Hanasaku Iroha - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[ID555]

Nice bit of change in surroundings, best episode in a while for me. Ohana wanting to drag her mother back for a proper review was a little weird, but just the kind of impulsive decision she makes. I think she knows it won't do any good.
Still a little gray on the mother - she could definitely treat Ohana better, on the other hand her situation's understandable too. She's definitely a little messed up though, with her nonchalance towards everything.

[Antiscian]

I found the role of the mother as 'the one problem Ohana's magic can't overcome' (so far, at least) a very well-played idea. I don't really judge fictional characters in any sort of moral framework, so I think as a character, Ohana's mother is a good one.

This may also be the literary critic in me over-reading far too much, but when Ko tells Ohana 'Not to be beaten by Cola', I couldn't help but notice that he pronounces 'Cola' with an emphasis on the 'Ko' syllable, and Ohana says his name right after that as if to highlight the fact, which may mean that in some way the whole conversation about how she dilutes her cola is a metaphor for her relationship with Ko.
Actually, it's not totally far-fetched since Ko described their relationship in ep1 using a soup metaphor.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

At least if she visited the place she could incorporate factual information into the review. Get some truth out there anyway.

Balderdash, the entire endeavour would have been a waste of time. How can she say "The food was exquisite and full compliments to the chef" but give the inn a 5 out of 10, "the waitresses were nice and service was great" but again give it 5 out of 10. No matter if she went to the place or not, the inn would have gotten a 5 because she was told to do so.

[Irisiel]

I just had a thought, if Ohana tells Grandma that her mother was the reviewer, then the Inn alliance the area has going on can possibly fight or even sue the magazine (for libel, maybe?) since they are absolutely sure that the reviewer did not stay at their inns (assuming that most know Natsuki since she grew up in the area), furthermore, even if she only did it because the higher ups asked her to, they still could claim that she has a bias against her childhood home since she didn't get along with her mother, which would explain the low ratings of all the inns in the area.

And that's not going into the dishonesty of her bosses to bow to another business that is just starting up. They, and the new business, could also be targeted and at least be smeared all over the pavement if this manages to get out (and no one would take the magazine's ratings seriously again, resulting the loss of jobs for its journalists, because seriously, journalism is reliant on trust; that the readers can trust the journalists to do their job and tell the truth. They are not a PR group working for this new hotel that isn't even built yet! [So now several of the cancelling guests will needlessly miss the festival, unless the hotel manages to open in the nick of time.]).

However, I think that maybe Satsuki wrote about Kissuisou in how she views her mother (old-fashioned, bland and not suited for existing today).

But seriously, having grown up around journalists and writing newspaper reviews of children's movies when I was a child? This episode just hurts. At the very least Satsuki could have apologised to Ohana (wouldn't have cost her a dime, since she has already thrown out her pride), and then explained that she wont be the first or last to do this, and that dishonest reviews crop up all the time.

Though it would hardly make up for damaging the tourism in her hometown until this new hotel starts up (seriously, all those extras that are usually hired at restaurants during high tourist season? Unless that hotel is running, none/ only a few of them will have a job, since ALL the inns in the area is losing guests. Those reviews don't just affect the inns and their staff [and job morality], but also all connected businesses such as florists for destination weddings, souvenir shops, cafés, guided tours, museums, and so on).

So, if she isn't found out, she manages to damage the entire area around Kissuisou. If she's found out? Her magazine and the new hotel's potential employees will suffer.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ipodi

Professionalism means following the customs and mores of the profession. Satuski is in a shady magazine where writers are told to write either flattering or unflattering articles. Her job is akin to that of a paparazzi. There is nothing unprofessional about being a paparazzi as long as one follows the laws.

I disagree with your analogy here.

The paparazzi sell sensationalism and celebrity rumor-mongering because that's what its readership wants. I doubt that even your most passionate tabloid reader believes everything that they find in a tabloid. They know it's largely unsubstantiated rumors, most of which are probably false, but they just love all of that Hollywood controversy.

However, the readership of the magazine that Satuski works for presumably wants honest and knowledgeable reviews of Inns (amongst other stuff).

