Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[HayashiTakara]

Great episode, further insight on Yuji's plan just goes to show how stubborn and unreasonable the supposed "good guys" are.

We all knew that Yuji wasn't going to leave the denizens unchecked in the new world, and its apparently based on the Denizens greater desire to live with humans. I don't think it's unreasonable, abit Idealistic? maybe, but history isn't made without risks.

[tsunade666]

well some of the denizens look human too and they have emotion and can think or rational beings. The thing that made the denizen dangerous are they can't exist if they don't feed on human. The power of existence diminish and they to replace it by feeding on human. It's just like human need nutrition by eating food like animals and plants. It just happens to be that denizens food are human being. They are like vampire that drink blood to live.

[alvinkhorfire]

Originally Posted by elleinad00

The other Gods..... Love it!! especially Westshore she is so~ cute!!!

Westshore just reminds me of Brigid. Both of them are just too soft-spoken. Anyway, since she is one of the 4 "Gods", she should be just as strong as other "Gods".

It is great to finally hear Hildegard talking. Now, we really need to hear Dan Rogers' voice too.

Originally Posted by elleinad00

Yuji waved at Ogata and Ike and they waved back!? what's the meaning of that??

Both Ogata and Ike probably perceive Yuji as a friend of Eita and Kazumi, but they themselves do not know who Yuji is. So, it is a courtesy for Ogata and Ike to wave back to a friend of their friends.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Westshore just reminds me of Brigid. Both of them are just too soft-spoken. Anyway, since she is one of the 4 "Gods", she should be just as strong as other "Gods".

I wonder how many will say the same once she goes to town...

[Deathscyther]

8/10. Good episode. Sad to see Shana acting like this. It's logical though. She'll have to fight the person she loves more than anything and she doesn't even know how everything will end up. She must be scared to lose him.

Loved Yuji's point of view throughout the second half. Yuji's goal is now known. Xanadu, a world where humans and tomogara are able to coexist.

The tomogara came to this world from guze and found the humans who lived here in this world interesting. In order to survive they have to eat these humans though. So if Yuji/SnH can make a world where the tomogara don't have to eat humans in order to survive, the tomogara might even be able to live together with the humans. If there are still tomogara who'll eat humans for other reasons in Xanadu, Yuji/SnH will strike them down without mercy.

So it's not SnH who's running the show. SnH might be using Yuji as a tool, but at the same time Yuji is using SnH as a tool as well. They're both working towards the same goal. Although their reasons to reach that goal may differ (Yuji is doing it to protect Shana and his family/friends and SnH in order to grant the wishes of the tomogara) they've decided to merge because that's the only way they can make it happen.

Originally Posted by ReverseReasoning

Yoshida Kazumi still seems to have something for Yuji despite being rejected in one of the worst ways possible. She will help him do what? Sacrifice herself with the treasure tool? I don't think she's brave enough to do it though, considering that she has always been one of the weakest characters around.

Kazumi is weak? Kazumi might be weak physically, but she's very strong mentally imo. She started out as a very shy girl, but soon opended up after meeting Shana. She then accepted Yuji for who he is. Even though she knows he's already 'dead', she continues loving him. Even though she knows that he loves Shana, she still wants to help him reach his goal. I think she's brave enough to use the hougu as well. She just needs a good enough reason for it. I don't think she'll hesitate to sacrifice her existence if it can save Yuji, Shana or her family/friends.

Originally Posted by ReverseReasoning

I don't get Eita at all. It seems that he doesn't realize how grave the situation is. Stupid human.

Have you and I been watching the same episode?

Both Kazumi and Eita listened to Yuji's reasoning for doing all of this and have accepted this reasoning. In the end they realized that he's still the same Yuji they knew. The Yuji that wants to help everyone.

They realise that it must really difficult for Yuji himself to do this as well. He lost his existence, his place to live, his family, his friends and he even has to fight his love. But he still continues. This makes them respect him. And this is why Eita wishes him the best of luck and shakes his hand, because he knows this will be the last time seeing Yuji. And this is why Kazumi will help him. Even if it means that their city will be a warzone, because Yuji promised them that he'll protect the town and everyone in it. Because it's still the Yuji they knew.

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Both Ogata and Ike probably perceive Yuji as a friend of Eita and Kazumi, but they themselves do not know who Yuji is. So, it is a courtesy for Ogata and Ike to wave back to a friend of their friend.

Either this or they didn't see Yuji at all.

[elleinad00]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Both Ogata and Ike probably perceive Yuji as a friend of Eita and Kazumi, but they themselves do not know who Yuji is. So, it is a courtesy for Ogata and Ike to wave back to a friend of their friends.

Oh well that's kinda funny waving someone you really"don't know". Thanks for the answer.

[taichi-kun]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Westshore just reminds me of Brigid. Both of them are just too soft-spoken. Anyway, since she is one of the 4 "Gods", she should be just as strong as other "Gods".

