Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Kimidori]

Originally Posted by Meltyred

Kirei would raise Rin to be a fine person, that would be best.

what......

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'm not a Fate novel reader, but Kariya knew Sakura and Rin well because they were his friend Aoi's children, and he was very fond of them and vice versa. Sakura was a girl he had spent time with and felt affection for. If saving Sakura was his main goal, that would not automatically equal him being willing to do the same for anyone at all, because Sakura was not just anyone to him. It is entirely possible that he was acting to save her because of the affection he held for her, rather than it having to be because of ulterior motives involving her parents.

One of his main reasons he did what he did was because he felt guilty that his walking out (understandably) at that time subjected someone else to that horrid fate, given the Makiri 'heirs' are primarily Zouken's puppets.

We can't ever say if he would do this for anyone else given that he stays far away from his old home and goes straight to Aoi, Rin, and Sakura when he visits Fuyuki. So he'd have no way of telling any other child/person got the treatment, given how low key the Matou are and how completely seperate from the magic world he is at the moment.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Meltyred

But if Kariya won at this point, it wouldn't change Sakura's fate since she has no legal guardian that will live long time anyway. (So she would be adopted by zouken, again.)

Why would Zouken have adopted Sakura? He has no interest whatsoever in her once he's got the Grail. Further, why couldn't she be returned to her mother and sister? Aoi is still alive, even if not sane.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Why would Zouken have adopted Sakura? He has no interest whatsoever in her once he's got the Grail. Further, why couldn't she be returned to her mother and sister? Aoi is still alive, even if not sane.

Because her mother is insane and she needs a guardian there would a change Kotomine would become her guardian.

[SJCrew]

"Change of plans - I shall use a race to settle things with the girl!"

I have to admit, that made me smile a bit, but..

"You really are the renowned King of Knights, flower of the battlefield!"

What...didn't you say you renounced her as a king because of her self-sacrifice?

"He was never interested in his opponent's power or wealth."

Mhm. But a scene ago, he was impressed enough by Saber's display of power/spirit (whatever the fuck you want to call winning a close race is) to reacknowledge her as the King of Knights. Oh whatever, we'll just ignore the obvious inconsistencies in character writing because Waver said so.

"Without destroying or degrading them, he sought to conquer souls."

.....

And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.

And lol, I predicted exactly what Kirei would say at the end of the episode.

"What are your thoughts, Kirei?"

"More wine."

lol.

Terrible episode, 3/10.

[Altima of the Gates]

And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.

The problem with that theory is that the anime leads you to believe that he is actually somehow fine, when he isn't. People who have been in a lot of pain over a long period of time do not tend to handle stress well. Moreover, he did say that he didn't do it, and she, instead of actually believing her childhood friend, probed him as if he was the killer. So, like often happens in real life, things can and do take a turn for the worse in tense situations like this. No one was thinking clearly, and people acted rashly.

Especially when Kariya had already told her that he was fighting for Sakura, she immediately interrogated him as if he was fighting for the Makiri's desire for the Grail, which he wasn't, and she knew he wasn't. So while I will say he did the worst thing possible here, I give him the leeway of actually having brain damage. Aoi was described in the novel as being the perfect wife for a magus, because she believes and obeys unquestioningly, and that was not meant to be all positive. I doubt highly she would have listened to Kariya at this point, unless he dragged her to the Matous and she saw Sakura in the pit. It'd have to be that graphic and eye-opening.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

The problem with that theory is that the anime leads you to believe that he is actually somehow fine, when he isn't. People who have been in a lot of pain over a long period of time do not tend to handle stress well. Moreover, he did say that he didn't do it, and she, instead of actually believing her childhood friend, probed him as if he was the killer. So, like often happens in real life, things can and do take a turn for the worse in tense situations like this. No one was thinking clearly, and people acted rashly.

Especially when Kariya had already told her that he was fighting for Sakura, she immediately interrogated him as if he was fighting for the Makiri's desire for the Grail, which he wasn't, and she knew he wasn't. So while I will say he did the worst thing possible here, I give him the leeway of actually having brain damage. Aoi was described in the novel as being the perfect wife for a magus, because she believes and obeys unquestioningly, and that was not meant to be all positive. I doubt highly she would have listened to Kariya at this point, unless he dragged her to the Matous and she saw Sakura in the pit. It'd have to be that graphic and eye-opening.

