Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Now now, at least Shana and her group aren't unreasonable, because they actually know that the creation of another world will inevitably result in the big catastrophe in the end. As for the other Flame Hazes, well, they want their revenge for which they made the contract in the first place... Not all of them, but many.
I wouldn't call them unreasonable. And I wouldn't call either group "good" anyway.

it was pretty well stated early in the series that not all Flame Hazes were good people. Heck that's why there're so many weapons created by humans designed to destroy flame hazes and last I heard the 4 gods tried to destroy humanity to begin with.

THe issue as I said before is that the argument isn't strong enough or at least the way the writers are going over it.

1) Yuji will make a brand spanking new world which is a copy of Earth where the Denizens can do whatever they want without prosecution.

2) Flame Hazes are against it because while they acknowledge it will fix things in the short-term, there's nothing to stop the Denizens from doing even crazier things since there wouldn't be anything to keep them in check. Whatever they do in the new world regardless WILL affect both worlds in the end.

As the Italian mobs would say, the one thing more important than life is control.

But as Reckoner pointed out, the Flame Hazes don't exactly have anything better to offer and I think that's what makes their side of the argument weak. If there was a string attached to Yuji's plan then maybe.

It's like those series where a person enacts paradise where everyone lives in harmony but then there's a small group opposed to it because they want freedom and status quo (and these are usually the good guys in the story). In the end they defeat that "guy" and the world returns to its crap state but they accept it because it's their choice.

[Kristen]

Spoiler for Size:

motherfucking success MISSION MOTHERFUCKING ACCOMPLISHED!!

Confession GET. Good end is in reach!

There is no doubt in my mind about this episode - 10/10!

[syke123]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

it was pretty well stated early in the series that not all Flame Hazes were good people. Heck that's why there're so many weapons created by humans designed to destroy flame hazes and last I heard the 4 gods tried to destroy humanity to begin with.

Those 4 started a war against the other flame hazes and the europeans which enslaved they're population as a means to reacquire lost territory and free the natives, not world domination.

1) Yuji will make a brand spanking new world which is a copy of Earth where the Denizens can do whatever they want without prosecution.

Snh will, Yuji merely supports the cause and is the temporary vessel. The denizens will be able to live freely but they won't be able to do whatever they want, the idea is that they can live in this new world without fear of annihilation from flame hazes.

2) Flame Hazes are against it because while they acknowledge it will fix things in the short-term, there's nothing to stop the Denizens from doing even crazier things since there wouldn't be anything to keep them in check. Whatever they do in the new world regardless WILL affect both worlds in the end.

Yeah, it's supposed to create some sort of absurd storm which will knock out guze, xanadu and earth in the distant furture. They are basing everything off speculation and I don't blame them. In context the flame hazes are right morally over snh, and the denizens. Snh is acting solely because the denizens idolize, respect and obey him, he must have a deeper meaning but it isn't revealed. The only thing pushing him is the insane amount of Power he holds and the selfish desires of the denizens.

The flame haze side is just, and doesn't necessarily require any need to reinforce. They fight to keep the denizens in line, and prevent them from doing whatever they want, plain and simple.

This whole mess could've been avoided with a tenpa Jyousai in the rift, Shana brought this on herself.

[Ec1ge]

Originally Posted by Kristen

Spoiler for Size:

motherfucking success MISSION MOTHERFUCKING ACCOMPLISHED!!

Confession GET. Good end is in reach!

There is no doubt in my mind about this episode - 10/10!

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by virox

Now now, at least Shana and her group aren't unreasonable, because they actually know that the creation of another world will inevitably result in the big catastrophe in the end. As for the other Flame Hazes, well, they want their revenge for which they made the contract in the first place... Not all of them, but many.
I wouldn't call them unreasonable. And I wouldn't call either group "good" anyway.

Edit: After reading the other comments I noticed that all of this has been said already. Whatever.



Already? Are they really going to spend the last 6 episodes on the final novel, as compared to the runthrough of the previous novels?

