(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[serenade_beta]

Spoiler for ep 8 thoughts:

...... Good episode. No complaints.

Kei - She drives Miyako away, gaining some "time" with Hiro. She's also starting to notice Kyousuke, watching that video of his again and riding on the bicycle with him. Personally, I don't hate Kei, so I'd rather not have her receive divine punishment for her actions, but, mah, it's only a matter of time, regardless of how I feel.

Kyousuke - As matter-of-fact as usual, being obsessed in his work and ignoring a lot of things around him, treating them like objects for his film.

Hiro - Spends quite some time worried about Miyako, finally being able to talk to her at the end. He also shouted with Kei, due to each of them doing something the other does not want; still pushing himself...

Miyako - Sulks most of the episode, finally calling Hiro and regaining some of her confidence because she hasn't "disappeared" yet.

Yu - Has a surprisingly realistic look on life, defeating the prospect of miracles and exclaiming that there is only coincidence and the inevitable. Another example was when he took action to prevent Chihiro from over-working, saying it was impossible. While I know he's right, I just don't like how he denounces such things...

Yuko - Aah... The ever-so-meddling spectre that pops up randomly... Gives Miyako some confidence, such meddling; I finally realize what place Mizuki was at during the Game Opening with the destroyed buildings.

Renji - Goes through his "happy" moments, and ends up experiencing some "really bad" moments; good luck, you'll need it.

Chihiro - Self-destructs by trying too hard... and so, she loses most of her memories and reverts to the herself before the accident. Must have been really horrible, her "other" eye behind the eyepatch... What will happen now...

[tun]

Spoiler for episode 8:

Kei = owned

[Sol Falling]

so lonely...:P I'll be waiting for the subs, so I think I'll shut up for a couple days as I won't know what I'm talking about. I'll address the specific questions directed at me, though.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't know... I still think this is a stretch. This has been the fundamental assumption for a good while now; that the people who feel sorry for Miyako want her to end up with Hiro in order to address that suffering, and that desire is neglecting what should be the objective consequences of her behaviour. I think that you (and you all) assume too much, or rather, too little of the viewers, and this leads to comments like "they aren't feeling good about the show" (I think everyone's feeling great!), and "you are actually forcing yourself to feel bad" (what?). This is an overly harsh statement (so forgive me in advance), but do you understand what it is to feel sympathy? Do you only feel sympathy when it's deserved? Feeling sympathy for one's situation and recognizing the consequences of their actions are not two mutually exclusive points of view.

Yeah, pretty much I only feel sympathy (pity) when it's deserved. I reserve empathy (understanding) for all other occasions. I very much empathize with Miyako. Sympathy would inspire one to help somebody, or at the least wish them the best (better than others). Empathy would inspire one to be more lenient in applying or desiring suffering when punishing or correcting a wrong. Oh, and I suppose you could say that I feel pity for Miyako if that pity would be directed at the fact that she is so misguided, as opposed to the fact that she is so sad. I've found that taking that attitude is a bit offensive in real life, though--"I feel so sorry for you that you're wrong."

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

For what reason, and to what end? Because you believe that Miyako's obsessive-compulsive behaviour demonstrated during her breakdown should trump the feeling of pity people feel for her? Your crusade, frankly, just doesn't make any sense. "You guys just want Miyako to win because the show forced you to feel sorry for her! She's an obsessive bitch, can't you guys see that?!" What's the connection? And more to the point, what are you advocating that we feel instead? Why does this bother you so much?

"You guys just want Miyako to win because the show forced you to feel sorry for her!" is correct. Rather than "she's an obsessive bitch", it's more like "every other character is just as deserving of your support." The connection is the antagonism towards Kei and the disinterest towards Renji and Chihiro. I can't think of any other widespread examples.

Of course, relentlessflame, you don't uphold either of these prejudices (I think). Which was why I qualified my "black and white" stance with the "those people" statement. I just feel much more comfortable addressing the audience I'm speaking to, since there really isn't a point in trying to convince people who more or less agree with you. The fact that you, who can see my perspective, are the one replying to me does in fact show that I'm "preaching to the choir", though.

