World Of Warcraft Discussion Thread

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by -RK-

The dominant classes since TBC came out has been warrriors, locks, and druids. Some classes have less precendent due to a poor balance. Of course, certain classes arent as good say in 2v2 as they are in 5v5.

There's only one dominant class across all 3 brackets of arena, warriors. Instant MS is just hard to pass up on. I'm not saying warriors are overpowered, mind you. I'm just saying they have the best and easiest-to-mix synergy with the healing classes.

"Since TBC" is a bit misleading as druids were nowhere among the top. It was only until the introduction of arena water in Season 2 did people realise "Hey druids can run away and drink easily!" and the new latest flavour of the month teams were born. Well, druids are still rock bottom in 5v5 healing (together with good old resto shamans). Euro Comps may have given some druid love in the 5v5 area but they are still wayyyyy behind priests and paladins in representation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

I've beaten the game in PvE, and I'm currently working towards a Gladiator title in 5v5s (you may also want to take note that I'm playing one of the worst represented classes in 5s, druids). I may be considered "hardcore" by some, but really who cares.

I've been doing PvP since good old Tarren Mill / Southshore world PvP zerg days. Resilience is an overall better change to the PvP system. Before I say any more, I'll like to say that WoW's PvP system is a joke and is not balanced (in my opinion, nobody's forcing anyone to agree with me). In my opinion, WoW PvP was more of an afterthought that the developers slapped in after (initially) designing the game to be around PvE. Now having kept that in mind...

Resilience brings much needed breathing space to certain classes which were on the receiving end (and not much they can do about it) of a <insert one or two-shot ability here>. I'm not particularly sure if an AP Pyro + Fireblast or a Rogue doing the usual stunlock from 100 ---> 0 on <insert squishy class here> is a ton of skill. With Resilience, one could actually get that breathing room to slam on their "oh crap" buttons for a life-saving grace or to stall time till teammates come to their aid.

I had Naxx / AQ 40 / BWL gear on me in pre-TBC. Did you know that I could actually take frostbolts non-stop from a mage (with regrowth + rejuv + swiftmend) until the poor mage ran oom? (note : Mage was in Tier 2 / PvP gear) I could take a wailing from a hunter in PvP gear without going into bear form. I admit I had a good laugh but I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Fast forward to TBC, I'm pretty sure I'd be going down faster than Anna Nicole Smith in a room of millionaires if I tried to do such a stunt in my tier 6 (and to be fair, let the dps-er wear PvE gear just like me).

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I had Naxx / AQ 40 / BWL gear on me in pre-TBC. Did you know that I could actually take frostbolts non-stop from a mage (with regrowth + rejuv + swiftmend) until the poor mage ran oom?

That was a lot like my Priest pre-BC, T2/TAQ/Naxx. It took either focus fire or one or two DPS classes in the same level of gear to take me down. (But it took ages to get to that level of survival though, prior to that it was two-shot central, and god it pissed me off.)

They had to get past 'Team Conflag' to get to me though, which was rare, really rare. There wasn't a lot anyone could do against 4 destro locks chain assisting each other, "immo>sb>conflag and things would drop." 4 destro locks, 1 prot warrior, 1 or 2 priests, 1 or 2 paladins and a druid.

Prot warrior and I held off an entire horde team at the Farm in AB once, true they were a pug, but two complete PvE (survival) spec'd players, holding off a group (and not dieing in the process) from cap'n was pretty comical.


play an enhancement shaman now though, big time different kettle of fish, feel a lot like my priest did at the start of pvp. Its a lot like playing roulette...

[-RK-]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

First, I'm just going to say I think you have the wrong attitude about casual players.

No gear isn't a complete substitute for skill, but its one sure hell of a good buffer.

No one said resilience was a perfect solution, but it is A solution, and it has changed PvP in general for the better away from the 2 shot gib-fest that it was. But it is no perfect solution. A game like WoW has far to many variables to balance PvP around.

What attitude do you think casual gamers deserve? Do you think its fair to water down the accomplishments of others for those people who do nothing but pay blizzard $15 each month?

