka was sad because she was bawling her eyes out. Quote:
It has not been disproven. We agree that Kyoko fits the bill. You may dispute whether Sayaka initially fit the bill, but we agree that she was miserable at the point of her contraction. Madoka, if we say not to be sad enough, has not made the contract. Mami, who was about to die, is also agreed upon. Quote:
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I said that Kyubey makes contracts with sad people. I did not say that they had to be sad to begin with. You may have a point in saying that they were not initially sad, but that doesn't address my main point. Quote:
There's not going to be a winner or loser unless one of us convinces the other. That will probably never happen until the anime explicitly states "Kyubey is evil." Absolutely. If the victim was at fault for living a sad life, then it's also Kyubey's fault for seeking that victim out and deceiving them. |
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2011-02-20, 20:20 | Link #484 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
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I think that this was the first time for Madoka and Kyoko to meet Homura, but her first time to meet them is in their future, and her wish was to go into the past so she could prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl. If that is the case then Homura and Sayaka will probably die during this Walpurgisnacht, with Madoka making a contract in an attempt to save them, but only saving Kyoko. Then, in a future Walpurgisnacht, Modoka dies saving Homura, who she is trying to keep from becoming a Magical Girl, and then Homura makes her contract to go into the past. But, assuming Magical Girls don't age, I could also see her trying to keep Madoka from making the mistake that she made because she was a close friend of Madoka's mother or father. Perhaps a previous Love Triangle where her actions, or inaction, led to the death of someone who was supposed to be her friend. |
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2011-02-20, 20:24 | Link #485 | |||
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Or Kyubey's Advocate. Indeed, as a joke, I think I'm going to start saying "To play Kyubey's Adovcate..." on any Anime Suki board or thread where I start playing Devil's Advocate, lol. Quote:
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2011-02-20, 20:26 | Link #486 | ||
~Official Slacker~
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
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Last edited by Hooves; 2011-02-21 at 01:14. |
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2011-02-20, 20:28 | Link #487 | |
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Going by that logic, I can make up a ton more fantastical theories that can't be disproven, and thus would have equal weight with yours. The problem is a theory should be based off the facts, and if there arises some evidence that would contradict the notion, or make it more awkward, then we should go back and re-evaluate the theory. Ideally, one should be basing a theory on the facts, not on what they'd like it to be. That leads to the dangers of confirmation bias. So "Tragedy happened after a depressed girl made a wish, therefore a depressed girl making a wish must cause tragedy" is still under the Correlation does not imply Causation banner. "Because Mami died, Madoka had a breakfast made by her father the next morning." You take two things, one that follows the other, and declare them a theory. If I really set that up as my theory, what would you think? You're smart, you can pick out interesting things... why tie yourself down to a theory? |
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2011-02-20, 20:30 | Link #488 | |||
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
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I hope they are all not Puella Magi in disguise. Quote:
I could be wrong. But it is your job to convince me... and everyone else on this thread. How successful has your law firm been? :P EDIT: Ah, crap, another post... Quote:
We can't prove that gravity is -9.8 m/s^2, but we can't disprove it either. We see things falling at that rate, but does that mean all things fall at that rate? Not having the imagination to think of something that could potentially break what we call "truths", I believe, is a limitation. Since the anime is still running, there could be exceptions. Of course, I wouldn't randomly state that a Flying Spaghetti monster exists; it's not an argument I would naturally propose. I don't think my point is that radical... Kyubey is evil because everyone he contracts is already sad, and they get even sadder afterward. It has, so far, not been disproven. And if it holds for the rest of the anime, I may as well accept it as fact, since there aren't any episodes left for my theory to have relevance. Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-20 at 20:41. |
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2011-02-20, 21:16 | Link #489 | ||
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Our whole goal hasn't been to convince people that Kyube is innocent; merely that the possibility for both ways still exists, and to try and keep an open mind until the end. In that light, many people have realized that. Just try to keep in mind, the next time you run into someone with different views who won't change his mind no matter what, that you don't really want to be that guy... Quote:
Considering you haven't done that yet, you might not really want to go at this from a scientific angle, heh. I will say, that people who want to discuss particulars, such as Kyube, should probably take their conversation to the right threads. Unless it specifically deals with this episode, we're kinda getting off track. I'll gladly join anyone in another thread to continue. |