In summary, the point I've been making with all my rants thus far was this: "You people who think that Miyako's story and happy ending are more important than Renji's, Chihiro's, Hirono's, or Kei's: I don't like you."

[AvatarST]

I don't think there's a single person, at least not in this thread (and correct me if I'm wrong) who was saying the only thing they care for is Miyako being happy in the end, or that anyone would watch the show for that sole reason. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with feeling sympathy for Miyako since that's what the show tried to lead us to, and is doing a good job with it. And I think, or hope, that if people want Miyako to "win" (as much as I dislike that term for this kind of thing), it's because it's the most natural conclusion of a story that has symbolism and a buildup pointing that way.

As for which character is more deserving of the viewers' sympathy or support, that's up to each viewer, no? It depends on how much you like the character and how closely you can relate to their story, or which you feel is the most touching, or just who appeals to you the most. I don't really see absolutely any reason to love all the characters in the show equally.

But you're probably oversimplifying what the viewers think here. Of course, it'd be made much more clear if you actually told us which comments and who you're referring to specifically...

But I guess, to each his own.

[tun]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I don't think there's a single person, at least not in this thread (and correct me if I'm wrong) who was saying the only thing they care for is Miyako being happy in the end, or that anyone would watch the show for that sole reason. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with feeling sympathy for Miyako since that's what the show tried to lead us to, and is doing a good job with it. And I think, or hope, that if people want Miyako to "win" (as much as I dislike that term for this kind of thing), it's because it's the most natural conclusion of a story that has symbolism and a buildup pointing that way.

But you're probably oversimplifying what the viewers think here. Of course, it'd be made much more clear if you actually told us which comments and who you're referring to specifically...

But I guess, to each his own.

Actually, I think I did say that Miyako was the only reason why I'm still watching this show. Lemme see if I can find it.

yep found it on page 28

Originally Posted by tun

Spoiler:

omg why can't Kei just get hit by a train or something. so damn annoying. I've been finding myself skipping the Chihiro/Renji scenes since they're pretty boring as well. Miyamura is the only reason this show is worth watching.

And this is just the train otaku in me, but electricity does not run through the rails. Hell, I don't even know how that train was supposed to be running. There's no third rail, and there's no overhead wire. And it didn't sound like a diesel locomotive or a set of DMU's.

[AvatarST]

Fair enough if Miyako's the one you love the most, but the rest of my point still stands.

There's no guideline saying that you have to find every story just as interesting or every character worthy of your sympathy. There just isn't.

[tun]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Fair enough if Miyako's the one you love the most, but the rest of my point still stands.

There's no guideline saying that you have to find every story just as interesting or every character worthy of your sympathy. There just isn't.

Oh of course not. Who's arguing otherwise?

[Shana]

Originally Posted by tun

Actually, I think I did say that Miyako was the only reason why I'm still watching this show. Lemme see if I can find it.

yep found it on page 28

Then let me modify it to what I think it might be:

Originally Posted by tun

Spoiler:

omg why can't Miyako just get hit by a train or something. so damn annoying. I've been finding myself skipping the Chihiro/Renji scenes since they're pretty boring as well. Chihiro is the only reason this show is worth watching.

And this is just the train otaku in me, but electricity does not run through the rails. Hell, I don't even know how that train was supposed to be running. There's no third rail, and there's no overhead wire. And it didn't sound like a diesel locomotive or a set of DMU's.

I myself am not a Kei-lover or something, but I think Miyako is just SO annonying. But meh, as I said to Klash in CLANNAD ep8's pool "It seems like if we can think the same."

[tun]

Originally Posted by Shana

Then let me modify it to what I think it might be:



I myself am not a Kei-lover or something, but I think Miyako is just SO annonying. But meh, as I said to Klash in CLANNAD ep8's pool "It seems like if we can think the same."