Gear gives a buffer. A tiny buffer. Frankly if you are bad then gear isnt going to help you much. Im not talking a jump from 69 greens and blue to full resiliency cap either.

People who arent in the +2k bracket wouldnt understand. Resiliency is a terrible stat and has ruined PvP.

I had Naxx / AQ 40 / BWL gear on me in pre-TBC. Did you know that I could actually take frostbolts non-stop from a mage (with regrowth + rejuv + swiftmend) until the poor mage ran oom? (note : Mage was in Tier 2 / PvP gear) I could take a wailing from a hunter in PvP gear without going into bear form. I admit I had a good laugh but I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Fast forward to TBC, I'm pretty sure I'd be going down faster than Anna Nicole Smith in a room of millionaires if I tried to do such a stunt in my tier 6 (and to be fair, let the dps-er wear PvE gear just like me).

PvE'ers could dominate players esp if you are comparing AQ40-Naxx gear to Rank 12, 13, and 14 gear. There are always exceptions to the rule. I was a shadow priest Pre-BC and had no problem downing people in anything. In fact, I used to strip down to my wand and pvp trinket and kill people in tier 2 and 2.5. If you are playing against bad people then you probably were able to stay alive. Dont misrepresent those of us with skill to those baddies that couldnt kill you.

Now then... Can I get a Cowl of the Illidari Highlord to drop so i can complete my PvE gear set before Sunwell comes out?

[Ending]

People who arent in the +2k bracket wouldnt understand. Resiliency is a terrible stat and has ruined PvP.

I disagree. I'm already getting very tired of rogues stunlocking me all the time and always first, so giving them back the ability to two-shot people (stealth >> stun >> backstab, backstab >> good game) would be a nightmare.

[RWBladewing]

Servers sure are acting funny after maintenance today. Managed to top the killing blow list in EotS despite spending over half the game stuck as a corpse on the ground. In fact my character had so much fun he decided to stick around 15 minutes after the battle ended.

Apparently transfers are working again but with the way things are today I'm not even gonna risk it. Having second thoughts about spending the money anyway, especially when it's so easy to level a character now.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

What attitude do you think casual gamers deserve? Do you think its fair to water down the accomplishments of others for those people who do nothing but pay blizzard $15 each month?

Certainly deserve more then the attitude that they are little more then low life scum sitting on a corner somewhere waiting for someone to hand them epics that most of the population assumes of them. They still have to *beat* the encounters to get anything. To get any decent badge gear, they'll need like 100 badges, sure they could run Mech 20 times, or KZ 5, hey it'll even be batshit boring but the fact is that they STILL have to do it, they still have to put in some effort, and thats just for 1 item (Vanir's fist MH). Generally they are in blues or maybe crafted gear, which is certainly a lot less then what you or I would be running around in. They still can't get complete sets from badges either, they have to supplement from somewhere. So what if they removed attunements, good, I didn't want to do them on alts anyway. Even if they remove them, what can they do, they're not going to go from KZ and T4 stuff to Black Temple, they'll get reamed, they still have to get the gear. Except maybe Rage Winterchill, he is stupidly easy.

Whats it matter anyway, we've had our months of 'lording' it over them. So what if they can access it now, good on em if they can survive it. Hell if your server is like mine you'll have a progression thread anyway, and it'll be pretty obvious at a glance who 'earned' their epics and who didn't. Been playing since release, can even tell who sucks in the guilds that 'earned' the epics even casuals are better.

Not like it matters anyway, because once again we'll all be on the same playing field running on that same treadmill again getting to lvl 80.

And that cowl cracks me up every time I see it, so spiky. WTB; enhancement gear, any please. stupid plate shit.


Heh RWB, transfering would be fine no matter how the servers are working. Maintenance, gotta love it.

[nines]

i think orc shamans are best classes around ench ftw lol heal brake spells can immune fear and stuns lol raise resistances even if enh one of the best support classes always wanna have one on an instance lol

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by -RK-

People who arent in the +2k bracket wouldnt understand. Resiliency is a terrible stat and has ruined PvP.

