International Saimoe League 2011

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

They liked Mami enough in Hong Kong.

True , but also consider that average English proficiency level in Hong Kong is much higher compared to China and Taiwan. There are exceptions to my generalization, and perhaps Tomoe Mami is an exception for Hong Kong, just like Sakura Kyouko is an exception for mainland China.

[Last Sinner]

ALL HAIL LELOUCH! ^^

And on the other hand, Homura is probably in ISML 2012. *headdesk*

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by wontaek

It is not just Taiwan, but probably most of the people who can speak Chinese that seems to dislike Homura and other Madoka Magica girls, with exception of perhaps Sakura Kyouko.

\

I only used post-preliminary results because 1.) The series did not conclude until around the end of preliminaries and 2.) free for all match ups tend to end up different from what a 1v1 would. But if you check the Madoka character exhibition matches, you'd see that Taiwan tends to vote against Madoka characters quite heavily...Even at times where China votes 65% in favor of a Madoka character, Taiwan is closer to a tie between characters, or even a slight favorite for the opponent...and a couple of them were vs. characters that didn't even make it past nominations, let alone preliminaries or the regular season.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I only used post-preliminary results because 1.) The series did not conclude until around the end of preliminaries and 2.) free for all match ups tend to end up different from what a 1v1 would. But if you check the Madoka character exhibition matches, you'd see that Taiwan tends to vote against Madoka characters quite heavily...Even at times where China votes 65% in favor of a Madoka character, Taiwan is closer to a tie between characters, or even a slight favorite for the opponent...and a couple of them were vs. characters that didn't even make it past nominations, let alone preliminaries or the regular season.

Well, when we finally get the world map ready for the Male Tournament Final results, you will see that China , along with Taiwan, voted against Homura by similar percentage.

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by wontaek

It is not just Taiwan, but probably most of the people who can speak Chinese that seems to dislike Homura and other Madoka Magica girls, with exception of perhaps Sakura Kyouko.

Spoiler for 3 world maps relevent to my statement:

I fail to see the connection. In the first map Russia supported Holo by near 50% of the votes, yet I would not make an argument that they somehow hate Saber and/or Homura, not to mention the series hadn't even ended by the time if I recall correctly. The second map is the most relevant one, and even then it's more of a testament of Nadeko's strength, managing a 50% on Japan of all places (I'm still eager to see how did Homuhomu do on Japan this time, as this is even a somewhat similar case, given Hanakana). And the third map has too many variables to assess something reliably, and Mami in Hong Kong actually got the second highest winning percentage out of areas with a substantial amount of voters, if I'm not mistaken.

And I also don't understand the connection between language and voting trends, unless you're trying to make a point about Chinese subs or something.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by ppaaccoojrf

I fail to see the connection. In the first map Russia supported Holo by near 50% of the votes, yet I would not make an argument that they somehow hate Saber and/or Homura, not to mention the series hadn't even ended by the time if I recall correctly. The second map is the most relevant one, and even then it's more of a testament of Nadeko's strength, managing a 50% on Japan of all places (I'm still eager to see how did Homuhomu do on Japan this time, as this is even a somewhat similar case, given Hanakana). And the third map has too many variables to assess something reliably, and Mami in Hong Kong actually got the second highest winning percentage out of areas with a substantial amount of voters, if I'm not mistaken.

And I also don't understand the connection between language and voting trends, unless you're trying to make a point about Chinese subs or something.

Perhaps this map might convince you

[ars89]

congrats to Lelouch

[Ithekro]

Looks more like the Filipinos are heavy against Homura.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Looks more like the Filipinos are heavy against Homura.

I guess it is easier to say only 4 countries are really for Homura, USA, Russia, Korea, and Japan. My bias probably is due to the fact that most of what I hear and see is from 3 of the 4 countries listed above.

[Ithekro]

Well you have places with the majority of the voting population in ISML.

I pointed out the Philippines only because they had the highest precentage against Homura at almost 2/3rds against her. Though I have no idea what precentage of ISML the Philippines would represent.

[RegalStar]

I don't think the difference proves much. There were other regions with higher voting precentages for Kuroneko, and in any case it's not a significant difference over other regions.