The heck? I'm not sure what you're doing there. That's fine if you like Chihiro and don't like Miyako. I don't see why you need to change my post though.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

(...)it's more like "every other character is just as deserving of your support." The connection is the antagonism towards Kei and the disinterest towards Renji and Chihiro. I can't think of any other widespread examples.

(...)"You people who think that Miyako's story and happy ending are more important than Renji's, Chihiro's, Hirono's, or Kei's: I don't like you."

I'm talking about those comments. I don't really agree with them, even if I don't feel the way you do, tun.

[Shana]

Originally Posted by tun

The heck? I'm not sure what you're doing there. That's fine if you like Chihiro and don't like Miyako. I don't see why you need to change my post though.

I can quit it, though.

[tun]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I'm talking about those comments. I don't really agree with them, even if I don't feel the way you do, tun.

I don't agree with those comments either. People can like whatever the hell they want. None of these characters "deserve" any kind of sympathy or attention from us.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yeah, pretty much I only feel sympathy (pity) when it's deserved. I reserve empathy (understanding) for all other occasions. I very much empathize with Miyako. Sympathy would inspire one to help somebody, or at the least wish them the best (better than others). Empathy would inspire one to be more lenient in applying or desiring suffering when punishing or correcting a wrong.

Well, in truth, perhaps it's me who's been using the "sympathy" word inappropriately. Empathy is arguably the better word. I've never been abandoned by my parents, at least to the extent that she was, so I can't say that I can "feel Miyako's pain" (sympathy). That being said, I don't necessarily look down on her as a "poor thing" and just want things to go well for her in order to make up for her fate (pity). But I can understand where she was coming from in light of her past experiences and present circumstances (empathy).

I think what you may actually be getting at here is that you feel that some people are hoping for a Miyako happy ending simply out of pity or blind favourtism, as opposed to either warranted sympathy or empathy. As you go on to explain...

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

"You guys just want Miyako to win because the show forced you to feel sorry for her!" is correct. Rather than "she's an obsessive bitch", it's more like "every other character is just as deserving of your support." The connection is the antagonism towards Kei and the disinterest towards Renji and Chihiro. I can't think of any other widespread examples.

In other words, what you find objectionable is when people latch on to one character and favour a particular outcome over otherwise reasonable and logical plot and character development. Sounds like a not-too-distant cousin to my own personal pet peeve, obsessive character fanboyism. That being said, who am I to deny someone their preferences, anyway. For some people, anime is all about hoping for and watching their favourite characters "win", and everyone else "lose". I don't think I'll ever understand that point of view, but it does seem to be prevelant. I don't necessarily agree that it's just because the show's making them feel sorry for her, though; they probably liked Miyako more than Kei to begin with anyway.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In summary, the point I've been making with all my rants thus far was this: "You people who think that Miyako's story and happy ending are more important than Renji's, Chihiro's, Hirono's, or Kei's: I don't like you."

Well, in that case, I can sort of agree with you, except for the "don't like you" bit. Here's to hoping for a happy ending to all the characters in the show.

And anyway, it seems we're getting side-tracked here, so better more-or-less leave it at that -- for now.

[AvatarST]

Feeling more sympathy for or liking one character more than other doesn't have anything to do with blind fanboyism.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Feeling more sympathy for or liking one character more than other doesn't have anything to do with blind fanboyism.

No, of course not. I never said that. But, in extreme cases, they can be symptoms of the same root cause; when you want your chosen character to win at the expense of all reasonable plot development, for example. That's not an accusation that I'm levying against any poster in this thread, myself. But that seems to be the one Sol Falling is lamenting, and if that were a problem, I would find it annoying too. I'm sure you can remember, without much difficulty, other shows in the genre where this has been an issue.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with feeling sympathy for any character or liking or disliking one more than an other. I don't think I've hidden my own preferences in this matter either thus far. But taken to an extreme, it could be a problem and interfere with normal discussion. That being said, I don't see that problem here, which is why I raised my objection to Sol Falling's original posts in the first place.

Hope that makes more sense...?