And the light novel explicit states his brain isn't working correctly anymore because of the worms.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

"You really are the renowned King of Knights, flower of the battlefield!"

What...didn't you say you renounced her as a king because of her self-sacrifice?

"Kishi-Ou" is a nickname for Saber. It has nothing to do with thinking she's a ruler. Gilgamesh thinks of her as a piece of furniture and still calls her that way sometimes. Her self-sacrifice isn't quite the reason why Rider doesn't respect her as a king, that's more the reason why he wants to 'save' her.

Her wish is why he can't respect her.

Originally Posted by SJCrew

"He was never interested in his opponent's power or wealth."

Mhm. But a scene ago, he was impressed enough by Saber's display of power/spirit (whatever the fuck you want to call winning a close race is) to reacknowledge her as the King of Knights. Oh whatever, we'll just ignore the obvious inconsistencies in character writing because Waver said so.

While power is important, in the end, what Rider's prioritizes is the human factor and bonds. He likes Saber (and Lancer) more than he likes Gilgamesh (even if he respects Gilgamesh more), and she's less powerful. You said so too: her spirit.

Originally Posted by SJCrew

"Without destroying or degrading them, he sought to conquer souls."

.....

That's been established since season 1. Someone needs to re-watch.

Originally Posted by SJCrew

And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like..

Kariya's brain is not functional. He didn't even recognize Aoi. Clearer in the novels. I think the anime made his design too pretty rather than nuclear explosion victim who can barely crawl and only lives by magic. He was clawing his face in this scene in the novels. This part was weak in adaptation.

[SJCrew]

I criticize Rider and Thess shows up - right on cue!

"Kishi-Ou" is a nickname for Saber. It has nothing to do with thinking she's a ruler. Gilgamesh thinks of her as a piece of furniture and still calls her that way sometimes. Her self-sacrifice isn't quite the reason why Rider doesn't respect her as a king, that's more the reason why he wants to 'save' her.

Her wish is why he can't respect her.

Your explanation doesn't match up with the actual dialogue. Firstly, read that quote you skipped over, which confirms that he intended to accept Saber in full because of that one race. "I will use a race to settle things with the girl." That's exactly what happens, and they have no further interaction in the series. Also, the first thing he mentions in his partnership proposal to Gilgamesh is the Gate of Babylon being useful to his soldiers. From these examples, I can gather that power is the deciding factor to determine who Iskandar would partner with even if he disagreed with them. (Yes, he and Gilgamesh do share an instance of firm disagreement, as seen in episode 14)

As for the relationship between Saber and Rider, Gilgamesh laughed when Saber told them of her intentions, but it was only when she explained her methods of kingship that Rider became vocal. That is what he mentions time and time again throughout the series.

Episode 14: "That light comes from her having taken her people's hopes all upon herself. Its brightness is what makes it tragic. ... It is too painful to look upon."

Her wish is never mentioned again until the end of the series.

While power is important, in the end, what Rider's prioritizes is the human factor and bonds. He likes Saber (and Lancer) more than he likes Gilgamesh (even if he respects Gilgamesh more), and she's less powerful. You said so too: her spirit.

Series wise, this is unfounded. There is no scale measuring up how much he likes one character as opposed to another other than what he says. He criticizes Saber because he pities her. He respects Gilgamesh, and well, there is no more important a sentiment between two men.

That's been established since season 1. Someone needs to re-watch.

You seem to have confused my ellipses for "Rider didn't say that!" He just made an exception for Saber, who he quite clearly degraded in Episode 11 to the point of speechlessness. In fact, his character seems the most inconsistent when he's around Saber.

I don't fully agree with his philosophies either. Ideally, there should be a compromise between Saber's ideals and Rider's ideals where people should not be expected to sacrifice themselves to ensure that the king gets what he wants and that a king should not have to sacrifice their humanity in order to rule. Rider was a great leader and people wanted to follow him. I get that. But his mindset of entitlement is a bit twisted. Gilgamesh was the perfect opponent to make him realize his folly. If Rider were to have survived that defeat, I'm betting it would have humbled him quite a bit. He's a wise man, so I'm pretty sure he knows what it means to be outmatched.

Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's dead body...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.

Spoiler:

And curiously enough, we discover mid-Episode 25 that Aoi somehow ends up surviving to become a basket case and cripple for the rest of her life. Not sure what the point of that was.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.