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2011-02-20, 21:27 | Link #490 | ||||
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A bunch of nameless background characters that each have maybe two or three lines in the entire anime are useless for drawing comparisons to named cast members. Quote:
There was an interesting quote from Shinbo that I recently read here. "Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint." - Akiyuki Shinbo Now that strongly suggests to me that there's probably going to be a plot twist near or at the end of this anime, but it will also be a plot twist that was lightly foreshadowed all along, but very easy to miss. Once this plot twist is revealed, it will cause a lot of previous scenes to look very different in retrospect, as well as certain character comments. Now, for Shinbo's sake, I hope that plot twist isn't Kyubey ending up being the big bad of the anime, because if so, his goals here will be an epic failure. This all reminds me of an older anime I once watched that had a massive plot twist in its third last episode. A plot twist that cast new light on a few scenes from previous episodes; scenes that now come off completely differently than how I originally perceived them. That anime was Kiddy Grade. I'll discuss the plot twist in the spoiler space below: Spoiler for Major and very lengthy Kiddy Grade spoiler:
Who's to say Madoka Magica won't be like this, and Kyubey won't be like the "poor man's Lex Luthor" that I mentioned in that spoiler space above? That certainly would fit with that Shinbo qoute... Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-20 at 21:39. |
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2011-02-20, 22:07 | Link #491 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
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And the people who think QB is evil has got you beat on a numerical sense, judging by the amount of fan art drawn to portray QB as a monster. Quote:
Saying that there are certain flaws or mistakes in the theory is acceptable, but flatly refusing to accept it because of the small mistakes or not offering their own evidence, instead using a lack of evidence as proof or alternative interpretations as the truth. Like history, we have accounts of diaries, jounrals, entries, personal accounts, witnesses, documents, papers, and a ludicrous amount of sources to draw our evidence from. Even if some of the dates or names are wrong, it doesn't discount the overall direction the evidence points too. Likewise, when we observe something in the anime. Certain key scenes where a specific characters actions or lines help us form an understanding about a character's personality. This helps us to understand what the character's mentality and supposed intentions are. The theory of QB being an evil presence within the anime holds more ground than say the opposite. Every episode we have seen progressively paints QB as something more sinister, and nothing to show that he is is not evil. However, by constantly bringing semantics into the equation largely defeats the purpose of speculation within the realm of the show. It's applying the universal principle into a different reality, and trying to use it as evidence fails as a fallacy of composition, wherein something is true of the whole does not hold true for some parts of the whole. We are suppose to consider the character's personal point of view, rather than using our own. But it's fine to use our own personal views in making a prediction based on what we as viewers have observed. But just discounting those observations as a difference in interpretation makes for a poor man's way of arguing. Saying "Oh Madoka is so stupid, I would never do that", or "I wouldn't mind being indestructible, I don't know why Sayaka was so pissed", is biasing one's point of view and seeing things with rose tinted glasses. No matter what a character does, says, or hints at, despite being plainly obvious, people will just interpret it to fit their own personal view point. So it's ironic to say that the people who think QB is "evil" are the one's who should be more open minded, when you seem pretty dead set on your own position, using your "logic" and applying it to the anime. A lot of the "QB is evil" has pointed out many oblique statements made by the characters, hints, and clues the foreshadow what will happen next, then formed those theories based on it. But the "QB defense" team seems just content to say we're wrong "just because" basis. Hell Mentar's predictions have easily trumped your predictions, which is nothing wasn't very hard to do. |
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2011-02-20, 22:16 | Link #492 | ||||
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If you were in a criminal trial, you'd like people to wait to hear the full evidence, before deciding your guilt or innocence, right? Quote:
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So, I ask you, like I have asked others before, can you do the same? Will you make the exact same promise with me, to stay open minded until the series is over? Oh, and openly state now, what plausible scenarios would change your mind. If you answer nothing else, answer this. You can ignore everything else, but that that paragraph above is the most important. If, however, you feel you just can't be open-minded, feel free to say that, too. I get the feeling you don't want to admit that, though, and instead try to paint me as closed-minded, so that you feel safe being close-minded yourself. I'd be real sad if you honestly believed that, and I don't know what else I can say to convince you. Perhaps you could help me out, and let me know what I might be able to do, to convince you I am open-minded. |