[AvatarST]

Yeah, if that's how it is, then we agree entirely.

I just wanted to make it clear that to me, and to you, there's a pretty damn big distance between preferences and fanboyism. Preferences...everyone has them. Fanboyism, that's a different matter.

I won't hide the fact that I think Miyako's a better person than Kei so I care more for her wellbeing than the latter's, though. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna flood the board with Miyako banzai or anything like that.

But I don't really see anything wrong with fanboyism either unless people are trolling. You're free to be all banzai you want if you don't annoy other posters in general.

In any case the bottom line is that I do want a happy (or at least consistent) ending and character growth for everyone, but of course I'm always gonna like one character more than the other. And if someone really likes one character, or/and finds another completely uninteresting or unlikable (I've found lots of character I thought were just plain boring in this genre), then that's perfectly fine with me.

[Kaoru Chujo]

As relentlessflame wrote, this show provides an "ample feast." If it goes on like this, it will be a classic for me.

Spoiler for ep8:

Kei driving Miyako away at the door was such a strong scene. The shower aspect of that sequence worked, and then Chihiro's bath worked so well, too, making her seem even more vulnerable. Of course, the eventual forgetting scene was just heartbreaking, but my heart was imploding long before that, not just from the events and personalities, but somehow from the visuals and the atmosphere of the whole show. I think Oonuma Shin must simply have great talent.

The visuals are becoming even more complex, if anything. I know the people who were put off by them in episode one aren't still around, but boy are they missing something. I liked the visuals then, but I love them now. The look of this show is a big part of the feast.

Spoiler for ep8 animation:

However, some of the mouth-synchronization in the middle part of this episode was indeed just awful. I'm guessing that one of the three companies to which the credits say animation was farmed out had some problems that the animation-correction team (also credited) was not able to iron out.

In general, I think this collection of (for the most part) third-tier seiyuus is doing wonderfully well. I'll give some kudos to the sound director, Tsuruoka Yota, who did SHnY, Lucky Star and Rozen Maiden, among many others. Directors must think he does something right: right now he is doing Sketchbook, Blue Drop, Dragonaut, Clannad and Ghost Hound. My understanding is that the sound director normally directs the seiyuus.

The discussions about who does or does not deserve sympathy seem so wrong to me. Of course it's useless to argue over personal reactions, but one of the great things for me about this show is that I feel both empathy and sympathy for all the main characters. I don't know yet which of their many supposed mistakes will turn out to be a correct decision, and I don't think anyone else does, either. And it doesn't matter. In this show at least, my sympathy doesn't depend on someone being deserving or "right." They all have their problems and habits and situations to deal with. I don't see any really bad people here, just fallible humans trying to get through their lives. How can I not feel sympathy for...

Spoiler for ep8:

...Kei, who sees the one whom she is realizing is the love of her life being taken away from her by someone who seems to be helping him destroy himself?

How can I not feel sympathy for Miyako, the light-hearted depressive who has finally found a love to give her a place to stand and sees him being taken away from her by this harridan, who wants to turn him back into a child?

And I even feel sympathy for the "elder brother," who has to be "realistic" to keep from breaking down. Although when he took the notebook away I was ready to leap in and stop him myself. I was so glad that they decided not to have him actually take it away. I have been worrying for episodes now about what might happen if she lost the notebook. I hope that doesn't ever happen. But what will Chihiro be like in the next episode? What will she feel/do when she sees the notebook again?

I certainly feel sympathy for Renji, who in some ways reminds me of Asaba in Iriya no Sora. He actually does love her, I think, but the whole situation is really too much for him. At least he hasn't yet abandoned her, as Asaba did Iriya in the middle of that show.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Yeah, if that's how it is, then we agree entirely.

I just wanted to make it clear that to me, and to you, there's a pretty damn big distance between preferences and fanboyism. Preferences...everyone has them. Fanboyism, that's a different matter.

I won't hide the fact that I think Miyako's a better person than Kei so I care more for her wellbeing than the latter's, though. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna flood the board with Miyako banzai or anything like that.