Spoiler:

And curiously enough, we discover mid-Episode 25 that Aoi somehow ends up surviving to become a basket case and cripple for the rest of her life. Not sure what the point of that was.

This is how it went in the light novel.

Spoiler for Light Novel - Act 14 - Kariya’s Church Scene:

And then –

“……Kariya...-kun?”

– At that moment, until he sensed the presence of the new visitor who had just stepped into the chapel, until he was called from behind by that familiar and lovely voice – Kariya had not noticed anything at all.

Turning back in a stupor, Kariya could not grasp at all why Aoi Tōsaka was still standing there. If his brain had been functioning properly, he probably would have wondered why he was being called by Aoi of all people, and why she had visited this place when there was no reason at all for her to do so. And he probably could have gone even further back in his train of thought to the one person who would have been able to position Tokiomi’s body at the chapel beforehand – it had to be a human - and been able to guess without difficulty the identity of the person who had killed Tokiomi.

“A….u…..”

However, at the height of his confusion, in a state where he could not mouth legible words, Kariya could only moan uselessly. The instant he staggered back, the corpse he had been carrying in his arms fell onto the chapel floor with like a sack. Thud. For a long time, Aoi stared at the figure that had once been her husband. Staring, without twitching a muscle.

“Aoi...-san…… I……”

Without uttering a syllable, Aoi slowly approached Tokiomi’s body as if being drawn to him. For reasons unknown, Kariya felt overpowered and retreated further, but was obstructed by an obstacle just a few steps later. Rigidly still as if passing judgment unto him, it was the altar of the chapel.

Bending her knees to the floor, Aoi lifted Tokiomi’s face up. With no place to hide, Kariya could only watch her. He could not understand why Aoi did such a thing. – No, he did not want to understand. Why she did not even spare a glance at him, her childhood friend, but continually fixed her eyes on the body of Tokiomi; what the meaning of those tears falling down her face was – Kariya obstinately rejected comprehension, and because of that, he could not utter a single word.

If memory served – he was supposed to never make this person – whom he loved above anyone else – cry again, and to fight for her even at the cost of his life.

If that was the case, then this woman sobbing in front of him right now – who was she? If he were to accept the answer, wouldn’t Matō Kariya fall to pieces?

She did not look at Kariya. As if ignoring the air and all else, tears poured out from her to her husband’s body. She, the tragic heroine, was exactly at the center of the world as its axis of revolution. Having regarded her in that way, Kariya was an existence devoid of all meaning, like trash on the stage or a stain in the background. Kariya was terrified of the delusion that his position and his very existence were erased. He even felt the impulse to scream to catch her attention. But not a sound could come out of his dry throat.

Nevertheless, before long, when he was looked straight in the eye by Aoi – who had finally lifted her head up – Kariya finally understood: Ignorance was a greater compassion; if he could disappear from the world at that instant, it would be a far greater relief.

“……So now it’s as if the Matōs had gained the Holy Grail, right? Happy now, Kariya-kun?”

It was a familiar voice, but in a tone he had never heard before. That was because his gentle and kind childhood friend had never hated or cursed anyone in front of Kariya before.

“I – but, I – “

Why must he be blamed? Tokiomi Tōsaka was the cause of all the evil. When that man was not around, everything was supposed to turn out well. First of all, why had he died in a place like this? It should have been Kariya asking questions instead.

“Why…..?”

However, not even allowing time for Kariya to reply, she asked him back instead.

“So after snatching Sakura away from me, the Matōs are still not satisfied? Of all people, you killed this man in front of my own eyes…… Why? Did you really hate us so much?”

I don’t know I don’t know.

With a face just like Aoi's; with a voice just like Aoi's; why was this woman directing such seething enmity and cold killing intent towards Matō Kariya?

Kariya was supposed to have saved Aoi. He was supposed to have obtained a future for her beloved daughter. Then why was he being blamed? Who on earth was this woman?

“That guy – it’s his, fault – “

Pointing at Tokiomi’s corpse with a shaky hand, Kariya tried to correct Aoi in a loud voice.

“If that man would just, disappear – no misfortune would befall on anyone. Aoi-san, Sakura-chan – I thought you’d be, happy –“

“Stop talking nonsense!”

With a demonic expression, the woman shouted.

“You, what do you know! Someone who has never loved anyone before!”

