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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 4 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 48 | 36.36% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 46 | 34.85% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 28 | 21.21% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 6 | 4.55% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 2 | 1.52% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 0.76% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.76% | |
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-01-29, 06:52 | Link #201 | |||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Nutbladder 9:06, while in Mami's apartment: "I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm so weak!" It should be obvious even for you that these words are directed at Mami. But for what would she be APOLOGIZING? She never did Mami any wrong. The only explanation which seems plausible to me is that she's apologizing for _being unable to resurrect her_. She can't become a MG and use her wish for that, because she can't control her fear. This isn't "pure conjecture", it's simple logical deduction. It's not explicitly spelled out yet - presumably because the scriptwriter would prefer to avoid a discussion of it at this point. Knowing how he usually operates though, I'm pretty sure he will tackle the issue when the time is right. Quote:
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Even Sayaka herself realizes that her _true intention_ behind her wish here is fundamentally selfish. And the discrepancy between her true desire and the formal wording of her wish is going to wreck her. That's so obvious that it doesn't even count as a prediction anymore. It's flabbergasting to me that you're even trying to debate the point. Quote:
The bet in itself was about the aftermath (that's also what you expected, if you're honest), I clarified it once more before you got cold feet and added the "in the end run is also fine" clause. Since I always said that I give Mami a revival roll in 12, what's the grounds of the bet? Quote:
Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-01-29 at 10:56. |
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2011-01-29, 07:15 | Link #202 |
Stupidity is Bliss.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In Hancock's Heart
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man, i don't want mah madoka to have a plothole. so, i'd like to think that gen's being subtle with the reviving-mami wish. Probably madoka's considering it alrdy albeit quite vague to see. ah, don't really want holes in this awesome of a show! DX maybe, next episode will have it brought up..XDD
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2011-01-29, 07:37 | Link #203 |
my sides are in orbit
Join Date: Nov 2007
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there's something that has been bothering me since at least episode 3, and is really bugging me in episode 4. mainly, that this show have the flow and the character chemistry normally appearing in shounen (and seinen) series. let's see what if everyone are gender bent...
you ("Madoka") are just an ordinary guy with some pals that hang around with you ("Sayaka and Hitomi"). one day, you get this offer from a strange guy ("Mephistopheles Kyubey") that says that you can have super cool powers, but you must fight monsters. most shounen protagonists would immediately agree to the deal. and then you get into the monster-hunting superhero job. since you're a new guy, you have an ace showing you the ropes ("Mami"). this ace is super awesome, and he's brightly idealistic. he's all about how superheroes are making the world better, one monster offed at a time. however, an antihero appear. unlike the ace, he's jaded with all this monster-hunting job, and warn you that not everything is black and white. he also warn you that the ace is hiding something from you. (i think i've Seen It A Million Times... if i'm not mistaken, something exactly like this happens in the old FPS Deus Ex). the ace brush it aside, saying that the antihero is simply a messed-up dude best left alone. and then the ace that you akogare very much dies messily in a mission. fortunately (or conveniently, perhaps), the antihero dude comes to save your arses. he then point you to the ugly truth of being a superhero. you begin to question things, but you dont get any word from the higher up strange guy that recruited you (perhaps instead you get a cold glare). it's all too fishy. anyway, you can't get out of this mess. you need the power for your significant ones' sake, just like you need money to pay the bill. so you're forced to go through the gauntlet of monster-hunting as things spiral out of control and more horrific truths are revealed about the monsters, truths that ultimately invalidate the moral high ground of the superheroes. ADDENDUM #1: Oh, and to make things even merrier, there's this psycho guy who was once a superhero in traditional sense, but now he's just in it for the super cool powers and the sadism he can dish out ("Kyouko"). he's not above robbing other superheroes of their power either. the higher-up recruit guy tolerates him, wtf. that's it. well, i'm so not watching gay version of Madoka x Homura...
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Last edited by scr; 2011-01-29 at 08:03. |
2011-01-29, 08:06 | Link #204 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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This series has been quite good so far. I'm well in the camp of Madoka being a Magical girl in the past though I have a theory that goes a bit beyond that.