I'm sorry, but they know squat. They're simply assuming the Denizens are gonna go crazy on the new world and mess shit up. It's just as bad as a rich white neighborhood freaking out if a black family moves in. In other words the flame haze is basing the end result on preconceived prejudice.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I'm sorry, but they know squat. They're simply assuming the Denizens are gonna go crazy on the new world and mess shit up. It's just as bad as a rich white neighborhood freaking out if a black family moves in. In other words the flame haze is basing the end result on preconceived prejudice.

Eh I don't think that's a good analogy. Especially when it'd be a black family that would be moving out of the white neighbourhood and into their own place. And it isn't the fact that the Denizens need humans to survive but its' that they can literally perform "miracles" by consuming large amounts of PoE.

The Flame Hazes purpose is to maintain balance so they are more of a police force that keeps the Denizens who eat humans in check and perform "miracles".

They are logically concerned with the long term consequences (ever heard of power mad or power corrupts?) as they will not be there to keep them in check if any steps out of line. There is nothing to guarantee that the Denizens will not let greed take over and start using more and more PoE for more and more "miracles"

Yuji acknowledges this but he's willing to take a "leap of faith" for it. It's in the nature of the Flame Hazes to oppose him as this is causing a massive change to the balance and to be cautious as well.

[Crontica]

Oh for gods sake lets get our priorities straight, do the Denizens eat humans POE to stay alive with the bonus of magic craft or do they just eat humans POE for the magic craft?

If the Denizens don't need POE to survive then SoTF is taking advantage of a very severe loophole in the chaos and confusion or it could be that SoTF cannot manage a world where the Flame Hazes and Denizens keep clashing so he has to make a new one.

If in the new world too many rogue Denizens kill the humans or what ever human-like-replacement resides there, you can only hope for vigilantes and new flame hazes to be made to resolve that issue.

[Isekaijin]

Okay, I myself a Yuuji and Shana shipper, I know that the outcome of this relationship is what many of us are mainly interested in. But this whole war just put a whole new perspective to the series that makes me reevaluate this whole Xanadu plan, and it just pisses me off.

Spoiler for Rant. It's lenghty but please bear with me:

Perhaps people have forgotten but the tomogara are monsters. Selfish monsters who only see us as freaking food. Do they really need the PoE to exist? Don't they have their own little world to live? Is there any hint in the LN that the Crimson Realm is a crappy place to live? As far as I know, nothing happens if they don't get PoE. It's like they just came and said, "Hey we can use magic and stuff if we kill those guys and extract their juice."

Yuuji should know that better than anyone, before he fused with SotF yet he is practically allowing a whole army of monsters from another dimension to just walk out of the earth, into their own paradise like a bunch of karma houdinis, in which they may do as they please eventually leading to it's destruction, forcing them to come here again and repeat this crap. Even if that scenario doesn't happen, he is allowing his army to kill as many flame hazes and people they want just as long as they don't touch Shana (which he plans to deal with personally) and the city in which he lives. He already mind raped Margery Daw showing that his concern for his former allies is a shade of what it was. So the rest of the world can go to hell just as long as he gets to protect what he wants.

Optimism apart, I see this as just plain stupid. He has seen friends getting injured or worse, heck he himself was eaten. What he has been trough gives him enough qualifications to be the most goddamn bloodthirsty flame haze in the history and yet he is leading the ones who are responsible of all the angst he went through in the first season and the first LN, and being chummy chummy with them?

What the hell Yuuji? Am I missing something or what? Is he planning to just deny everything that the tomogara caused and just expect everything will be alright?

And for that matter, the Trinity pisses me off even more. Specially goddamn Sydonay, his kill count is the highest in the whole series. Someone finish that karma houdini off please.

To end this, were I a flame haze bent on revenge and Yuuji just told me to stop because he is going to leave with the bunch of bastards who made my life miserable, I would just punch him in the face and yell at him to give my time and life back.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Do they really need the PoE to exist? Don't they have their own little world to live? Is there any hint in the LN that the Crimson Realm is a crappy place to live?