“– Ah –“

With a snap –

– the decisive cracking sound caused Matō Kariya to collapse.

“I…”

I have a person I loved.

Someone warm and gentle; someone whom I want to be happy, above everyone else.

If it’s for her sake, even my life was worth it. Because I felt this way, I had to, endure, endureendureendureendureendureendureendureendureen dureendureendureendureendureendure to this day whatever pain or hardships so being denied with no chance of explaining myself so for whose sake that I am willing to die for GO TO HELL you’re lying you’re lying you’re lying the one I love most is without a doubt certainly I –

“For me…… the person…… I love ……”

While murmuring with a scraping sound, Kariya’s fists tightened.

In order to heap denials upon those words that denied his everything; in order to shut her mouth up, he tightly squeezed her throat.

The woman opened and closed her mouth, gasping for oxygen like a fish that had left its tank – and yet it seemed to Kariya as if she was trying to form words to further abuse him, which infuriated him all the more.

If I don’t shut her up, everything will end. Everything I’ve done to this day will be meaningless. There’s no way I can allow that to happen.

As a matter of fact, Matō Kariya’s madness was the last fortress left to rescue him. In spite of that, he had even missed that lowliest aid at the last moment – the face of the woman rapidly turning deathly pale due to lack of oxygen was too similar to the image of the beloved woman he cherished so much in his heart – no, it was the very woman herself. At last, Kariya realized that.

“……Ah.”

At the instant both hands loosened up, a sound slipped from Aoi’s mouth.

Collapsing onto the ground with a thud, she had fainted, not budging an inch. Lacking even the sound judgment to differentiate the living from the dead, Kariya thought that just like Tokiomi, she had died.

“Ah, ah……”

He gazed at the hands that had just choked Aoi with all their might. Someone more important than anything else; someone who was the very meaning of his life – those fingers that had plucked that someone away stiffened like they belonged to someone else. But without a doubt, there was no way to deceive himself – those fingers belonged to him.

Like a peal of thunder, he realized. Those fingers squirming so shakily were just like the crest worms creeping about Sakura’s skin.

“AaaaaAAAaaaaaAAAAAAhhhhHHHHHHhhhHH…!”

He clawed at his broken face.

He tore his dried-up hair.

A scream escaped his throat. Whether it was a shriek or a wail, he could not even understand that.

Losing the last bit of sense in him, with only his animalistic instinct, Kariya desperately sought to flee; stumbling, he ran away from the chapel.

The man who had lost everything was greeted by the pitch-black darkness of the starless night.

[Thess]

Going to send the Rider answers in a PM, because they contain spoilers?

Originally Posted by SJCrew

Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.

Spoiler:

And curiously enough, we discover mid-Episode 25 that Aoi somehow ends up surviving to become a basket case and cripple for the rest of her life. Not sure what the point of that was.

chaos_alfa already gave you the novel quote. Kariya's strain wasn't only emotional, his organs (including his brain) weren't functioning. Look at this description of him in the initial battle (episode 5) to see how the anime tone down his suffering (the manga portrays it very well):

Spoiler for novel:

Trying for a long time to stabilize his breathing, Kariya collapsed on his back on the freezing asphalt.

Blood covered his body. Most of his capillaries have exploded. Blood slowly flowed non-stop from the cracked parts of his skin.

A long time ago, Kariya once saw the victim of a nuclear power plant explosion struggle against disease. Right now, his appearance and situation was no different than the victim prior to his death. His body of flesh has already been destroyed. But there are Crest Worms spread across Kariya’s body. Its magecraft extended his lifespan and allowed him to wiggle.

That was in season one.

Of course jealousy and other factors played a role, but the man wasn't in a state to sip tea calmly. He was practically a zombie.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Thess

Going to send the Rider answers in a PM, because they contain spoilers?

Boo I want to see the discussion

Edit: The discussion could also be moved to this thread:

Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread

[Thess]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Boo I want to see the discussion

I didn't want to get banned because I was talking about the Fate route and spoiling a CD Drama. Sorry.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Edit: The discussion could also be move to this thread:

Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread

Unfortunately, I didn't save my replies. So I can only show you once they answer.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Thess

I didn't want to get banned because I was talking about the Fate route and spoiling a CD Drama. Sorry.



Unfortunately, I didn't save my replies. So I can only show you once they answer.

Could you move the discussion to the Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread when you get them?