While I'm fairly confident in Madoka and Homura meeting in the past and their positions being reversed but I can't help wondering about the wish. It seems to me that the wish wasn't akin to "make Madoka a normal girl" but more likely to be one closer to "I want to be Madoka". In short, I believe Madoka and Homura switched lives and experiences and this happened fairly recently ago. Most likely at the start of ep1 is the start of Madoka's new life. I can't see Kyuubi waiting long to regain a powerful Magical girl. If I'm right then this might explain why Homura seemed upset at Sayaka becoming a magical girl. Sayaka was her friend, not Madoka's. Madoka's happy life was in fact Homura's life. I mainly came up with this theory after rewatching episode 1. In it I number of things Homura said struck me. When she going down the hallway she knows exactly where she's going most likely cause she somehow knows the school well. She says to Madoka "there's no way you'd want to become someone else" in reference to if Madoka valued her friends and family. She said "You'd lose everything you have" and I think Homura knows this first hand. I'm also pondering if Homura is in fact Madoka and Madoka is Homura. They could have switched names and possibly faces also.
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2011-01-29, 08:07 | Link #205 |
Stupidity is Bliss.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In Hancock's Heart
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@scr
L0L. you mean that almost gay relationship that nano-fate has? XDD i say, madoka x homura might end up that way. XDD it won't be really gay but close to it..XD that can still be interpreted as friendship although a very strong one.XD |
2011-01-29, 08:22 | Link #206 | |
Mou Nakanai~
Fansubber
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Moon (where Feena at <3)
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Other than that, I have no objection to your speculation so far. I do expect surprises though, otherwise it's no fun, right? |
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2011-01-29, 09:40 | Link #207 | ||
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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2011-01-29, 10:35 | Link #208 | |
Uncaring
Join Date: Sep 2010
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This is why i find teaching inferenced to those who keep falling back to "they never stated it outright!" to be a waste of time. Inference uses logic and empathy which most of those types fail completely. |
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2011-01-29, 11:32 | Link #209 | ||
Twintails are wintails!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 43
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First half can best be described as "Oh the drama!".
It should be pointed out that Kyuubee does nothing to pressure Madoka and Sayaka into becoming magical girls. You could think he'd try to do that now that Mami is gone, but he doesn't. When Madoka says she doesn't want anymore, he simply walks away. That's proof he's not evil - which of course doesn't automatically mean he's good, but at least it means he's neutral. In the second half, Makoka finds her friend under the influence of a witch. She follows her to an empty factory, where Sayaka and many mores still, also under the influence of the witch, want to commit mass suicide. Only Madoka's curageous intervention of throwing away the bucket of chemical agents they wanted to use saves them. Running away from the angry mob, Madoka flees into an empty room and locks the door. There however, she's kidnapped by the witch, which would've been the end of her - if it wasn't for magical girl Sayaka to save her and kill the witch. After the fight is over, we get to know that Homura had been watching from the sidelines all along. She just hadn't given a damn about the people trying to commit mass suicide. If it wouldn't have been for Madoka's intervention, they would be all dead now. Also, after Madoka told her she didn't want to be a magical girl anymore, Homura dropped the "caring" facade and stopped giving a damn about her as well, so she didn't save Madoka after she was kidnapped by the witch this time. If it hadn't been for Sayaka to become a magical girl just in time to save Madoka, then Madoka would be dead now as well. That's a definite proof that Homura isn't one of the good guys. She never cared about Madoka in the first place, all that she was interested in is that Madoka doesn't become a magical girl, so she doesn't get any competition. She doesn't give a damn about the people which are under the influence of a witch and are trying to commit suicide either, and so doesn't try to save them. Also, she seems to be angry at Sayaka. I wouldn't be surprised if she openly attacked Sayaka in the future (actually, I would be surprised if she didn't.) Finally, we see a new magical girl who is more evil than Homura and even plain out states that she's going to attack Sayaka. With two others going to attack her, she'll have a hard time Perhaps the two others attacking Sayaka will be what makes Madoka become a magical girl, so she can help Sayaka fighting against the other two girls. Quote:
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2011-01-29, 11:59 | Link #210 | ||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Your summary omits the long part where Homura tried to comfort Madoka. Why would she do that? Quote:
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2011-01-29, 13:00 | Link #212 | |||||||
Banned
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So, we're watching a show filled with idiots. I suppose if you dumb down your cast, you can make any plot fit. Don't like it? You can't prove me wrong. you'll respond with "we don't know!" and I'd entirely agree: we don't. Let me toss another example at you: Dragonball Z. We all know the dragonballs can grant any wishes, so what happens when Vegeta and Nappa are on their way to Earth? Krillin wishes for the Saiyans to be killed. It was an obvious wish, and someone had to address. For all it's faults, and the somewhat awkward explanation that followed ("I can't fulfill wishes beyond the power of the one who created me") made some sense. They at least addressed it, and put some constraints on wishing. Our lovable DBZ heroes are smarter than Madoka and crew. Toriyama is looking like a better writer than the writers of Madoka. Quote:
So let me postulate another explanation: Madoka is simply saying "I'm sorry. I'm so weak" because she can't keep her promise to be an MG since she's scared now. She's not strong enough to overcome her fear of death. So she's apologizing to Mami for not being able to live up to the expectation. Or perhaps apologizing because she didn't become an MG sooner so she could have helped Mami. Or apologizing that she was still too weak in her heart to become an MG at that time, and kept putting it off. There are more explanations than yours. I don't know the correct one, but at least I can admit that. I'm really waiting for next episode, or one down the line, where Madoka suddenly goes: "Huh? I can revive Mami with a wish?" thus proving she was never thinking about the possibility before now, when you're trying to tell me she is. I'd make that prediction, but I'm also wondering whether the show will actually address it, or leave it as an elephant in the room. Quote:
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It's flabbergasting to me that you just make up your mind and decide "This is the way it is; I've deduced everything and I can't possibly be wrong; and you're wrong for even thinking differently." Quote:
Everyone is unique, shaped by their own preconceptions and experiences. Thus, everyone sees something different, infers something different, and is confused why anyone else would see something else. You ever see the "old woman/young woman" picture? Which did you see first? Did you ever see two people argue about it really was? That's what's going on now. Quote:
See, this is another example where you see one thing, and other people see something different. Yet, everyone else has to be wrong, and you have to be right. Can't you just say, "Hmm, yeah, that could be the case, too. I suppose we won't really know until they tells us?" Is it really that hard to admit that other people's inferences could be correct? Quote:
I personally think some of what Himeji said isn't quite right or true, but I can at least admit he might be right. There's no real evidence one way or the other. Can your mind be just as open? |
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2011-01-29, 13:13 | Link #213 | ||||
Twintails are wintails!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 43
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Same here, he didn't di any pushing as well. Sayaka made the wish all by herself, because she didn't want her friend to suffer any longer. Quote:
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Homura's thoughts were probably: "I'll just do it as usual: watch and wait until the witch has killed the other magical girl before I step in. That way, not only I get rid of a competing magical girl, but also the witch is already weakened, making it easier for me to kill her and reap the rewards all by myself." While that worked fine for her many times already (she mentioned that she's seen countless magical girls die) and also last time, when she waited until Mami was killed (she could've ward off that chain ribbon easily if she wanted), this time, she underestimated Sayaka, thinking: "Sayaka is a total n00b, the witch will wipe the floor with her." However, Sayaka proved to be able to do it, which is why Homura was so angry when they found her standing there afterwards. Quote:
Sayaka was angry at her for good reason, like threatening Madoka, or that little arrogant speech she gave at the end of ep. 3. With voicing her clear intent of beating up Sayaka, she seems much more like Neutral Evil to me. "Chaotic Neutral" would be fitting for Homura. Definitely "Chaotic", since she's fighting against the order created by the magical girls. Since she didn't intervene to help neither the people in the factory nor save Madoka from the witch, the can only be "Neutral" or "Evil" as second part - if she starts fighting Sayaka (and Madoka as well, should she decide to become one to help Sayaka), I'd rather put her as "Evil".