So I stick with my movie critic comparison. As somebody who reads and watches movie reviews from time-to-time, I expect and want honest and knowledgeable critiques. I think that most readers and viewers of such reviews do.

Ohana's mom (and the people she works for) are doing a disservice based on what their customers want. That's unprofessional, imo.

And that's her job. The higher-ups have ordered her to write an unflattering article. If I misinterpreted this, then I take it back.

That's not her job. That's the role she's been given by corrupt higher-ups. There is a difference. Her job, officially, is to write proper reviews of Inns.

If failing to get your child a right Christmas gift is considered a parental failure, then: 1. kids today are horribly spoiled; and 2. kids today need Satuski's brand of parenting where you get to learn to st!u.

Of course it's not a big deal in and of itself. But given the strains put on the relationship between Ohana and Satuski by Sauski's job, you'd think Satuski would want to make up for that by at least getting some things right.

The impression I'm getting of Satuski isn't that she's a genuinely caring mom who nonetheless is forced to let her daughter down some times due to her job (much like, say, Tiger in Tiger and Bunny), but that she doesn't even really care about her daughter.

Actually, there's a good comparison, imo - Satuski and Tiger. Both work in far less than ideal situations. Both rely on their mother to take care of their daughter. But the differences between them are absolutely key, imo. You can tell that Tiger is sympathetic to his daughter and feels badly about it all. Satuski shows no remorse at all over the situations she puts her daughter in.

I admire whistleblowers who put their conscience above all else. But I don't disapprove anyone who lacks such courage. While it does give us a sense of smugness to accuse others of complicity,

It's not about "smugness".

It's about realizing that the only way the world ever gets better is by not tolerating things that shouldn't be tolerated.

Originally Posted by Blaat

Balderdash, the entire endeavour would have been a waste of time. How can she say "The food was exquisite and full compliments to the chef" but give the inn a 5 out of 10, "the waitresses were nice and service was great" but again give it 5 out of 10. No matter if she went to the place or not, the inn would have gotten a 5 because she was told to do so.

Who said that the Kissuiso is perfect?

There are legitimate critiques that you could make of it.

The uniforms aren't that great (a fact that a previous episode brought up, and which was never resolved permanently), and the place genuinely seems understaffed at times. I also wouldn't assume that the food is downright "exquisite".

Also, a numerical grade only conveys so much. For a lot of people, the write-up is more important.


So I disagree with you. The endeavor would not have been a waste of time.

[Haak]

Utterly incredible episode. At first I thought it was going to be another episode of Ohana solving a problem with energetic optimism but it turned out to be something else entirely. The relationship between Ohana and her mother is great to watch and it was heartbreaking to see that that Ohana still doesn't know how to deal with Ko.

[EroKing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree with your analogy here.
Ohana's mom (and the people she works for) are doing a disservice based on what their customers want. That's unprofessional, imo.

Quoted for truth, no one can disagree with that in any way.

That new hotel coming up most likely hired them to write those awful reviews leading to the customers of Kissuiso cancelling. Did Satsuki have no idea that her review could end up costing the jobs and livelihood of all those people? That was downright evil. Agreeing with Irisiel that the Kissuiso's review was totally based of some personal grudge Satsuki has against her mother. Same reason why she does not want to meet her.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

Quoted for truth, no one can disagree with that in any way.

That new hotel coming up most likely hired them to write those awful reviews leading to the customers of Kissuiso cancelling. Did Satsuki have no idea that her review could end up costing the jobs and livelihood of all those people? That was downright evil. Agreeing with Irisiel that the Kissuiso's review was totally based of some personal grudge Satsuki has against her mother. Same reason why she does not want to meet her.

Yeah, I think that Satsuki has a personal grudge against her mother too.

I'm not sure I'd call this "downright evil", but it is pretty bad. If something like this broke, it would be a massive scandal, speaking to Irisiel's point there.

[ipodi]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree with your analogy here.

