AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Nanoha/Vivid Franchise

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-02-19, 17:57   Link #421
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Added now is that the movie doesn't have Graham in it and it looks like that would be a big plothole (aka: how does a disabled person take care of herself... and a 9 year old at that)
Wow what? That's some pretty nasty understimation of disabled people xDU I'm pretty sure there's lots of disabled guys out there several times more capable than us in pretty much anything xD
__________________
May 29 2010-2019

...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 17:58   Link #422
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Wow what? That's some pretty nasty understimation of disabled people xDU I'm pretty sure there's lots of disabled guys out there several times more capable than us in pretty much anything xD
LOL I bet they are overaged.
__________________
OS-tan Collections (temporary): https://discord.gg/Hv2rBs3
bhl88 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:03   Link #423
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 41
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
LOL I bet they are overaged.
You mean not 9 year old orphan girls who were slowly dying, right?
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:12   Link #424
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
You mean not 9 year old orphan girls who were slowly dying, right?
The slowly dying thing should be taken more time has the Wolkenritter weren't awakened. Seems it was mainly the consequence of the Book of Darkness abandoning it's passive mode o_o
__________________
May 29 2010-2019

...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:14   Link #425
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh, I'm sorry, I though we were talking about Graham's relevance to the plot.

But then, even if I look beyond Graham... nope, still essential to the plot.



.... Yes? And? What does attachment have to do with relevance to the plot?



.... Except the overall plot doesn't work if you just remove Graham.

Again, short list. No Graham means:

No Hayate living alone.
No Book of Darkness responding to Hayate's loneliness.
No Hayate wishing to just live with the Wolkenritter.
No Lieze twins.
No stopping Chrono from arresting Shamal with the book.
No stopping Nanoha from blasting Vita into submission.
No stopping the Fate/Signum fight.
No stopping Nanoha and Fate talking sense into the Wolkenritter on the hospital roof.
No completion of the Book of Darkness by absorbing the knights.
No tricking Hayate into thinking she was betrayed by her friends.
No Hayate triggering the Book's activation in despair.
No Durandal to seal the book's movement to allow the transfer.

The only way to fix these plotholes is to rewrite them. But if you are forced to rewrite scenes, that just shows how essential the scenes, and thus the character that steered them, are.

Nothing subjective about it.
You still don’t see why he is just a role. In the end it doesn’t matter how Hayate lives alone. All she really needs is money, and that can be easily solved. The rest we will need to see how it goes. You are not even open to the possibility that this might happen and actually it happen already, the movie A’s remove this crucial character, so why can’t we just wait and see of this makes sense? I mean is not just me talking about what the character looks like to me but also what it looks to the author who take him out without problems. If he was so needed then he should still be there, right?

I am always saying the character fits the plot but that is not one of its crucial parts. Like Amy or Randy or any of the TSAB staff. They just fit a role. Amy’s role is just to monitor Nanoha and Fate and handle the consol. I think any other character could fit that post and we lost little there. Graham is the same, and in no way this means he doesn’t belong there, just that he is not the key part.

Besides Hayate will be alone even without Graham. I don’t think he kill her family and then plot to make her get the Book. So Graham is needed for Hayate to feel lonely after losing her parents? She could be with a new family and still feel loneliness and emptiness and get the book. Again we are not going to get anywhere, can we just move on?
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:17   Link #426
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You still don’t see why he is just a role.
Except every character is "just a role". Every character serves a role. But according to you, we don't need roles. Which I guess means we don't need characters.

Except if we don't need characters, then we don't have a goddamn story, now do we?
__________________

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-02-19 at 19:32. Reason: Please don't
Rising Dragon is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:27   Link #427
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
My point is that Graham is just the trigger to all those events. Nothing about his personality or character make him pivotal to fill such role and those elements (yes, ALL of them) could be justified in a myriad of ways.
The argument was never about whether Graham is a well-developed character (because he is indeed lacking in that aspect), the argument is about how essential Graham is to the plot.

And the "you can replace Graham with another general with similar motivations." argument escapes me.

Yes, you can replace Graham with another general.

I can also replace Nanoha with Suzuka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You still don’t see why he is just a role.
What do you mean by "just a role" anyway? I've seen you toss around that line as if it means something special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
In the end it doesn’t matter how Hayate lives alone.
Really? Because until the sound stage translations rolled in, that was one of the biggest questions around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
The rest we will need to see how it goes. You are not even open to the possibility that this might happen and actually it happen already, the movie A’s remove this crucial character, so why can’t we just wait and see of this makes sense? I mean is not just me talking about what the character looks like to me but also what it looks to the author who take him out without problems. If he was so needed then he should still be there, right?
Indeed. And I am dreading the plotholes. The early reviews are... not encouraging. But they do confirm my earlier statement: The events were rewritten. They now happen differently. This means the events could not simply be taken out, but had to actively be changed in order for the movie to make sense.
Keroko is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:33   Link #428
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Indeed. And I am dreading the plotholes. The early reviews are... not encouraging. But they do confirm my earlier statement: The events were rewritten. They now happen differently. This means the events could not simply be taken out, but had to actively be changed in order for the movie to make sense.
The only one I know who can take care of her would be Dr. Ishida.... Or Signum, Shamal, Vita and Zafira... but how they work without their papers being checked is....
__________________
OS-tan Collections (temporary): https://discord.gg/Hv2rBs3
bhl88 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:34   Link #429
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
Well the movie does change events not related to Graham like Fate arriving at Earth early so that alone is a major chance not related to Graham and his plots. So really the changes come also from different story telling all together. And I know what you mean: how Hayate can live alone in that house? Well it just needs to be stay in one line really: “Her parents die and a distant relative sends her money”.