But I don't really see anything wrong with fanboyism either unless people are trolling. You're free to be all banzai you want if you don't annoy other posters in general.

In any case the bottom line is that I do want a happy (or at least consistent) ending and character growth for everyone, but of course I'm always gonna like one character more than the other. And if someone really likes one character, or/and finds another completely uninteresting or unlikable (I've found lots of character I thought were just plain boring in this genre), then that's perfectly fine with me.

preference leads to bias towards the character whereas fanboyism leads to the extreme (fortunatly i rarely fall into the latter catagory ).

we all have favourites...this usual then leads us to looking at points of views that goes in favor of the character (and ignoring less favorable facts XD). if someone says something bad about a character it is natural to protect her agaisnt slandering with counters, especially if she is your favourite or "liked".

its hard to remain neutral (or near impossible) but i do like to defend both parties depending on how much support each side is getting...right now kei is considered to be the "bad" one, but i can also see a bright side to her

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Spoiler for ep8:

I certainly feel sympathy for Renji, who in some ways reminds me of Asaba in Iriya no Sora. He actually does love her, I think, but the whole situation is really too much for him. At least he hasn't yet abandoned her, as Asaba did Iriya in the middle of that show.

Spoiler for Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu and Ef ep8:

He only abandoned her for a moment. He came back. After giving her a mental breakdown

While they may be similar, Iriya and Chihiro have seperate problems, thus Asaba and Renji had to deal with different problems.

Chihiro has a problem with her memories, she lost a lot of her memories this episode

Iriya was literally dying through the series, and ends up dying in the end (Not shown, but logically, it is so.)

[Sol Falling]

*sigh* 'k, last post (till I see ep 8), promise...

I never said anybody "deserved" anything. I merely said they're all equally deserving. For all that says I could've meant they all deserve nothing.

I didn't say that you shouldn't feel any sympathy at all or like one character more than another (although personally, like Kaoru Chujo, I think all the characters are just relatable, fallible humans). I guess relentlessflame would be right that I have an issue with that preference taken to an extreme. Since you asked, and since I can define it now, I'll spell that limit out.

It's to the point of disrespecting the show. It's to the extent of not trusting the authors, and thinking that the show would be better one particular way. I haven't read through the first 25 pages or so of this thread, but I know one blog where the author repeatedly mentioned that Renji x Chihiro was boring and where some commentors said that they should shorten those segments to give more time to the other trio (if you haven't noticed, each episode is half-half right now). And then there were people hoping (not just worrying) that we'd have a 'nice boat' ending and that Kei would die. It was stuff like skipping over the Renji x Chihiro segments because the Miyako parts were 'just too good' (I have this issue with people not watching all of ep 9 of Haruhi too). The judgements on Kei at the end of episode 6 and the condemnations that she had lost 'any chance she had left with Hiro' when the story is clearly still portraying her as a sympathetic character.

I suppose I was just pissed off that everybody was going "omg second half of episode 7 was totally amazing!" because of Miyako's breakdown but totally ignoring the first half which was the most (also totally amazing) development Renji x Chihiro in any episode thus far.

I am not accusing anybody of these things, but empathise with me a bit when I say that I've actually seen them.

My point isn't really that you shouldn't like some parts (or characters, they're parts too) of the show more than the others, or that you can't dislike it. My point is only that if you will say that you like the show at all, if you're going to take the time to try to enjoy it, please give the whole thing that chance. Like Miyako, but like Kei too because she is a part of this story just like Miyako is. Like the Miyako x Hiro x Kei triangle, but like Renji x Chihiro too because they are a part of this story just like the others are. This is something the creators are working hard on, and it means something as a whole, not in just the little bits and pieces that you liked. If you're watching it and you like it, then trust it and let it show you more of what it is instead of focusing on what you want it to become. It's like love (omgwtfbbq what the hell am I saying).

So once again, if you actually do do that, then trust me I like you and am not accusing you. I am ranting at someone else who probably cannot hear me.