Yes, no and yes.

so it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the Flame Hazes are just as bad if not worse.

Actually, your last line there basically sums them up pretty nicely. Most anyway

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Eh I don't think that's a good analogy. Especially when it'd be a black family that would be moving out of the white neighbourhood and into their own place. And it isn't the fact that the Denizens need humans to survive but its' that they can literally perform "miracles" by consuming large amounts of PoE.

The Flame Hazes purpose is to maintain balance so they are more of a police force that keeps the Denizens who eat humans in check and perform "miracles".

They are logically concerned with the long term consequences (ever heard of power mad or power corrupts?) as they will not be there to keep them in check if any steps out of line. There is nothing to guarantee that the Denizens will not let greed take over and start using more and more PoE for more and more "miracles"

Yuji acknowledges this but he's willing to take a "leap of faith" for it. It's in the nature of the Flame Hazes to oppose him as this is causing a massive change to the balance and to be cautious as well.

You kind of missed the analogy, the neighborhood is like Xanadu, the rich white people are the flame haze. Now the flame haze don't want them moving in to Xanadu because they're afraid, due to preconceived prejudice that the Denizens are going to ruin the place. Get it?

Anyway, if anything the corruption of power flows both ways, if anything the Flame Haze are worse, they're literally drunk on their role and power.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

Okay, I myself a Yuuji and Shana shipper, I know that the outcome of this relationship is what many of us are mainly interested in. But this whole war just put a whole new perspective to the series that makes me reevaluate this whole Xanadu plan, and it just pisses me off.

Spoiler for Rant. It's lenghty but please bear with me:

Perhaps people have forgotten but the tomogara are monsters. Selfish monsters who only see us as freaking food. Do they really need the PoE to exist? Don't they have their own little world to live? Is there any hint in the LN that the Crimson Realm is a crappy place to live? As far as I know, nothing happens if they don't get PoE. It's like they just came and said, "Hey we can use magic and stuff if we kill those guys and extract their juice."

Yuuji should know that better than anyone, before he fused with SotF yet he is practically allowing a whole army of monsters from another dimension to just walk out of the earth, into their own paradise like a bunch of karma houdinis, in which they may do as they please eventually leading to it's destruction, forcing them to come here again and repeat this crap. Even if that scenario doesn't happen, he is allowing his army to kill as many flame hazes and people they want just as long as they don't touch Shana (which he plans to deal with personally) and the city in which he lives. He already mind raped Margery Daw showing that his concern for his former allies is a shade of what it was. So the rest of the world can go to hell just as long as he gets to protect what he wants.

Optimism apart, I see this as just plain stupid. He has seen friends getting injured or worse, heck he himself was eaten. What he has been trough gives him enough qualifications to be the most goddamn bloodthirsty flame haze in the history and yet he is leading the ones who are responsible of all the angst he went through in the first season and the first LN, and being chummy chummy with them?

What the hell Yuuji? Am I missing something or what? Is he planning to just deny everything that the tomogara caused and just expect everything will be alright?

And for that matter, the Trinity pisses me off even more. Specially goddamn Sydonay, his kill count is the highest in the whole series. Someone finish that karma houdini off please.

To end this, were I a flame haze bent on revenge and Yuuji just told me to stop because he is going to leave with the bunch of bastards who made my life miserable, I would just punch him in the face and yell at him to give my time and life back.

Yes, condemn an entire race because one of them wronged you. That's how Hitler came to be.

[Crontica]

To end this, were I a flame haze bent on revenge and Yuuji just told me to stop because he is going to leave with the bunch of bastards who made my life miserable, I would just punch him in the face and yell at him to give my time and life back.

And this is exactly why Yuji won the war, to refute his argument beyond that point would simply expose you as a blind and merciless murderer.

What time and life bro? The war is finally won the vigilantes got their unbelievable wish of wiping out all of their pain and sorrow to another dimension and as a nice bonus you're damn immortal.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

8/10. Good episode. Sad to see Shana acting like this. It's logical though. She'll have to fight the person she loves more than anything and she doesn't even know how everything will end up. She must be scared to lose him.