It is great to finally hear Hildegard talking. Now, we really need to hear Dan Rogers' voice too.

I wonder Where are brigid and Flieder,last time we saw them.. they were fighting against Ribesal

And yes Hildegard talked.. she is an old friend of carmel.. I want to see her power

Shana really is very cute but at the same time very cold... maybe in the novels her behavior is better developed and explained

[Elf song]

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

I wonder Where are brigid and Flieder,last time we saw them.. they were fighting against Ribesal

And yes Hildegard talked.. she is an old friend of carmel.. I want to see her power

Shana really is very cute but at the same time very cold... maybe in the novels her behavior is better developed and explained

Yeah, next time we know, Ribesal is in the snow mountain and then in Misaki city this episode.
Hildegard's battle scene is already omitted by animators so we won't have a chance to see her power anymore (and so did Dan Rogers').

[Ec1ge]

A decent 9/10

Despite a "review" of Shana's resolve of why she's fighting and every other Flame Haze's, it was more interesting to hear why Yuji was fighting.

Like others on this thread have mentioned, Yuji's POV on what was happening and why was much better.

EDIT: It still bothers me how simply the [now] 3 Gods of Earth simply agreed to help Shana and comp. Like alvinkhorfire said, I was expecting some resistance from them, too.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

EDIT: It still bothers me how simply the [now] 3 Gods of Earth simply agreed to help Shana and comp. Like alvinkhorfire said, I was expecting some resistance from them, too.

Probably because of Centerhill.

Centerhill's purpose was to assess what the Snake was up to and came to the conclusion that it doesn't exactly solve the problem that's plaguing Earth. He represented them and told Shana and Co. they'd assist them so there shouldn't be any reason why there would be resistance.

Great episode, further insight on Yuji's plan just goes to show how stubborn and unreasonable the supposed "good guys" are.

We all knew that Yuji wasn't going to leave the denizens unchecked in the new world, and its apparently based on the Denizens greater desire to live with humans. I don't think it's unreasonable, abit Idealistic? maybe, but history isn't made without risks.

Well those Flame Hazes existed because the majority of them had their lives ruined by Denizens to begin with.

And the reason why the Flame Hazes stopped Snake the first time was because of the amount of PoE required and the risks associated with it.

However because they sealed him the first time he had time to figure out a better way for this plan to work and to minimize the risks.

Besides, the Denizens are still attacking the Flame Hazes so you can't blame them for not defending themselves.

[Ec1ge]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

So, Kazumi just agrees to follow Yuji without any ill feeling at all, even though he bluntly rejected her love in Episode 4 of Season 3. Why?

Among the 4 Gods, Centerhill is supposedly easiest to deal with, thus we viewers are expecting some resistance and arguments from other 3 Gods. As you said, our expection was proven to be wrong.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Probably because of Centerhill.

Centerhill's purpose was to assess what the Snake was up to and came to the conclusion that it doesn't exactly solve the problem that's plaguing Earth. He represented them and told Shana and Co. they'd assist them so there shouldn't be any reason why there would be resistance.

By resistance, I meant "arguments".

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Well those Flame Hazes existed because the majority of them had their lives ruined by Denizens to begin with.

And the reason why the Flame Hazes stopped Snake the first time was because of the amount of PoE required and the risks associated with it.

However because they sealed him the first time he had time to figure out a better way for this plan to work and to minimize the risks.

Besides, the Denizens are still attacking the Flame Hazes so you can't blame them for not defending themselves.

Well the past doesn't matter, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish by saying what is already known? At this point in time Yuji is working on his world with his denizens waiting in Misaki City. Shana and Co just wanna go in and stop Yuji with some weak excuse being unreasonable.

The more I think about it... the more I'm not sure how Shana plans on making everything ok... I mean really, beat up Yuji make all the Denizens scatter than just make hot dirty loli sex? I mean if that was the case, the situation with all the danger and such still exists, nothings changed for the better. At least with Yuji's plan, he saves the world and becomes the god of the next world with Shana by his side living in peace.

I really don't think Shana has thought this through...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Well the past doesn't matter, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish by saying what is already known? At this point in time Yuji is working on his world with his denizens waiting in Misaki City. Shana and Co just wanna go in and stop Yuji with some weak excuse being unreasonable.

The more I think about it... the more I'm not sure how Shana plans on making everything ok... I mean really, beat up Yuji make all the Denizens scatter than just make hot dirty loli sex? I mean if that was the case, the situation with all the danger and such still exists, nothings changed for the better. At least with Yuji's plan, he saves the world and becomes the god of the next world with Shana by his side living in peace.

I really don't think Shana has thought this through...

I'm just annoyed actually.

Even with Centerhill's argument it's still a weak one.

And the way Yuji is handling this isn't much better. It's like oh Flame Hazes you can stop fighting but he allows the Denizens to slaughter them even though they've stopped fighting and were running away. That's like a police officer chasing after you telling you you don't have to run while he's shooting at you.