The paparazzi sell sensationalism and celebrity rumor-mongering because that's what its readership wants. I doubt that even your most passionate tabloid reader believes everything that they find in a tabloid. They know it's largely unsubstantiated rumors, most of which are probably false, but they just love all of that Hollywood controversy.

However, the readership of the magazine that Satuski works for presumably wants honest and knowledgeable reviews of Inns (amongst other stuff).

So I stick with my movie critic comparison. As somebody who reads and watches movie reviews from time-to-time, I expect and want honest and knowledgeable critiques. I think that most readers and viewers of such reviews do.

Ohana's mom (and the people she works for) are doing a disservice based on what their customers want. That's unprofessional, imo.

This speaks nothing about Satsuki's professionalism. The publication is unprofessional, not the person.

What readers want is irrelevant to how professional one is. Some magazines are outstanding and are honest, others will pursue "dirtier" means to attract advertisements. You go out and do your job if you want to get paid. Or, you can stand up and quit. Both are professional ways to deal with the situation. Of course, the latter way gets more of our respect.

The paparazzi's analogy is apt in the sense that Satuski is doing a unsavory job but is following all the rules. So she is professional.

That's not her job. That's the role she's been given by corrupt higher-ups. There is a difference. Her job, officially, is to write proper reviews of Inns.

Then it's her job. I have no idea what the distinction is. Her job is to write reviews. There is no indication that she is working for an unbiased trade publication.

Of course it's not a big deal in and of itself. But given the strains put on the relationship between Ohana and Satuski by Sauski's job, you'd think Satuski would want to make up for that by at least getting some things right.

Actually, there's a good comparison, imo - Satuski and Tiger. Both work in far less than ideal situations. Both rely on their mother to take care of their daughter. But the differences between them are absolutely key, imo. You can tell that Tiger is sympathetic to his daughter and feels badly about it all. Satuski shows no remorse at all over the situations she puts her daughter in.

Not "feeling bad" about your job is not a parental failure. Driving your kids to do drugs and abusing your kids are failures. Let's not blow this trivial oversight over the proportion.

It's not about "smugness".

It's about realizing that the only way the world ever gets better is by not tolerating things that shouldn't be tolerated.

Of course it is. Until we have gone through the same situation, faced the same dilemma, and have the courage to do the honorable thing, condemning someone for not making the hard decision is smugness.

[ipodi]

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

Agreeing with Irisiel that the Kissuiso's review was totally based of some personal grudge Satsuki has against her mother. Same reason why she does not want to meet her.

The dialogue in Ep. 11 quite clearly states that the motivation to write a unflattering review comes directly from the higher-ups in the publication.

[Arabesque]

Another excellent episode.

Pretty much everything about this episode, from the visuals to the audio, was well done. Kanae Ito's performance was very powerful, be it when the Ohana force was in full swing, or when she began to crack, down to when she finally gave in to her fears. She along side Aoi Yuuki have successfully wormed into my heart as part of my top 10 VA's.

Much like Triple_R had said in the past, Ohana shows her steel as a shonen hero by being stubborn as all of hell and forceful towards anything she disagrees with, no matter who that maybe. Of course, much like every time she tries to fix things by her bullheadedness, she doesn't quite succeed, but she does make me fall in love with her more and more with her cheerful and always positive attitude.

Still, I was surprised by how much her mother had been such a jerk. I mean yeah, that's sort of a given considering what we had already seen from her, but I had hopes that she would at least have a somewhat decent bone in her. I guess Ohana's morality doesn't come from her mother.

Other interesting parts of this episode include how Ohana seems to have taken witting her thoughts on paper from Nako/Minchii. It really does show that the six past months had a profound effect on her mannerism. Also, I liked how the episode had alluded to how much running seems to be involved in Kohana seriously, it's like every time these crazy kids meet face to face on screen they need to end it with running away from each other lol.

Originally Posted by Peanutbutter003

Now, is this one gonna run for one cour, take a break, then comes back for the second cour? If so, is next week's the end of this cour?

No it wont. It's a full on week by week (minus holidays) series, episode 1 to 24-26.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Oh, and the scenery was as gorgeous as ever. This is the TV series equivelent of a Shinkai film.

