Tales of Graces

[Otani-kun]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I lost my patience for Turn Based RPGs a long time ago. The only TB game I'll play is a turned based strategy rpg.

Adding to the fact that FF games are turned based, I don't like the art, and the stories are mostly like a cheesy sci-fi romance novel.

Try being somewhat specific on the art, all FF's look pretty much different.
And of course, the typical FF = drama/cheesy romance statement because that's all there is to it apparently, I'd like to know which FF's you actually played.

@OceanBlue: FF12 was one of the lesser FF's since battles were too easy with the gambit system, and the story wasnt that interesting. (and it didnt involve love, go figure seeing as how people talk about how love is bad for a story)

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

Try being somewhat specific on the art, all FF's look pretty much different.
And of course, the typical FF = drama/cheesy romance statement because that's all there is to it apparently, I'd like to know which FF's you actually played.

@OceanBlue: FF12 was one of the lesser FF's since battles were too easy with the gambit system, and the story wasnt that interesting. (and it didnt involve love, go figure seeing as how people talk about how love is bad for a story)

The fact that all the characters particularly the men, look like GQ or Playgirl models.

Anyway, I've played: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Benoit

• Final Fantasy's story almost always involves protecting crystals, along with a crazy but poor story told since FFVII through tons of cut-scenes.
• The same battle system in the entire series. Sure, there were small improvements, but the base mechanic is the same old turn-based combat.
• Full of JRPG cliches.
• Big dungeons that don't make sense, all the time.

Final Fantasy is everything that's wrong with JRPGs today. Dragon Quest is original because of its stories.

• Dragon Quest IV is divided in chapters that tell each character's story, with their own motivations, battle theme, and sometimes even gameplay. At the end they join. During the game the dungeons make sense. Example: castles aren't the non-sensical mazes. There are guards on every corner, and a treasure room where the loot is.
• Dragon Quest V starts you as a kid who follows his father. The kid grows up, marries with the woman of your choice, and has children who go on an adventure with their father when they grow up.

I think it's more likely that they're stupid or forgetful, considering the fact that there are clear differences.

- Debatable but acceptable point

- I don't really know how else to say this, but FF has simply not had the same battle system throughout the entire series nor has it really been flat out turn based combat since Final Fantasy III. Unless you consider turn based combat anything that isn't pure real time like Tales of.

- The JRPG cliches thing is kind of applicable to just about any game, and DQ suffers from it plenty as well. Considering again it hasn't changed much since the 80's and basically started the JRPG genre.

- Not sure what you mean by dungeons that don't make sense. Do you have any examples?

Final Fantasy is everything that's wrong with JRPGs today. Dragon Quest is original because of its stories.

That begs the question a little there. You're skipping ahead a little there with the subjective opinion. Let's focus on proving the seperate sub-points before trying to springboard to the primary one.

I'll state that I did like the Heaven Triology of DQ for it's chapter system you mention as well as the epic feel of having a kid and watching him grow up to fight with you, but ever since then it feels like they've been sliding backward towards the more primitive original triology's level of complexity. However I hope you realize that while you say DQ is original because of it's stories, what you point to in order to support that idea has more to do with gameplay elements than the stories themselves.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

The fact that all the characters particularly the men, look like GQ or Playgirl models.

Anyway, I've played: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

I still don't understand why people seem to object to handsome male character so much. Considering people seem to love their attractive female characters just the same.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

- Debatable but acceptable point

- I don't really know how else to say this, but FF has simply not had the same battle system throughout the entire series nor has it really been flat out turn based combat since Final Fantasy III. Unless you consider turn based combat anything that isn't pure real time like Tales of.

- The JRPG cliches thing is kind of applicable to just about any game, and DQ suffers from it plenty as well. Considering again it hasn't changed much since the 80's and basically started the JRPG genre.

- Not sure what you mean by dungeons that don't make sense. Do you have any examples?



That begs the question a little there. You're skipping ahead a little there with the subjective opinion. Let's focus on proving the seperate sub-points before trying to springboard to the primary one.