Code Geass for example Lelouch had everyone fight against him because that was the plan and we all knew that.

Here Yuji joins the Denizens and try to make a utopia but I think the story kinda screws around with what do with the Flame Hazes? Every story has to has some sort of confrontation.

If it was stated that the plan involved a huge risk that could destroy the world or required tons of humans to be consumed then the Flame Hazes would have a better reason to go. I think the writers are struggling with that because even if Shana and co. wins for example what then? It's not a good ending.

In fact I'm curious as to how this world is being created and where the PoE is coming from.

[HayashiTakara]

The PoE is from Yuji obviously. He's a god pretty much, and the reiji maigo refills that that god level PoE everyday. Basically he has unlimited PoE to use.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

See that's what I'm wondering. Is the Reiji Mago the key to all this? is it the solution to the problem that plagued SoH first time?

But Bal Masque pulled a similar stunt in the first season where they literally drowned the city in PoE and Shana and co. still went out to stop it.

I think also Alastor mentioned the dangers of having so much PoE flowing (laws of conservation).

Argh it's just annoying. Even if its true the argument on the Flame Hazes side is still weak and I'm wondering if the writers are trying to come up with some proper justification for them to continue fighting for the sake of the plot.

[HayashiTakara]

Messing with the PoE in drastic measures fucks the world up. It throws the balance out of whack. This time everything is occuring in a dimensional rift. It's been reinstated many times over that what Yuji is doing will heal and stabilize our world. They're just blinded with their notion that the denizens are gonna fuck up the new world.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

But that was Centerhill's argument, he said that while it'd be nice for the Denizens to do whatever the hell they want in the new world both the Crimson World and Earth will nevertheless be affected. He stated that in the short-term everything will work out nicely. It's the long-term he's concerned with.

So rather than having just the 2 worlds being affected now it's 3 worlds linked together. There's nothing to guarantee that the Denizens in that new world won't resort to the same actions they've done on Earth and it'll still affect Earth and they'd be powerless to stop it.

As you said it's still screwing up the balance.

And again it's not that the Hazes are blinded I just think it's bad the way it's being written. Yuji has no problem sitting down and talking with his old friends but just clashes swords with them. Perhaps if he extended some olive branch to ask for the more stronger-minded flame hazes to act as enforcers in his new world to ensure all 3 worlds are protected then maybe. Of course with that then we'd wouldn't have our armageddon battle now would we?

I'm almost 99.9% sure that this will work out in the end in any case.

[HayashiTakara]

Yuji knows its going to be a long difficult road ahead, but it's not just his and the God of Creations desire to create a world with peace between the denizens and humans, it's the denizens desire to have such a world. But, like Yuji said, even if he tells them all of this, it won't change the Flame hazes resolve to prevent "paradise"

This is an unusual case where there's no clear "bad guy", Both have their arguments, but the flame haze in my opinion are painted in a horrible light, it could just be a problem with dialogue but I really don't like how Shana and the other flame haze are going about this whole thing.

[Reckoner]

Part of why I ultimately sympathize with the denizens over the flame haze is because Yuiji time and time again has proven himself to be more sensible, and smarter than most of these supposed totem poles of wisdom on the flame haze side.

Also why the Flame Haze act like their path is a certain one while Yuiji's is an uncertain one, really they don't know any better themselves. They haven't thought through the consequences of their actions. What happens if they win this battle? Back to eternal fighting and suffering?

The mere fact that Shana and the other flame haze have offered so little consideration of the other possibilities is what paints them in a bad light. They didn't even try to seriously have a dialogue about this. Most of the flame haze didn't really care about the world balance either, they just cared about their revenge, which is rendered mostly meaningless now. Yuiji has seen all sides of the story, the human side, the flame haze side, and now the tomogara side. Since he's been the most sensible character in the entire show (Minus retarded love triangles of course), I see no reason to doubt his choice as the most wholesome, reasoned, and most trustworthy of the entire cast.

[virox]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Great episode, further insight on Yuji's plan just goes to show how stubborn and unreasonable the supposed "good guys" are.

We all knew that Yuji wasn't going to leave the denizens unchecked in the new world, and its apparently based on the Denizens greater desire to live with humans. I don't think it's unreasonable, abit Idealistic? maybe, but history isn't made without risks.

Now now, at least Shana and her group aren't unreasonable, because they actually know that the creation of another world will inevitably result in the big catastrophe in the end. As for the other Flame Hazes, well, they want their revenge for which they made the contract in the first place... Not all of them, but many.
I wouldn't call them unreasonable. And I wouldn't call either group "good" anyway.

Edit: After reading the other comments I noticed that all of this has been said already. Whatever.

Originally Posted by elleinad00

Episode 18!!=going to the end of vol. 21.

Already? Are they really going to spend the last 6 episodes on the final novel, as compared to the runthrough of the previous novels?