Yeah, I have to admit, even when it's a given that every episode is already high budgeted, PA Works are really pulling all the stops here. Sure it's the 10 anniversary show, but this is still impressive.

Originally Posted by acejem

This is what I initially envisioned Hanasaku Iroha to be, not some same-old, generic slice of life that's going to focus on slice of life/comedy but something with a dramatic bang that explores the theme of coming of age. This episode delivered that in spades. Now, please for the love of god keep it up and not go back to the slapstick nonsense that was episode 3 and 7.

Maybe I'm one of the few who still think in this manner, but I honestly think that every thing from the slapstick, comedy to the drama are all part of the show and what helps make episodes like these work. Even this episode included minor comedic parts that helped it balance out the drama so it wouldn't fall into complete melodrama.

From episode 3, I had the impression that this show is aiming to be a an enjoyable, feel good show about a girl who is starting to grow up while she undergoes both happy moments and difficult ones.

And more of episodes like 7 please. I want to have the rest of the cast get a chance at the spot in the limelight, Tomoe had one and I ended up loving her after I had an unfavorable impression at first.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

*Gapes* Minko is actually growing on me, now! (Never thought THAT would happen! She's been a bit too caustic for my taste.)

Did she do anything in this episode though?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And that is what Ohana's mom is guilty of: A complete and utter lack of professionalism.

I don't disagree with anything you had just written (in fact, I largely agree with it) but this part, where I have to side with ipodi on this point. I agree that what she is doing is unethical, and shows a disregard for any sort of pride in journalism, but considering the sort of magazine she is working in, it's not unprofessional. Had she done this in a magazine that prides itself with being truthful and delivering quality pieces, then I would agree that it would be unprofessional. But since she isn't ...

Your comparison with Wild Tiger is an interesting one though, but I think it has to do with Kotetsu just being a better person.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Haak

...it was heartbreaking to see that that Ohana still doesn't know how to deal with Ko.

My feelings exactly. I still think the writers are jerking us around, and they will end up back together, but next week intensifies the trolling, if that's what it is. On the one hand, Ohana wants to be independent. On the other, she still inwardly depends on Ko. But she isn't able to call it love. Yet. Frustrating, but psychologically reasonable.

I wonder if Minchi brought Tooru?

Unfortunately, I basically loathe Ohana's mother. She is certainly just doing her job as she is commanded to, so I don't hold that too much against her -- even though she probably derived some satisfaction from dissing her grandmother. Professionalism involves doing things you don't agree with, sometimes. Ethics and professionalism are not always the same. But she didn't even let Ohana know she had left that guy. She is irresponsible in every way except keeping her job. The way she let Ohana go and asked for more wine was fairly disappointing.

Things like Tooru/Minchi finding Ohana on the street, or the mother turning out to be the writer are just ridiculous. Plot necessities plucked from nowhere.

But I still loved the episode. Mainly for Ohana, who was well portrayed both by the animators and by Itou Kanae, with subtlety and force.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So I disagree with you. The endeavor would not have been a waste of time.

And I disagree with you, seriously "uniforms aren't great" oh yeah that's a good criticism of an inn that's exactly what the higher up wanted. The writer was told to give a negative review of the inn, no matter if she went or she most likely had to make things up.

1. Sit in the office, make up a negative review on the spot.
2. Visit the place (and your mother whom you don't like), wasting a day & night and make up a negative review on the spot.
3. Be an idealist, try to tell the truth get fired and be on the street with no food and roof over your head.

The real funny thing is though... Ohana's mother grew up at the inn so she knows the place better than Ohan does.

[deadite]

That's the problem though we shouldn't ever compromise our ideals.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ipodi

This speaks nothing about Satsuki's professionalism.

Yes, it does.

A professional reviewer's real bosses are the readership. That's especially true in the internet age.

The publication is unprofessional, not the person.

Both are unprofessional, in this instance, in my opinion.

What readers want is irrelevant to how professional one is.

I totally disagree.