Perhaps you may think so. Perhaps you may have liked a warrior charging up into a healer's face and bringing him / her down to half health in double quick time (2-3 seconds). Perhaps you may have liked seeing how a priest got stunlocked from full to zero by a rogue in full Tier 3 and badass weapons. Perhaps...never mind you get the point. If that's what you liked, all the power to you.

I'm in the 2K+ brackets in 5v5 as a druid. Resto I may be but it doesn't change the fact that I'm playing one of the worst represented classes in the 5v5. Not saying that I'm some god of PvP but I'd like to think myself of a decent player who fits your bill of having played in the 2K+ area. Now, onto my opinion on resilience...

I think it's not a perfect solution. There, I said it. HOWEVER, it is leagues better than pre-TBC. More survivability brings so much more to the table than..."AP PYRO + FIREBLAST MACRO OF SKILL OMG YOU ARE DEAD". This removes individual heroics by slamming on some cliche macro or combo of abilites to instant-gib or near instant-gib another player. This encourages more teamwork, identifying real threats to the team, hard-switching on focus targets (when applicable), etc.

TLDR? : I believe Resilience prolongs battles which is good. I like duking it out longer, putting more strategies onto the table rather than one or two-shot gibs of doom during pre-TBC.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

Now, shockingly, I'll argue AGAINST resilience. Of course, once again, this is all my opinion...so nobody's forcing anyone to agree. =)

Resilience scales down damage. But...Healing remains as strong as ever, no...even stronger as gear improves. Simple as that. No need for a long essay, it's really simple that healing is overpowering dps rather easily as PvP / arena gear upgrades itself. =)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

Overall? Resilience is still a good change to the pvp game, in my opinion...though not without the shortcoming as said above.

Edit : Well, I guess another shortcoming is that it made certain specs lackluster (for example, AP / frost or fire mages)

[Ending]

Resilience scales down damage. But...Healing remains as strong as ever, no...even stronger as gear improves. Simple as that. No need for a long essay, it's really simple that healing is overpowering dps rather easily as PvP / arena gear upgrades itself. =)

Of course it overpowers DPS. If it didn't, it would be better to go straight out offence since the little healing would help would be only marginal. Healing needs to make a clear difference between losing and winning -and that's what it currently does.

Here's what I wrote on the official boards yesterday as a reply to the following topic:

So after neglecting my priest pretty much from TBC and only playing my rogue i have now decided to go back to playing my priest as well.

I plan to play a disc/holy build for pvp healing. Now i have started to grind honor for my S1/vindicator gear before i start on arena. Well i thought this would be fairly easy well in a way it is in others it's not. With everyone and there dog have 300+ resi and me having a shocking 57 i sit in BG trying to work out if i'd rather continue to do this or go and bang my head against something solid and possibly sharp for the next few hours.

So my question to you all is where is a good place for gear that will make this grind less frustrating and also some gem suggestions would be nice but i'm guessing resi, stam and healing gems are the best to go for?

I'm coming straight from a premade vs. premade BG, so take this with a grain of salt.

But in PvP, forget healing. The moment you enter the field you know that every possible rogue is attracted to you like bees to honey. You don't heal. In fact, you don't do anything but stand half of the time stunned and movement crippled. Hence you tank. When you go PvP, you take all stamina and resilience bonuses for maxed out survival and diss +heal.

And it's a long, hard road. I have about 350 resilience and still lack in a several departments, but to get even here you have to bear a lot of frustration against pretty much every class. Hunters will drain your mana, cripple your movement, and halve your healing. Warriors will hamstring and bash away. Warlocks fear-lock and let their DoTs do their trick. And, of course, rogues kill you anyway. Everyone knows this and this is why the sight of you makes them salivate.

However, at 300+ resilience it does become easier to survive against everything else but rogues. Just don't expect to be able to run away when it gets rough or cast any of your major heals, since spell pushback will at least double all your casting times. If they aren't outright interrupted. But you will be owning mages and paladins, if that is of any comfort, since they are one of the few classes without healing debuffs/interrupts and skills that can be countered.