In any case, I think it's best if judgment is reserved for next year, when we can see more performances by Homura with different opponents. As ppaaccoojrf stated, it may simply be that Chinese people like Kuroneko more than Homura. I know that PRC certainly like Saber a lot (38/47 maps in regular seasons), and Taiwan likes their Nadeko too (36/47, which is fairly high once you take the outlier that is Korea out of picture).

Originally Posted by ppaaccoojrf

And I also don't understand the connection between language and voting trends, unless you're trying to make a point about Chinese subs or something.

There is no real point as far as I know. It's no mystery that certain characters command more/less votes from certain regions. Look at Holo or Sora.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

In any case, I think it's best if judgment is reserved for next year, when we can see more performances by Homura with different opponents. As ppaaccoojrf stated, it may simply be that Chinese people like Kuroneko more than Homura. I know that PRC certainly like Saber a lot (38/47 maps in regular seasons), and Taiwan likes their Nadeko too (36/47, which is fairly high once you take the outlier that is Korea out of picture).

Ah! Korea is a world of its own when it comes to ISML tournament voting. For one thing, according to survey we conducted at the beginning of 2011, Korea's female voter percentage was almost twice that of country that had 2nd highest female voter percentage among countries that filled out more than 50 surveys. ( http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/f...tart=20#p54780 ) In this male tournament final, about 80% of Koreans who reported their gender claimed to be Female. No other country comes close to this. Even Korea's Best Moe Tournament had less percentage of females in past 5 month.

Now for little stat talk. Are we sure we can take out Korea in the discussion for being an outlier when it may sometimes be nation with 3rd or 4th highest vote total ?

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Perhaps this map might convince you

That one's good evidence, just not enough given that they're not the only regions to have a majority against her. In fact, those aren't even the highest percentages against her, but then again, I would assume that they still mean more votes than the Philipines and Australia (I don't know though).

-As to what I said earlier in the thread about her performance in Japan, it does seem fine, especially considering her opponent, so never mind.-

Originally Posted by RegalStar

There is no real point as far as I know. It's no mystery that certain characters command more/less votes from certain regions. Look at Holo or Sora.

Regions, yes. But not languages, as far as I know. And I would argue that it is quite an interesting mystery as to why, but that's another matter entirely.

Edit: @wontaek Wouldn't Best Moe's regular (annual?) male moe tournaments have a hand in this? Or it's the other way around and that's what made those tournaments happen in the first place?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by ppaaccoojrf

Regions, yes. But not languages, as far as I know. And I would argue that it is quite an interesting mystery as to why, but that's another matter entirely.

Think in terms of shared culture or history. Geographical proximity or sharing language would mean greater cultural and historical interaction between the people, and similar culture will likely result in similar preference when it comes to the characters.

Edit: @wontaek Wouldn't Best Moe's regular (annual?) male moe tournaments have a hand in this? Or it's the other way around and that's what made those tournaments happen in the first place?

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean here. I do know that most of females and good chunk of males that voted in KBM this year regularly voted in ISML. For some reasons in the ISML male tournament, there was increase in female voters while decrease in male voters from Korea. If you mean how Moe tournaments got started, Japanese Saimoe was the first, Korea's Best moe followed and was the first to make offer full scale English support, Korea's Super Moe Tournament was the first international event that had character from all time participating, and ISML was inspired by Super Moe Tournament and evolved to what we have today. If you are asking about something else, please tell me so I can give you answer you are looking for.

[RegalStar]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Ah! Korea is a world of its own when it comes to ISML tournament voting. For one thing, according to survey we conducted at the beginning of 2011, Korea's female voter percentage was almost twice that of country that had 2nd highest female voter percentage among countries that filled out more than 50 surveys. ( http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/f...tart=20#p54780 ) In this male tournament final, about 80% of Koreans who reported their gender claimed to be Female. No other country comes close to this. Even Korea's Best Moe Tournament had less percentage of females in past 5 month.

Now for little stat talk. Are we sure we can take out Korea in the discussion for being an outlier when it may sometimes be nation with 3rd or 4th highest vote total ?

That statement was supposed to mean something like "Taiwan has a pretty high Nadeko support rate, even though it's not the highest region due to Korea having an abnormally high support rate for her compared to the rest". I guess the term "outlier" doesn't really apply here.