Loved Yuji's point of view throughout the second half. Yuji's goal is now known. Xanadu, a world where humans and tomogara are able to coexist.

The tomogara came to this world from guze and found the humans who lived here in this world interesting. In order to survive they have to eat these humans though. So if Yuji/SnH can make a world where the tomogara don't have to eat humans in order to survive, the tomogara might even be able to live together with the humans. If there are still tomogara who'll eat humans for other reasons in Xanadu, Yuji/SnH will strike them down without mercy.

So it's not SnH who's running the show. SnH might be using Yuji as a tool, but at the same time Yuji is using SnH as a tool as well. They're both working towards the same goal. Although their reasons to reach that goal may differ (Yuji is doing it to protect Shana and his family/friends and SnH in order to grant the wishes of the tomogara) they've decided to merge because that's the only way they can make it happen.

after rewatching with better subs, I think both of them don't really sure what will happen at the end of war (since they love each other)
But, looks like Shana and Flame Haze will move in better reasoning because they're in "resisting change" side

from Yuji's explanation, he will create copy of humans in Xanadu. This means there is a high possibility that Tomogara will consume humans there... and this one gives Flame Haze more points to strike down Yuji's plan. I really hope Yuji know about this power of existence stability.

like everyone, I'll see this through.... prove to us who got better ending

[Cosmic Eagle]

Anyway, this ep has to be the best so far....the parting between old friends, always such an emotional thing.

[MizuMikomi]

Rather enjoyed seeing Shana make that adorable face after eating a raspberry. And it's nice to know she likes more than just melon bread. This episode was great though, seeing Yuji just be sort of himself was a nice change, even if it had to do with everything but those he was talking too. It was still a great explanation of his plans, and ambition.

It's rather unfortunate that the Flame Haze are so paranoid about Xanadu, Shana should know full well that Yuji would not put the people he loves, or the world in harm's way. This talk also seemed to explain why the Tomogara went on a mass slaughter campaign after Snake and Yuji's speech during that war. With the whole "Snake is a God who affirms desire." bit, they merely thought he would forgive them is what I came to the conclusion of.

This was a great episode, and I loved how Tanaka slowly loosened up and calmed down throughout the walk they had. By far one of my favorites thus far.

[Isekaijin]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Yes, no and yes.

so it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the Flame Hazes are just as bad if not worse.

What about the Crimsom Realm, Guze or whatever the other world from they come is called. Flame Hazes exists precisely because among the denziens, there are ones who give them their power with the explicit purpose of killing them to preserve the balance. If this was completely necesary they wouldn't do that, instead we would be seeing Alastor and co, gleefully devouring PoE. And did any of the tomogara seen until now said PoE keeps them alive? Friagne, the Aizen siblings, Lamies, Dantalion, Bal Masque. All of them had personal motives to crave for PoE.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Yes, condemn an entire race because one of them wronged you. That's how Hitler came to be.

I won't claim they are saints but the scale is completely off. Also it's not just one of them. Every single one of the tomogara sided with Bal Masque is in Earth precisely to consume PoE, and you know what it means. Using your Hitler analogy, they are basically letting the Nazis go to a nice vacation in another planet and it's ok because they won't be around anymore.


And still there are unanswered questions. Why Yuuji suddenly understands them? He was killing them in the second season, What the hell did SotF told him? They are still a threat. A threat which grew since he began to lead them. He said it himself that the order to not eat humans is just restricted to Japan. And still the massacre of a weak and morally devastated Flame Haze army strikes me as unnecesary. If he is so sure of his plan why don't just retreat? I know that in war sacrifices are made but still he is still letting way too many people die.

Originally Posted by Crontica

What time and life bro? The war is finally won the vigilantes got their unbelievable wish of wiping out all of their pain and sorrow to another dimension and as a nice bonus you're damn immortal.