The paparazzi's analogy is apt in the sense that Satuski is doing a unsavory job but is following all the rules. So she is professional.

No, she's not. One of the core rules of a reviewer is, you know, to actually take in (watch, visit, etc...) whatever it is that they're reviewing.

Not "feeling bad" about your job is not a parental failure. Driving your kids to do drugs and abusing your kids are failures. Let's not blow this trivial oversight over the proportion.

It's not trivial when it becomes a continuous problem.

Of course it is.

No it's not.

Do all of us have to personally be employed in politics in order to legitimately object to corruption in government?

Of course not.

You're setting a ridiculous standard, in my view.

Originally Posted by ipodi

The dialogue in Ep. 11 quite clearly states that the motivation to write a unflattering review comes directly from the higher-ups in the publication.

A person can have multiple motivations for one act.

[Irisiel]

I hardly think Satsuki's bosses dictated word for word how she should write her reviews, just to make the inns out to be bad and rate them low. I think that Satsuki, when stuck with having to spin the reviews up from nothing but her experience growing up in the area (probably the reason why she was picked; she would not need to visit the place to add a few details to make the reviews seem legit), and when she thought of Kissuisou, especially about bad things about Kissuisou, she thought about her mother and wrote the review based on how she views her mother.

Gossip magazines sell gossip, and do not pretend to sell anything else. Girls' magazines have fashion, make up, body shaming disguised as confidence boosting and bad sex advice. Women's magazines has reviews of moisturisers, a bit less body shaming, fashion and articles written by successful women. Equine magazines has articles about horses, current events, tips on how to spot problem behaviour, maybe some comics about horses, articles about equestrians and so on.

Inn/Hotel/Travel magazines have reviews supposedly to help the readers pick a good vacation, interviews with travellers, tips about what to bring, how to survive a hot/cold/damp/dry place, notices about bargains to be made, places to visit and so on.

Sure, these magazines might have some fiction in the form of novellas which release a chapter an issue, but their reviews are not supposed to be fiction.

Had Satsuki been at the inn, she could have complained about rude greetings (from Ohana and Grandma), overworked staff, late food, rude staff (her family interacting with her in a familiar and antagonistic way) and whatever else might have cropped up.

[Austin1]

I can't wait for Ko to tell Ohana off. He deserves someone that actually cares for him and that other girl seems really nice and sweet. Ohana is just using Ko whenever she is feeling sad or depressed.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by ipodi

Love her or hate her, but I think the situation depicted in this episode is very mature. Many adults have a job that they cannot be proud of, but they are doing it to support their kids. This is what Satsuki does - and she accepts it. Some people will feel bad for what they have to do and look for another job, other people will resign to their situation and reconcile their moral qualms for the sake of their family and kids (or for themselves).

This is the reality. And this series didn't sugarcoat it by having Satsuki apologizing to anyone for her work. This is what I would do. I put in the hours to get the job done. I get my paycheck. I am not going to apologize to anyone for your moral issues as long as I am not breaking any laws. A job gives us a sense of responsibility, and we don't always have the luxury of keep searching for a job that will fit us. Sometimes, in the real world, we have to change ourselves to fit our job.

At the same time, even with all her failings, Satsuki still supports Ohana's own beliefs and the path she has chosen by bringing her snacks. Yes, the parenting style depicted here is a very adult, and a cold one, with no tears or hugs. Yet, who is to say that it's not the reason why Ohana has grown to be a headstrong and an independent teenager?

Indeed, Satsuki's situation is realistic, but that doesn't excuse anything. What bothers me the most isn't that she is doing a dishonest job, as you said, you sometimes don't have any choice, but how nonchalant she is about it. She doesn't give a damn whether her false review cost some people their business or their jobs. Rather than mature, I believe Satsuki's stance on is cynical. She truly behaved like a cynical bitch in front of Ohana.

Anything is ok as long as you're not breaking any laws, you say? Doesn't accepting bribes constitute crime? That is obviously what Satsuki's boss did. Satsuki was well aware of it yet she still accepted to write those reviews, that makes her a willing accomplice. She could get in serious trouble if this story got out.