In any case, my point is that it's too soon to claim that China and Taiwan hates Homura with only four or five maps (most of which are not 1v1 to boot), since it's possible that their opponents just garner more support in those regions.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

That statement was supposed to mean something like "Taiwan has a pretty high Nadeko support rate, even though it's not the highest region due to Korea having an abnormally high support rate for her compared to the rest". I guess the term "outlier" doesn't really apply here.

In any case, my point is that it's too soon to claim that China and Taiwan hates Homura with only four or five maps (most of which are not 1v1 to boot), since it's possible that their opponents just garner more support in those regions.

Well, I guess we have reached the limit on conclusions we can draw from only so few matches. Let's see what happens in 2012 prelim

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Think in terms of shared culture or history. Geographical proximity or sharing language would mean greater cultural and historical interaction between the people, and similar culture will likely result in similar preference when it comes to the characters.

I can get behind regional trends because they're easy to spot by just looking at the distribution maps. For the language argument, I don't think there's enough (or any) data, since to prove a relation with language and trends you'd have to do something like compare individual European countries with their ex-colonies.

Originally Posted by wontaek

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean here. I do know that most of females and good chunk of males that voted in KBM this year regularly voted in ISML. For some reasons in the ISML male tournament, there was increase in female voters while decrease in male voters from Korea. If you mean how Moe tournaments got started, Japanese Saimoe was the first, Korea's Best moe followed and was the first to make offer full scale English support, Korea's Super Moe Tournament was the first international event that had character from all time participating, and ISML was inspired by Super Moe Tournament and evolved to what we have today. If you are asking about something else, please tell me so I can give you answer you are looking for.

No, I meant that, to my understanding (as I don't really follow it, I might be mistaken) there's a male moe tournament in KBM every year (or two years?), so I wonder which one is the cause and which one the consequence, between this and the unusually large female ratio of Korean voters.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by ppaaccoojrf

I can get behind regional trends because they're easy to spot by just looking at the distribution maps. For the language argument, I don't think there's enough (or any) data, since to prove a relation with language and trends you'd have to do something like compare individual European countries with their ex-colonies.


No, I meant that, to my understanding (as I don't really follow it, I might be mistaken) there's a male moe tournament in KBM every year (or two years?), so I wonder which one is the cause and which one the consequence, between this and the unusually large female ratio of Korean voters.

1. Geographical proximity also means ease of linguistic interaction. Still, I agree that we don't have enough matches to get stat analysis result with good enough confidence.

2. KBM's male tournament started in 2007 as a practice for female division. It just is that Female fan club member's activism and organization is better than male members, which lead to the male tournament being dominated by female voters in the middle of 2007's male tournament. From 2008, KBM male tournament also offered English support. As for the 80%, this should be credited more towards the fervor and organization skills of female anime fans in Korea who spread the word much better and quicker compared to their male counterpart. You can read more about KBM male tournament in the following threads

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...16#post1406516

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...76#post2166376

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by wontaek

1. Geographical proximity also means ease of linguistic interaction. Still, I agree that we don't have enough matches to get stat analysis result with good enough confidence.

But then the argument is in favor of regional trends rather than linguistic trends, linguistic interaction just being a by-product of the same regional proximity. To put this in perspective, linguistic voting trends would mean that, say, Latin America voting similarly to Spain and Portugal would be as likely as European countries voting similarly to each other. Note that I'm not saying either is the case, given the already acknowledged lack of information.

Originally Posted by wontaek

2. KBM's male tournament started in 2007 as a practice for female division. It just is that Female fan club member's activism and organization is better than male members, which lead to the male tournament being dominated by female voters in the middle of 2007's male tournament. From 2008, KBM male tournament also offered English support. As for the 80%, this should be credited more towards the fervor and organization skills of female anime fans in Korea who spread the word much better and quicker compared to their male counterpart. You can read more about KBM male tournament in the following threads

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...16#post1406516

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...76#post2166376

Sounds to me like the fact that Korea was the first to have a regular male tournament is the consequence of having such an organized group of female supporters. Which is a shame.. since now I'm in the dark as to why the females are more organized and have more presence in Korea than in other countries.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Looks more like the Filipinos are heavy against Homura.

Much to my dismay.