Their existence as humans was deleted. When they became Flame Hazes hunting Tomogara became not only a duty, most of them are solely motivated for revenge. And would you call won a war where 80% of your allies were KIA?

And last time I checked, being inmortal condemns you to a life of solitude. Save exceptions, most Flame Hazes are supossed to be damn antisocial due to their long lifespans.


Please don't get mad, I'm not trolling or anything. I just want a satisfying explanation to all of this mess. Most tomogaras are evil, that much was hammered into my head in the first two seasons of the anime and the first 7 volumes of the LN. I can't suddenly picture them as the good guys just because Yuuji is siding with them now. And since Yuuji isn't explaining the main points of his plan it isn't a surprise Shana wants to stop him.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

What about the Crimsom Realm, Guze or whatever the other world from they come is called. Flame Hazes exists precisely because among the denziens, there are ones who give them their power with the explicit purpose of killing them to preserve the balance. If this was completely necesary they wouldn't do that, instead we would be seeing Alastor and co, gleefully devouring PoE. And did any of the tomogara seen until now said PoE keeps them alive? Friagne, the Aizen siblings, Lamies, Dantalion, Bal Masque. All of them had personal motives to crave for PoE.

I am talking about Guze.

Existence is necessary for things to well....exist.

Unlike humans, Tomogara have unreplenishiable existence and more importantly, because they are alien to this world, they must actively burn Existence to manifest (顕現する) themselves in this world.

Without it, it's really death for them. You see what happened to Merihim when he expended all his Existence fighting Orgon and Shana when Tendou Kyuu fell despite being one of the most powerful Lords around after having starved himself since Mathilde died?

Alastor and the Snake are Gods. They function on entirely different set of laws. Their so far above everyone else, it's not funny...

The Trinity are also kinda special as well.

As for the Flame Haze Lords, they are all still in Guze so that's why they need to act through Flame Hazes.

They'll still need to eat eventually if they enter this world.

If the Tomogara choose to enact spells or other effects obviously they'll need more Existence.

And anout Guze itself, physics and the things normal humans perceive with the senses don't apply there, everything there is just a chaotic mass of energy that is constantly changing.

Because of that, the Tomogara can't have any meaningful existence there to speak of since everything is so fluid.

They themselves are formless in there in fact.

[Cosmic Eagle]

And as for why I say the Flame Hazes are worse....

well once you take into account various events and the stories of the Tomogara they have slain over the years.....


but those are spoiler so I won't mention them here.

[alvinkhorfire]

Originally Posted by virox

Already? Are they really going to spend the last 6 episodes on the final novel, as compared to the runthrough of the previous novels?

Not really, we still have not reached the middle portion of Volume 21. In my opinion, the safer bet is that the end of Volume 21 would be animated in Episode 20.

Originally Posted by Elf song

Hildegard's battle scene is already omitted by animators so we won't have a chance to see her power anymore (and so did Dan Rogers').

Sigh, we do not get to see the battle between Hildegard and Dan Rogers versus Haborym and Stolas. Besides that, the confrontation between Mammon and the pair of Sale and Chiara is also omitted. Then again, at the same time, which Flame Hazes were tasked with defending the Outlaw in Greece against Orobas and Lerajie?

It would be helpful if someone could provide a short description of the aforementioned battles. The existing novel summaries in this forum do not cover that.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Not really, we still have not reached the middle portion of Volume 21. In my opinion, the safer bet is that the end of Volume 21 would be animated in Episode 20.


Sigh, we do not get to see the battle between Hildegard and Dan Rogers versus Haborym and Stolas. Besides that, the confrontation between Mammon and the pair of Sale and Chiara is also omitted. Then again, at the same time, which Flame Hazes were tasked with defending the Outlaw in Greece against Orobas and Lerajie?

It would be helpful if someone could provide a short description of the aforementioned battles. The existing novel summaries in this forum do not cover that.

You'll see Chiara and Orobas' group again don't worry...

[klare]

nicely done at the end of the walk, his generals are lining up and waiting for him

not sure why Yoshida is needed tho