So in conclusion: take every bit of stamina and resilience you can get and spec to discipline, since all those healing talents are not much good when survival is your main priority. With 57 points of resilience you're only at the beginning of the road, so you still got a lot of pain to bear if you want to get past the point where you can afford some fun without having to desperately cling to every straw of hope like a dying man.

I wouldn't go through it for the second time, so I honestly recommend that you simply leech the necessary points for a few vindicator items and at least two gladiator parts. The new badge cloak will also help and last a long while. After that you can start a new 5v5 team and aim for the 1400-1500 brackets for the points. It takes a while to gear up, but as long as you do your 10 games the points keep rolling. Only with the full season set, right spec, and right setup you can start the real PvP at equal terms.

Fortunately the shamans didn't get their -50% healing debuff after all, at least. Healing priests would had been so screwed in PvP with four anti-healing classes (rogues, warriors, hunters, and then shamans).

[Ichihara Asako]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I had great hopes for the RP-PvP concept.... but there were simply too many who either didn't grasp what RP was about or they were too juvenile, negative, or posturing to just play the part. Mostly I blame the mods for not moderating or setting the standards clearly.

I also love PvP for the excitement and danger which was nerfed out of PvE (waaaah!!! I died because I have to think to get this quest! Waah, dying "hurts"! ... sorry, I remember when it was actually *dangerous* to get from lvl 1 to lvl 10 in an MMO)

but I'd rather RP....

Big big big +1 here. My feelings exactly. I've PvP'd plenty, in EQ and WoW. UO had its share. L2, too. Though both of those communities had decent anti-PK squads.

The problem is most people are very petty and stupid about it, which tends to ruin the experience. I don't mind having a random fight with somebody, and dying to them. But when they, whatsicalled, 'teabag' you? or spew totally OOC garbage while doing so, then yeah. Not so fun.

After years of MMOs, when it came time for me to WoW (I was adverse to it for a good while, but a friend bought it for me in the end) I started on a PvP server there with said friend, only to find the community worse than any I'd encountered before. Just as I suspected. I played my free month out, and then the day I was quitting, I saw a new server launch.

Shadow Council. "RP server" I thought. Gave it a shot, and enjoyed the game a million times more. I'm not a 'heavy' RPer, but I enjoy interacting IC, so it was brilliant. Played on and off there for several years, been in top raid guilds both alliance and horde side. Done plenty of world PvP... until battlegrounds lowered the amount of permaflagged folk. Arenas post-BC increased the numbers again. People felt a bit safer with > 10k HP and 300 resilience. =p Had some fun with it, but still not much world PvP to speak of.

But I still enjoyed random IC encounters. Never got involved in 'storylines' people ran, but I'd wander around cities and towns 'IC' and outside of raids or guild instance runs, would always reply to people in an IC fashion. Made it a lot more enjoyable all-round. Though tended to confuse the kids in guilds like 'hidden sound village' with names like "saysukay". >.< Anyway, I rant.

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

Of course it overpowers DPS. If it didn't, it would be better to go straight out offence since the little healing would help would be only marginal. Healing needs to make a clear difference between losing and winning -and that's what it currently does.

Fortunately the shamans didn't get their -50% healing debuff after all, at least. Healing priests would had been so screwed in PvP with four anti-healing classes (rogues, warriors, hunters, and then shamans).

1) Healing has always made the difference. I'm not arguing against that. Healing MUST overpower DPS and I'm not arguing against that too. What I'm saying is that healing is overpowering dps > too much <. Yes, this is a healer saying this to boot. Too much, too little or just right is of course, a matter of opinion. In this case (and in my opinion), the gap is just too wide between the two and thus why you see the emergence of drain teams in top-end 5v5ing.

In season 1 where a lot of people weren't amazingly geared, you could dps through healing 50% of the time (sure, I'm pulling the 50% statistics out of thin air but point being, you can still outheal the dps or fail at doing so). Fast forward to season 3 where Flavour of the Month teams are out in full force, people are starting to realise while they still can dps through healing, it's a lot harder than in the past...and have changed this around to work on mana drain / pressuring.