I'll state that I did like the Heaven Triology of DQ for it's chapter system you mention as well as the epic feel of having a kid and watching him grow up to fight with you, but ever since then it feels like they've been sliding backward towards the more primitive original triology's level of complexity. However I hope you realize that while you say DQ is original because of it's stories, what you point to in order to support that idea has more to do with gameplay elements than the stories themselves.



I still don't understand why people seem to object to handsome male character so much. Considering people seem to love their attractive female characters just the same.

It's not that they're handsome its that they all walk around bare chested for whatever reason and looking like they greased themselves up for the audience.

[Sides]

Localisation rumours.
Some of you might have heard it already. The ToG version of "MAMORITAI-WHITE WISHES" features an english version of the Title track on it. Of course now rumours are spreading that ToG will be making its way outside japan. Nevertheless, i would wait for an official word from namco-bandai before throwing a party...

[Benoit]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

This is FF vs Tales basically is: Men that look like they came from fashion Catalog magazines V.S Anime characters.

Good one.

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

Same battlesystem. Okay, and then what? Should each FF had a completely different system or something? If it works, it's fine.

It's still fairly bare-bones. Other Square-Enix titles have better battle systems with distinguishing features. Not that Dragon Quest does much better in this aspect, but at least it doesn't try to change it just for the sake of change.

Full of JRPG clichés. Sure, because all the other JRPGs DONT have that, of course.

I never said other JRPGs didn't have those. Final Fantasy overdoes it at times, though.

Originality doesnt immediately make something good.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Sure, FF might have mostly been mostly about taking over the world and light/darkness but they made it enjoyable.

I don't equate tons of cut-scenes where I can't play the game as enjoyable.

Also, if FF is everything that's wrong with JRPG's, then it's a bit odd how popular it still is today and made it up to part 14. Surely they must be doing SOMETHING right. (:

That "SOMETHING" is mostly marketing and eye candy these days. People love their eye candy.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Not sure what you mean by dungeons that don't make sense. Do you have any examples?

Look at my castle example in the same post.

However I hope you realize that while you say DQ is original because of it's stories, what you point to in order to support that idea has more to do with gameplay elements than the stories themselves.

Gameplay is part of how the story is told.

I still don't understand why people seem to object to handsome male character so much.

They don't look much like men anymore. They're androgynous.

[Otani-kun]

Originally Posted by Benoit

I don't equate tons of cut-scenes where I can't play the game as enjoyable.

So deal with it, most JRPG's tell a lot of the story throughout cutscenes and not through the game itself. It's not that bad that half the game exists out of long tiresome pointless cutscenes like MGS4 for example.

Originally Posted by Benoit

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

No problem, seeing as you were hellbent on making Dragon Quest look like the better game just because it has a more original story, I felt the need to state the obvious.

Originally Posted by Benoit

That "SOMETHING" is mostly marketing and eye candy these days. People love their eye candy.

Heh, I'm sorry but I doubt all the FF-fans in the world play FF because it's eye candy or that they were won over by marketing and hype. They play it because they're good and fun games. (with exception of X-2, that was just mostly fanservice)

Originally Posted by Benoit

They don't look much like men anymore. They're androgynous.

Plenty of JRPG's have male characters that look a bit female'ish/too pretty, so why complain about it all the time? Better then playing some buffed guy with exaggerately huge muscles that came straight out of Gears of War. >.>

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

So deal with it, most JRPG's tell a lot of the story throughout cutscenes and not through the game itself. It's not that bad that half the game exists out of long tiresome pointless cutscenes like MGS4 for example.



No problem, seeing as you were hellbent on making Dragon Quest look like the better game just because it has a more original story, I felt the need to state the obvious.



Heh, I'm sorry but I doubt all the FF-fans in the world play FF because it's eye candy or that they were won over by marketing and hype. They play it because they're good and fun games. (with exception of X-2, that was just mostly fanservice)



Plenty of JRPG's have male characters that look a bit female'ish/too pretty, so why complain about it all the time? Better then playing some buffed guy with exaggerately huge muscles that came straight out of Gears of War. >.>

Hard to say, I'm slightly sexist in that I believe a man should be, I was kinda raised that way.