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2011-02-20, 23:09 | Link #493 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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1) EULA is written down and CAN be read, it is always offered first. it's just that no one does ^^ it would be similar if QB did in fact gave out the information (maybe in a really really low voice to simulate fine print ) but just that the girls didn't listen, ignored it, or didn't understand it. but he didn't (now why are we actually using real world Law in magical setting? hmm oh well...) 2) There have been cases that even with the signed contract the signer WILL WIN in court, actually a lot. this is most often in cases where existing greater Laws takes precedent. but also if the contract itself is flawed. the highest form of course is if you prove that the contract is in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL. the Bill of Rights is in the constitution exactly because it's one of the most basic societal contract AND a lot of people don't know their own rights. and may not even think to ask questions or points, ESPECIALLY in cases regarding MINORS and those with disabilities. so with regards to your example. nope you will get a lawsuit because your infringing on a person's rights by "smacking" him and hurting him irregardless of the person asking if he can be smacked or not (don't know if who'll win tho, that's for the court to decide depending on the contract itself like why you need to smack him in the first place and other pertinent factors). Now for a couple of posts now and ever since ep1-2 I've been asking why the hell are the girls not asking QB anything, but not asking does not equate GIVING UP their rights. BTW I'm not in the QB is evil camp I'm not in QB is good camp I'm not even in the QB is a morally gray army recruiter camp I'm in the QB is QB camp,& sure as hell not going to judge without further info. (which is not to say i don't have any opinions. I definitely don't like his methods now, even if it turns out s/he/it is on the "good" side working for the wonderful side of humanity ) makes me just cringe at the amount of text walls regarding this, but its the people's right to voice their opinion in a FORUM. The amount just shows how much they enjoy the show , but can we please a have a little reservation and be straight to the point and not go circular for all our sakes ^^ please please thanks Last edited by garbage; 2011-02-20 at 23:30. |
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2011-02-20, 23:42 | Link #494 | |||
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Kaijo and I are not saying that Kyubey's a "nice guy". Not at all. He's not a nice guy. Nice guys don't do what he does. But there's a big difference between just "not a nice guy", and "evil". At least in my opinion there is. Most, if not all, of what we've seen Kyubey do so far would fit quite comfortably within the framework of an anti-hero character type. It's true that Kyubey is being somewhat deceptive in the methods he uses to contract magical girls. This is obviously not entirely fair or just for the girls that he contracts with. However, there was a major event in Star Trek that was hardly entirely fair or just to the Romulans either... Spoiler for Major Star Trek: DS9 spoiler:
The world of fiction is absolutely replete with examples of protagonists using questionable methods in order to achieve a greater good. And not always are such characters cast in an entirely negative light. So while Kyubey's actions are not nice, they are not exclusively villain actions. And Kyubey's personality, and motives, remains largely clouded in mystery, with precious little known here for sure. Are there "bad vibes" surrounding him? Yes, I can definitely see where people are seeing that. But in a concrete sense, these "bad vibes" are like circumstantial evidence. They're not really enough to justify a definitive position on a character. And, in fact, they may be a case of the writers of this anime deliberately misleading the audience in order to setup a big reveal or a big plot-twist (but one that could comfortably fit with what the plot has shown so far). Quote:
That is actually mind-blowing to me when I really stop to think about it. Characters of Kyubey's character type are typically after thoughts at most, and a lot of them have done ethically questionable things in their own right. Quote:
But what I am saying is that Kyubey simply being a bit of a dick is not enough for me to say that Kyubey is evil. "Evil" is a very powerful word. There should be pretty high standards, imo, for who gets called "evil". Look at my avatar. Look at the two non-Kyubey characters in it. Now they're evil. Is Kyubey really at their level? Based purely on what we've seen so far? While my avatar is, as I said, meant mostly in jest, it's also there in the hopes that it might spur people to ask themselves that seriously.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-21 at 00:26. |
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2011-02-21, 00:04 | Link #495 | |
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But I mainly bring up this reasoning to show why I place blame equally on Kyube and Sayaka. Both hold some responsibility in the matter. Also, good analogy with Sisko, Triple_R. That was actually one of my favorite episodes, too. Sisko actually had a habit of that. When he was chasing Eddington, Sisko deliberately played the bad guy and poisoned an entire world to get Eddington to turn himself in. Sisko was the "good" guy, and yet did a heinous act to stop a greater evil. Was Sisko evil? (and DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series ). |
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2011-02-21, 00:07 | Link #496 |
One PUNCH!