When teams are changing up to do mana drain / pressuring, it tells you that DPS can't quite catch to the level of healing that is being dished out and thus, have to go about mana draining the healers to obviously score the easier chance of winning.

2) I don't know much about priests but I believe that goes for virtually every healer. A quick glance through the top teams in every BG will tell you that MS is always present in some form. If another class gets MS, it's as threatening to you as it is to me as a healer.

If you mean by those dps-ers with MS humping the healer, priests aren't the exception. Paladin's can't do anything useful if a rogue is hounding them. They may run away but...you aren't healing that teammate who's dying if you're running. If they choose to bubble to heal, they are now vulnerable after it dies down (or is removed via Mass Dispel). Shamans are virtually as bad, perhaps even worse. You stand there, take a beating, pray that your teammates come to your rescue before you drop dead. Even the "overpowered" druids are no exception, you slam melee dps into their face and they're forced to turtle up in bear form or cheetah away (sure can bet that those awesome 200 lifebloom ticks can't really save someone below 50%, even worse if there's MS up). Or, if you want to really kill a druid, stick double melee dps onto the druid full-time (preferably a Warrior / Ret Pally but Warrior / Rogue is fine too with back-up from a Holy Pally via Justice).

In any case, shamans buffing their group (or themselves with a simple flametongue weapon buff) with MS on their flametongue totem wouldn't be that much of a deal for me (I know it's been scrapped, but just throwing out my opinion). Enhancement shamans are still sadly a joke. Sure there are some highly rated ones but it's extremely difficult to play them right (and in the right team composition to boot). Elemental and Resto shamans don't melee and they usually throw down Windfury for the warrior.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Fortunately the shamans didn't get their -50% healing debuff after all, at least. Healing priests would had been so screwed in PvP with four anti-healing classes (rogues, warriors, hunters, and then shamans

What was idiotic about the MStongue was that it was on the totem as well as the self buff, seriously, wth no that wasn't over-powered at all!

That was in massive sarcasm quotes btw...

Pitty it never even worked on test to see how it played out.

Either way MS shits me off (playing as Priest for 3 years made me hate the.. ability, almost said skill, with such unholy fervor that I cannot wait to make a Death Knight and drop Unholy Embrace on a warrior and laugh myself to death), I wish they had put some more visible effort in finding some way to buff Enh shaman for PvP, Instant Ghost Wolf does rock, Toughness is OK but kinda heavy for 5 points still. But we still have talents like Shield Specialization. MS totem might not have been the right thing but it was going somewhere. SR flat out nerf, that really ticks me off.

[Rembr]

Despite what Resilience is doing to everything, I sure enjoy the BGs these days as opposed to preBC days. Good thing that's the pvp format I like most.

[Ending]

In this case (and in my opinion), the gap is just too wide between the two and thus why you see the emergence of drain teams in top-end 5v5ing.

None at all. We have to pay a price of it: we're completely vulnerable to melee and have to rely on our team in PvP. Like you said: put a rogue on a healer and he is effectively shut down. Which is why priests are being focus-fired down first: target shut-down means that it's 5 vs. 4 instead of 5 vs. 5. It gets old very quick when facerolling your keyboard makes as much difference as really trying.

I don't know much about priests but I believe that goes for virtually every healer.

Not really. Paladin's have their bubble and druids can always shapeshift out of most situations. I'd be glad to give most of the holy -tree talents for either of these abilities, perhaps even all of them. Shamans might be screwed equally, that's true, but they have huge, melee burst-damage potential. Priests's melee attacks hit for mere 50 points and we have no counters against snares or stuns. Compare to the regular 1k-2k output of a S1 decked rogue.

Plus, like I said on the other forum; spell pushback and interrupts make our main-heals impossible to use. Even dangerous, since interrupting them also prevents the use of instants.

[Xacual]

A shaman doesn't have any melee burst damage potential if its a healer. If its enhancement its healing power is worthless. I play an Elem shaman and in pvp if anything melee gets on me I'm basically dead. There is no way for me to escape and that is the main reason I've given up on pvp with that character.