Anyway, Final Fantasy is an eye candy game, its why they can get away with doing everything else half assed.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

It's not that they're handsome its that they all walk around bare chested for whatever reason and looking like they greased themselves up for the audience.

You know I'd still rather have handsome male characters that look like they are they are designed from the groundup to appeal to the Yaoi demographic than another set of Akira Toriyama designs that look like they were recycled from Dragon Ball Z.

Originally Posted by Benoit

Good one.

It's still fairly bare-bones. Other Square-Enix titles have better battle systems with distinguishing features. Not that Dragon Quest does much better in this aspect, but at least it doesn't try to change it just for the sake of change.

That's probably because they are other Square-Enix titles. FF has to uphold some traditions, but it's nowhere near to the absurdity DQ goes in having the exact same battle system in every game.

I never said other JRPGs didn't have those. Final Fantasy overdoes it at times, though.

Again so do others. Take Star Ocean for example.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Just making sure.

I don't equate tons of cut-scenes where I can't play the game as enjoyable.

And I don't equate cycling through the same sequence of character turns over and over again with almost nothing to mix up the flow of battle to be exciting either. Thank god FF got rid of that around the time of FFIV.

That "SOMETHING" is mostly marketing and eye candy these days. People love their eye candy.

Well there's nothing stopping Dragon Quest from following suit other than it's stubborn adherance to tradition and the fact that they could go back to 8-bit graphics and sell it for a modern console at full price and still have the best selling R2 game of the year.

Look at my castle example in the same post.

Doesn't FF kind of have the same thing even when there are no castles?

Gameplay is part of how the story is told.

And DQ has some of the blandest gameplay I have ever partaken of. Playing DQ:VIII until I gave up on it. Let's just compare a standard battle from each series and see how they compare to one another using the art of video linking

Spoiler for Video gameplay comparison (nerdy):

Dragon Quest VIII battle against Dhoulmagus

Final Fantasy XII battle against Fafnir

Tales of The Abyss battle against Van

They don't look much like men anymore. They're androgynous.

Scared?

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

That's probably because they are other Square-Enix titles. FF has to uphold some traditions, but it's nowhere near to the absurdity DQ goes in having the exact same battle system in every game.

Its not about "traditions". Platformers have had the same gameplay since Mario Bros. First Person Shooters have had basically the same gameplay since Wolfenstein 3D. And stuff like sports games, racing games, etc. None of them constantly reinvent the wheel in terms of gameplay, because they work.

Simply put: Dragon Quest has the same system (which is a stretch, since its been improved over the years) throughout the years because it also works. Believe it or not, people love its turn-based system, and the most popular gaming franchise in world from the last ten years (Pokemon) utilizes it extensively. DQ still outsells FF consistently in Japan because they love it there.

So no, its definitely not a phenomenon from the 80's and just because DQ doesn't constantly discard its gameplay systems for (sometimes) half-baked solutions like FF does, doesn't mean it is doing it to adhere to "traditions". DQ has made quite a few advances throughout the years, and that's why people still buy them.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by brightman

DQ has made quite a few advances throughout the years, and that's why people still buy them.

I think a lot has to do with the Art. I find DQ and Tales series less offensive. Since FF jumped from toon art, or anime style, to photo-realsim i find them repulsive, and have actually stop playing the series because of it, with exception of FFIII DS, FFIV DS and FFIX.
Anyway if you compare both ToH versions, anime version and CG version, the anime version outsold the CG version. I reckon anime styled games will always edge out games that renders the models realistically in japan. So i'm happy that both DQ and Tales stay with their anime style, and hopefully never experiment with realistic renderings again.

[Benoit]

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

So deal with it, most JRPG's tell a lot of the story throughout cutscenes and not through the game itself. It's not that bad that half the game exists out of long tiresome pointless cutscenes like MGS4 for example.

I shouldn't have to deal with it. I'm playing a game, not watching a movie.

Heh, I'm sorry but I doubt all the FF-fans in the world play FF because it's eye candy or that they were won over by marketing and hype.