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2011-01-29, 13:20 | Link #214 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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I see no plot hole you speak of. I am more of the approach advocating to wait to see the show as a whole before throwing plot hole, asspull and red herrings accusations; so, while those accusations were thrown a lot during the Geass R2 airing, the naysayers finally had their reasons and material to throw them again when the show was over, and fans got the same to refute it.
Mentar also have a valid point about the wish system. It should not be judged with Dragon Ball or the Monkey's Paw as a measuring stick because it is its own universe that is, at the moment, unveiling its rules little bit by little bit. We have no way to judge the system's workings until we see the whole picture. However, evidences in episodes are pushing the system toward the Monkey's Paw end of the scale which is "I could wish Mami back but would not my motive to do so corrupt the wish? Am I guaranted to have 100% Vanilla Mami brought back? I should hold back until I know more." |
2011-01-29, 13:28 | Link #215 | ||
Banned
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However, to a degree, I do agree about waiting and seeing. All I can say now is that I see an issue. I hope the show does address and resolve the issue, because the show WILL have a plot hole if it's not addressed. And I've seen nothing that indicates this wish system is like a Monkey's paw. Mami got exactly what she wished for. Sayaka got exactly what she wished for (presumably; we never see her state it directly). Mami healed, and Kamijou's hand was healed. We'll have to see on the latter, but there were no downsides or "not granted quite the way you wanted" issues with Mami's wish. We can presume Kyube told her she'd be an MG so she would know some of what she was getting into, but obviously she didn't have a lot of time to fully consider. In short, not enough evidence to determine what kind of wish system, one way or the other. All we know is that the sky is the limit, according to Kyube. If you can solve all problems with a wish, and no one in the show even thinks about or considers it when plenty of people in the audience can see it... what does that say about the cast? [removed] Edit: Quote:
We can't say one way or the other. If you want to ignore everything else I've said, and remember one point, this is it. Last edited by Kaijo; 2011-01-29 at 13:49. |
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2011-01-29, 13:36 | Link #217 | ||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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As soon as it was "evident" that Madoka and Sayaka wouldn't take the job, he just left despite it was very likely Madoka would be involved with more troubles considering her potential. And "conveniently", kyuubey was present when Kamijo was having a fit. If it isn't a presence that spells an outright "hey girl, -I- have the solution, come grab it", then I have no idea what it is. As much as Kyuubey wasn't openly pushy, he is definitely being extremely persistent in turning Madoka and Sayaka into MG, be it subtly or not. Quote:
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You would rather have a direct obliteration of the competition (aka killing the girls for real before any contract). Quote:
Why would she say "impossible" when Mami's death was quite obvious when her chain got dissolved? Your assumptions really come from nowhere. Quote:
Honestly, the way how Homura is characterized in the series so far is pretty obvious for many: that she has repressed her personal feelings in order to carry out her duty without involving anyone. And she has a very obvious priority on Madoka's safety. All the assumptions you make do not prove that Homura is evil one bit. In fact, you are starting from this basis leading to these assumptions. From a neutral perspective, I see no hard evidence of any circumstancial / schemed plot present at all.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-01-29 at 13:49. |
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2011-01-29, 14:58 | Link #218 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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ok, just watched it...wow Madoka and her friend are basically in a lose-lose situation...if they don't have the power then they will be constantly in great danger because for some reasons they always find ways to get involved...and when they get the power, the tragic fate is unavoidable...this is so sad
and...don't know if this is the sub issue, but do others still have the memory of Mami anymore?? in the early part of the show, madoka suggests that no one has the memory of Mami anymore, then Homura just says Mami will be treated as the missing girl...which one is correct?? or the sub I watch is wrong?? Thanks in advance
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2011-01-29, 15:00 | Link #219 | |
Banned
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Madoka is mainly stressing that she'll never forget Mami. At least, that's my take on all of it. |
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2011-01-29, 15:06 | Link #220 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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