When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him. But Nanoha is not the same. In the end Nanoha, no matter what one can think of her, does shows her personality to the audience and steps in to act and be in camera all along. Her nature and images come to mind when thinking of the story and is really not that easy to talk about replacing her as it is with less memorable and a little more passive characters as Graham was made.
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:37   Link #430
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I can also replace Nanoha with Suzuka.
I get your point but i reeaaaally doubt Suzuka, being how she is could fill Nanoha's spot just as well xDU Mhh... i could replace Nanoha with Sakura Kinomoto instead xD
__________________
May 29 2010-2019

...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:41   Link #431
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Then it will not be Nanoha without her friendship destruction beam.
__________________
OS-tan Collections (temporary): https://discord.gg/Hv2rBs3
bhl88 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 18:58   Link #432
mega1987
GregOS Offline
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Philippines
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well the movie does change events not related to Graham like Fate arriving at Earth early so that alone is a major chance not related to Graham and his plots. So really the changes come also from different story telling all together. And I know what you mean: how Hayate can live alone in that house? Well it just needs to be stay in one line really: “Her parents die and a distant relative sends her money”.

When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him. But Nanoha is not the same. In the end Nanoha, no matter what one can think of her, does shows her personality to the audience and steps in to act and be in camera all along. Her nature and images come to mind when thinking of the story and is really not that easy to talk about replacing her as it is with less memorable and a little more passive characters as Graham was made.

A friend of mine is kinda had it with you.

if you're gonna flame MGLN, go to a forum that does that. or go to 4chan and flame MGLN there...(and waits for someone to blast you with their own flame-throwers).

we got haters here but they enjoyed the show.

And I think You haven't tried understanding the whole thing and tried to find some materials except watching it as a way to waste time.
__________________
Darwin's nominee are best for laughs.
MGLN "Befriending" shows love thru superior firepower (Zenryokou Zenkai!)
Gundams are your worst nightmare in the battlefield.
SRW beats all foes.
JAM Project pwns all!!!

And I can't still make fanfic without restarting from the start when new ideas comes in...
mega1987 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 19:20   Link #433
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
When I say a role I mean he is just there to fit those plot holes you bring if he were not there Keroko. He is just feeling the gasp as the force behind the masked twins. And since he is not a well develop character is easy just to think the story without him.
Given his relationship with said masked twins? Not quite. You see, what little of his character that was developed ties him with the twins rather intricately.

A familiar is kind of a life-and-death bargain.

But yes, his "role" was to be the driving force behind all the events that occurred. That much is true. And in that role, he is essential. Without him filling that role, the story has to be rewritten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I get your point but i reeaaaally doubt Suzuka, being how she is could fill Nanoha's spot just as well xDU Mhh... i could replace Nanoha with Sakura Kinomoto instead xD
Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
Keroko is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 19:24   Link #434
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 41
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
...

I am throwing my money at you, but it keeps bouncing off the screen.

Please, write this!
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 19:25   Link #435
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
Imagine the shitstorm that would happen when Fate tries to attack Eins in front of Suzuka.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 19:26   Link #436
mega1987
GregOS Offline
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Philippines
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh trust me, I can. She'll send dodgeball spikes around the globe knocking out Fate and jewel seeds alike, but I can.
I'm sending mah munni but the thing is... they're all deposited in a bank and I haven't activated my online banking privilage....
__________________
Darwin's nominee are best for laughs.
MGLN "Befriending" shows love thru superior firepower (Zenryokou Zenkai!)
Gundams are your worst nightmare in the battlefield.
SRW beats all foes.
JAM Project pwns all!!!

And I can't still make fanfic without restarting from the start when new ideas comes in...
mega1987 is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 19:42   Link #437
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Keep in mind that if Hayate didn't have the support of Graham, she would have been out on her ass in the street (no money). Probably picked up and stuffed in a Japanese orphanage. Maybe adopted. But she's separated from the book, then.

Even if she somehow kept the book, without money, she gets no health care, meaning no Dr. Ishida. Which means no one is looking and finding out about how the disease is moving up her body. Which means the Wolkies, when they activate, aren't driven to start trying to complete the book.

In other words, without Graham, A's never happens.
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 20:17   Link #438
Archon_Wing
On a mission
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 40
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
The nature of fiction makes the majority of non major protagnist roles are interchangeable. An individual is but one person. If I didn't exist, there would be someone else to fill the gap in this thread. But...

It wouldn't be the same. You can excise Gil, and have a similar story, but the story is fundamentally different. The issue is how much can you change before you have a completely different story, and a lot of people think it would be. It might be of equal quality, but the motives and themes are going to change, particularly around Chrono's involvement in this story.

It is fine to say that Gil's character had issues and was definitely the least fleshed out story of A's with rather questionable closure. I hope the intent to remove him is of a meta one, of which the TSAB would not want people to know about his involvement, but that would assume the movies were having this clever gimmick in mind. I just don't know if they're clever enough for that.

To summarize, Gil is vital for having A's as we currently know it.
__________________
It doesn't sound like my love is getting to you.
I will not lose anymore; I will not give up.
More passion than hope, much deeper than despair.... Love!

Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 20:33   Link #439
Lhklan
The Unpronounceable
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clock Tower
Hey guys, what...

... This is STILL going on? The fuck?
Lhklan is offline  
Old 2013-02-19, 20:34   Link #440
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
Hey guys, what...

... This is STILL going on? The fuck?
We're masochistic that way, clearly.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.