[Reckoner]

Nothing much for me to say this episode other than it was positively perfect. It was great by all accounts and I enjoyed it all the way through. 10/10

Lets hope they keep it up.

[Tsuyoshi]

Absolutely wonderful episode through and through, one of the best so far as a matter of fact imo. Ohana's short trip back to Tokyo served to show just how many pent-up feelings she had left behind when she was _forced to_ leave. Her problems with her mother and how nothing had changed since Ohana left Tokyo. On top of that, new problems arising with Ko stemming from her understanding of how she had treated him, albeit unknowingly and how Ko's situation with this other girl is a stark reflection of her own relationship with him.

First thing I want to talk about is Ohana's mother. She's just created a whole new definition of "bitch" and it's not looking good at all. She has no feelings for Ohana, that much is clear. For starters, consider the fact that she split up with her broke bf not long after she had Ohana leave for Kissuiso, and never bothered to tell her daughter anything. And then she has the guts to say she raised Ohana, even if it was through what I consider dirty money, when she never did anything but neglect her and invariably caused her to do all the housework. Even now, she has no respect for her, what she's trying to do, the message she's trying to convey despite her best efforts, but all she can think about is her work. Despite not liking it, she's quite content with it. Tbh, I don't even know why Ohana's wasting her time with her. I'd have deliberately forgotten about having a mother like that ages ago, given the chance.

The other thing I wanted to mention is her situation with Ko. Her short return to Tokyo made her realize just how much she actually cares to have Ko close to her, how his confession had indeed touched her more than she may have thought, and her surprise at the intimacy the other girl displayed toward Ko bothered her more than it would've if Ohana considered Ko a friend. Granted, it's been implied repeatedly through the series Ohana valued Ko as a very important person in her life (not neccessarily romantic), but this ep showed that subconsciously, she wasn't closed to the idea. Her holding in these feelings are what's causing things to fall apart around her and would explain her breakdown at the end of the ep when she saw a very familiar face she could find comfort in (no, not Tohru, you shippers )

(....ok, maybe him but Minchi is at least just as important under the circumstances)

Originally Posted by ipodi

This speaks nothing about Satsuki's professionalism. The publication is unprofessional, not the person.

It's not just the publication, but the writer is also unprofessional for writing a piece without even knowing the full story of it. How could Satsuki actually write about something she didn't know about? That was why Ohana was getting at, and her uncaring attittude toward Ohana's argument and Ohana herself doesn't help her image of professionalism. It's in fact what I call "fake professionalism" because she creates an image of professionalism about her because she's got a job and writes articles when all she's doing in fact is following the higher-ups' dictations without question. Being a professional means knowing what YOU are doing, not what others would have you do. The fact she wrote the article the way someone else wants to write it essentially makes the article their work and not Satsuki's, and the fact the writing came out of her hand makes her just as guilty.

Originally Posted by ipodi

What readers want is irrelevant to how professional one is. Some magazines are outstanding and are honest, others will pursue "dirtier" means to attract advertisements. You go out and do your job if you want to get paid. Or, you can stand up and quit. Both are professional ways to deal with the situation. Of course, the latter way gets more of our respect.

What readers want is everything when it comes to magazines. If it didn't matter, then the magazine would lose pretty quickly. And in this instance, the readers (the inns who're being reviewed) want an honest opinion about their establishment and the establishment of other inns because they're essentially competitors, and they would like to know who'se doing better, why, and what they can do to work around it. Giving a false impression to everyone means you can't trust the magazine. Honesty is professionalism. Relying on dirtier means for the sake of advertisement is not what I call professionalism because that's closer to forcing in an audience rather than genuinely capturing their interest.

Originally Posted by ipodi

Not "feeling bad" about your job is not a parental failure. Driving your kids to do drugs and abusing your kids are failures. Let's not blow this trivial oversight over the proportion.

It's important because Satsuki has been doing what she's doing to Ohana her entire life, and abandoning her when she did, and then returning to Tokyo without even letting her know shows how much she actually cares for Ohana.