You have too much faith in the human race.

Plenty of JRPG's have male characters that look a bit female'ish/too pretty

Um, no...

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Just making sure.

I was not quoting you and calling you Captain Obvious.

Doesn't FF kind of have the same thing even when there are no castles?

No. Every dungeon is a maze. Or a dungeon that tries to look like one.

Let's just compare a standard battle from each series and see how they compare to one another using the art of video linking

I don't watch video on this computer's web browser.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Benoit

Um, no...

Just wonder, how many JRPG have you played up until now?

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And DQ has some of the blandest gameplay I have ever partaken of. Playing DQ:VIII until I gave up on it. Let's just compare a standard battle from each series and see how they compare to one another using the art of video linking

To be fair, FF12 is the only game in the series where that type of battle occurs, so it can hardly be called standard.

It seems to me that turn-based games are being bashed in this thread. What's wrong with turn-based games? I enjoyed Persona 3's and 4's turn-based battle systems more than I did FF12's and Ar Tonelico's not-turn based systems. It depends on how the battles are paced, in my opinion. FF12's battles were too slow and Ar Tonelico's were too simplistic.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

It seems to me that turn-based games are being bashed in this thread. What's wrong with turn-based games? I enjoyed Persona 3's and 4's turn-based battle systems more than I did FF12's and Ar Tonelico's not-turn based systems. It depends on how the battles are paced, in my opinion. FF12's battles were too slow and Ar Tonelico's were too simplistic.

Tales titles are normally not turn-based, and this thread is for the 10th title, so turn-based games bashing is going to happen sooner or later, if people starting to go off topic. That doesn't mean that tales followers don't like turn based games.

Some small news over on abyssalchronicles.com. It is nothing we don't already know. But finally it seems confimed that the game will have chat system like all Team Destiny titles have.

[Benoit]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Just wonder, how many JRPG have you played up until now?

Let me count... Umm, about 30.

[Duo Maxwell]

Unless you're selective type of players, half of them would be pretty/girly main characters.

[Benoit]

Sorry, none of them are bishounen.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

To be fair, FF12 is the only game in the series where that type of battle occurs, so it can hardly be called standard.

It seems to me that turn-based games are being bashed in this thread. What's wrong with turn-based games? I enjoyed Persona 3's and 4's turn-based battle systems more than I did FF12's and Ar Tonelico's not-turn based systems. It depends on how the battles are paced, in my opinion. FF12's battles were too slow and Ar Tonelico's were too simplistic.

Not saying Turn Based can't be done well. FFX had a turn based system that I thought was great where certain attacks would bump you down the turn chain or bring you up it, thus making it a gameplay element to try and find ways to crank more turns out over the boss. Usually this meant casting hastega and slow, but other methods could be found.

It's just that Dragon Quest's TB system remains unchanged since the 80's. For a progressive guy like me that's a pretty big turn off. As for Ar Tonelico, I didn't even bother with it beyond the first few hours after realizing that there is almost no resistance going on as far as the enemies were concerned. The game clearly banked on it's VN elements and cutscenes (see Xenosaga), but those were nothing to write home about either. When I heard the 2nd game has a game breaking glitch that basically forces you to grind in order to do a certain amount of damage to a boss or face a game freeze (because somehow someway the game manages to overload the PS2's memory buffer with an attack) it pretty much sealed the deal for me that I never want to touch an Ar Tonelico game again.

As for Persona, I think it's the fact that it's customizable in a good way (as in with some limits to keep every character from being exactly the same in the end) that makes the games battle system enjoyable. That and the awesome atmosphere that sets it apart from other RPG's. I mean that battle music in Persona 3 is something else.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Unless you're selective type of players, half of them would be pretty/girly main characters.

That's not really true... FF really does stand above the pack when it comes to effeminate main characters, with a history of it dating back to FF1 (Amano's male leads all look extremely feminine). Tales for example doesn't consistently have bishounens as male leads, and DQ has never had a single bishounen as a male lead. What other RPG feature them extensively?