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Alright, after some thought, I've had a change of heart and the current discussion can continue... But let's try to keep the responses as short as practical, and use properly labeled spoiler tags for those that aren't. Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-21 at 00:38. |
2011-02-21, 01:35 | Link #497 | ||||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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We're not talking about rating a friggen day-long date here, it's the eventual outcome which counts. If some door-to-door salespeople push overpriced loans to penniless people to buy a house well aware that they'll never be able to pay them back, then this might very well the new houseowner's happiest moment in their life, too. And then, barely a few months later, reality will bite them in the ass, and they'll lose their house in foreclosure and be saddled with a lifelong debt. So tell me: In this example, what's more important? A fleeting feeling of happiness due to ignorance, or the lifelong feeling of despair later? Huh? Before Sayaka was involved in this whole MG mess, she was a bright, cheery girl. Now she's an emotional wreck loathing what she's become without being told, on her way to self-destruction. You can babble about "personal responsibility" or "she didn't ask" all you want, but in the end, it's the simple fact that she made a decision without knowing what she'd be getting into (she said so herself), and the MG business is about to kill her. And strangely, this is exactly what Homura warned Madoka of in ep1. She said she has seen countless MGs perish the same way, and I strongly doubt that she's been lying. This is obviously a very typical outcome, but this is NOT what QB tells them when he tries to contract. So, please feel free to continue to play corporate lawyer explaining to naive buyers why it's their own fault that they failed to read the small print. Until I see clear evidence to the contrary, I consider the MG business to be a racket to exploit unsuspecting kids created and maintained with malicious intent. The "circumstantial evidence" is way too compelling to ignore for me. |
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2011-02-21, 01:49 | Link #499 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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QB being the one with the Knowledge holds greater resp., aside from the fact that Sayaka is a Minor, and well, has known about the Magical World in lets say less than a month (any figures? anyone know how long have they been doing this?) Quote:
But yeah it's really hard with QB's contracts, nothing written , nothing sure it's not even "verbal" as a lot of times they were just doing their telepathy thing. on a different tack,all this talk of happiness balancing sadness, and rights. Has anyone considered Kyoko's father? what happened was clearly not what he wants. he wants to be helpful and wants people to listen to him and his practical views. not as mindless machines just attending because they were forced by magic. that is why he broke. clearly he never made any contract with QB, yet things were forced on him (can be considered an evil action IMHO). this might give credence to Kyoko's view that the wishes should be just for yourself. what about kamijou , sure it looks good on the surface he can play again,but what if due to his accident he would have turned out to be the next Stephen Hawkings? and actually would have been more satisfied/happier later in life with his other accomplishments? it's like in that excellent Sword of Truth book series by Terry Goodkind Spoiler for Wizard's Second Rule ( Sword of Truth):
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2011-02-21, 02:02 | Link #500 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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At end of first episode, when both Madoka and Sayaka were surrounded. Reasoning 1: We did not see the witches actually attack them at all. We don't know what would have happened if Mami didn't interrupt. Reasoning 2: Witch see Sayaka and Madoka as MGs, especially with QB in Madoka's arm. Since Mami was also in the witch's domain, it may also mistake them as her. Attacking MGs is a form of self defense. At end of 4th episode, when Madoka was pulled into the witches domain in the store room. Reasoning 1: The witch may not want to kill Madoka but merely trying to display her guilt back to her like a mirror, for what purpose we do not know. If a witch can kill Mami by biting her head off with such ease, there is no reason Madoka would survived so long if this witch had the intention of killing her. Reasoning 2: Witch sees Madoka as MG and attacking as form of self defense. They may possess an affinity toward potentials MG candidates and unable to tell the difference between them. ~~~ Now I personally do think the witches were attacking in both cases. But no matter how strong the on screen portrayal points to that view, you can always argue purely based on technicality and claim that it can be open to interpretation. Just like no matter how many hints, trends and events demonstrate how QB manipulates, deceives and appears to have good grasp of human psychology by taking full advantage of human weaknesses from MG candidates, we have people that believe his words as honest and true. They cannot see that one can lie by telling truth. Just because facts were given when asked, it doesn't equate to giving an honest answer. The whole QB is not human, therefore not subject to human morality fail to address how QB was able to successfully manipulate and deceive humans into contracting with him. Without a good understanding of humans, how can one know how to manipulate and deceive them? At best one can say QB does not agree with or care about human morality but understand the concept enough to employ it against humans to do his job. Devils are not human either but they cannot be labeled evil? Then there is matter of degree where some label QB's manipulations and deceptions equal to that of a shady salesman. There is a big difference between a shady salesman that sells junk goods to con you out of some money vs a drug dealer for example that profits from people's addiction. The action of the first salesman is a minor offense and the latter is a major one. If QB is a shady salesman, then dealing with literately lives and souls of young girls is worse then selling drugs. People are ready to make any excuse or arguments to defend their position on QB and yet on witches they make no such attempts because defending witches with the same type of reasoning may invalidate their defense of QB. They readily take screen evidence and declare witches are evil and is a threat to humanity and ignore similar evidence where QB is concerned.
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Last edited by SagaraSouske; 2011-02-21 at 02:15. |
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