[StarTouch]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

None at all. We have to pay a price of it: we're completely vulnerable to melee and have to rely on our team in PvP. Like you said: put a rogue on a healer and he is effectively shut down. Which is why priests are being focus-fired down first: target shut-down means that it's 5 vs. 4 instead of 5 vs. 5. It gets old very quick when facerolling your keyboard makes as much difference as really trying.


Not really. Paladin's have their bubble and druids can always shapeshift out of most situations. I'd be glad to give most of the holy -tree talents for either of these abilities, perhaps even all of them. Shamans might be screwed equally, that's true, but they have huge, melee burst-damage potential. Priests's melee attacks hit for mere 50 points and we have no counters against snares or stuns. Compare to the regular 1k-2k output of a S1 decked rogue.

Paladins blowing their bubble > just to heal < has a good and bad to it. The good is pretty obvious as he/she is allowed to heal at his/her own leisure. The downside is that bubble isn't exactly safe with Mass Dispel and once the bubble is gone...that pally is no longer safe (from CC or you can just go for the outright kill on the paladin).

Druids have the best shot of escape but the moment they are judged with justice, they're just about as useless. A mace warrior and mace rogue (yes, we all hate mace stun) in my face pretty much turtles me up in bear form, I can't even cheetah right due to the random stuns (on top of the standard stuns from a rogue). A warrior or a rogue can solo a druid, if the pally slams justice onto the druid beforehand.

Enhancement shamans like I said are a huge joke in the upper brackets. They may have huge burst potential but they have one weakness which weighs them down...getting to the target itself. Warriors and rogues are so much faster in closing in before they get CC-ed. Can't say the same for an enhancement shaman and thus why they're not considered threats to most teams.

Resto shamans are pretty sad. I used to play with a Gladiator-contending resto shaman back in Season 2 and it was kinda sad how she couldn't do much when a rogue humps her. Earth shield is often purged / dispelled off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

The point is not that one class is more awesome than the other. Every healing class (and spec) brings something to the table. How I wished I had a dispel like priests to bail my Paladin out of that polymorph. But then again, I'd lose my greater mobility and escaping options. Comparing the classes across the board doesn't really go anywhere since all of them have their weaknesses (and their respective strengths).

Team composition matters a great deal too. People bring priests to 5v5 to have two defensive dispels in case one or the other get CC-ed. I get brought along to cyclone dps ---> cyclone a healer + a hard burst switch on focus target to kill someone. Shamans are brought along for purge + heroism + windfury for the warrior (well, resto shamans are still kinda bad in my opinion). Pallies are often seen as the main healers to any team and they're excellent endurance healers but they are very vulnerable to being a top CC priority target for most teams and once that bubble is gone...they are just as squishy as any other healer (yes, even with that awesome plate). Did I mention how pallies cry when they get mana burned?

Having said all of the above, once again I'd like to reinforce what I said in an earlier post...WoW PvP is definitely not balanced right and there are still problems.

[RWBladewing]

I finally got around to transferring my lv 58 rogue. Felt good to log into one of my alliance characters after a year. Until I was taking a dirt nap about a minute later. Outland is very exciting for a melee class in Azeroth greens. Wish I had some quests in Azeroth to go back to but sadly I finished nearly all of them since I originally leveled the character before the leveling buff.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Haha, yeah Outland mobs hit hard against newbie geared characters. When I took my shaman there for the first time, it was... interesting. I hit the AH up about 10 minutes later and got some cheap 'of the bandit' greens to replace the SM gear that i was currently wearing. Went a little better then.

Hit me up in game if you want a little help getting through HFP to start with, if I've got nothing on (sitting in Shattrath is pressing business u c) I'll come clear out some quests for you. char is Vexana

Did transfer to Proudmoore-US right? >.>

[Ending]

@ StarTouch

I'm glad you admitted the methods I described, since countering them is another matter because something can go wrong with the timings.

However, my point was that priests have none of these methods. No bear, frost shock, or bubble. There is no need to discuss about countering priest skills, since there are none.

[Rembr]

I enjoy my priests.

I've never encountered gross vulnerabilities being expressed here.