Ever17 -The Out of Infinity-

[Malintex_Terek]

A tragedy, dear friends. A fellow Anonymous who was on a certain imageboard asked something and I gave him incorrect information (I believe), so you lot need to clarify.

Spoiler:

In Blick Winkel's ending, Sora makes direct references to the Pygmalion legend and "keep it simple", which occured during the dramatic scene when Takeshi burned her disk and drowned embracing her. How was this possible? We've already determined that Blick Winkel, why incapable of affecting stuff in the third dimension physically, can share memories with a host of his - but Sora was never possessed by Blick until the epilogue. So, she shouldn't "automatically" share his memories of the Sora Good End like Takeshi unless, well...I dunno, someone penny up.

/needs to play Takeshi's route leading up to Coco's Path.

[4as]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Spoiler:

In Blick Winkel's ending, Sora makes direct references to the Pygmalion legend and "keep it simple", which occured during the dramatic scene when Takeshi burned her disk and drowned embracing her. How was this possible? We've already determined that Blick Winkel, why incapable of affecting stuff in the third dimension physically, can share memories with a host of his - but Sora was never possessed by Blick until the epilogue. So, she shouldn't "automatically" share his memories of the Sora Good End like Takeshi unless, well...I dunno, someone penny up.

Spoiler:

In Coco's path there is also a scene where Takeshi burns the cd saying "keep it simple". It happens on day 6 (near end of it) when Takeshi goes back for Tsugumi. Befor thay go back to IBF, Takeshi stops at HIMMEL and burns the cd.

[Malintex_Terek]

My thanks. Another point of clarification if you would:

Spoiler:

What is the extent of Coco's power? She claims to have both ESP and minor Telekinesis, whereas Blick Winkel merely has ESP. Blick can apparently exist as Perception independent of a body or role-play as someone - he can only maintain an independent body so long as he is self aware.

But, from what Coco explained of her power, is it equivalent to Blick's? Blick can observe stuff in Ever17, jump at will to different time continuums or points in time, and vocalize his thought-speak to anyone he choses. But, Coco can only communicate with Blick, but she can do that to Blick in alternate time periods.

That's what I don't get, really. Coco shouldn't really be helpless against time. If she can talk to Blick in different time periods, she should have an awareness of what goes on in her world and the alternate time continuums.

Suffice to say, it's just assume Coco can possess Blick like Blick can possess Takeshi/Hokuto. My question is, can Coco not only see Blick's word and its alternate possibilities, but at the same time look through Blick at her own world? That's kind of cheap given Blick can't even see into his own future, but Coco can see everything - their powers aren't exactly the same.

At that, from which time period is Coco communicating to Blick? In Coco's Path, when Takeshi freezes Coco, she acts like she's seen Blick for the first time, but rather, she's been talking to him as time goes forward in Takeshi/Hokuto's perspectives through Coco's Path.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

My thanks. Another point of clarification if you would:

Spoiler:

What is the extent of Coco's power? She claims to have both ESP and minor Telekinesis, whereas Blick Winkel merely has ESP. Blick can apparently exist as Perception independent of a body or role-play as someone - he can only maintain an independent body so long as he is self aware.

But, from what Coco explained of her power, is it equivalent to Blick's? Blick can observe stuff in Ever17, jump at will to different time continuums or points in time, and vocalize his thought-speak to anyone he choses. But, Coco can only communicate with Blick, but she can do that to Blick in alternate time periods.

That's what I don't get, really. Coco shouldn't really be helpless against time. If she can talk to Blick in different time periods, she should have an awareness of what goes on in her world and the alternate time continuums.

Suffice to say, it's just assume Coco can possess Blick like Blick can possess Takeshi/Hokuto. My question is, can Coco not only see Blick's word and its alternate possibilities, but at the same time look through Blick at her own world? That's kind of cheap given Blick can't even see into his own future, but Coco can see everything - their powers aren't exactly the same.

At that, from which time period is Coco communicating to Blick? In Coco's Path, when Takeshi freezes Coco, she acts like she's seen Blick for the first time, but rather, she's been talking to him as time goes forward in Takeshi/Hokuto's perspectives through Coco's Path.

you're overthinking things...very few good stories are without holes

[4as]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Spoiler:

What is the extent of Coco's power? She claims to have both ESP and minor Telekinesis, whereas Blick Winkel merely has ESP. Blick can apparently exist as Perception independent of a body or role-play as someone - he can only maintain an independent body so long as he is self aware.

But, from what Coco explained of her power, is it equivalent to Blick's? Blick can observe stuff in Ever17, jump at will to different time continuums or points in time, and vocalize his thought-speak to anyone he choses. But, Coco can only communicate with Blick, but she can do that to Blick in alternate time periods.

That's what I don't get, really. Coco shouldn't really be helpless against time. If she can talk to Blick in different time periods, she should have an awareness of what goes on in her world and the alternate time continuums.

Suffice to say, it's just assume Coco can possess Blick like Blick can possess Takeshi/Hokuto. My question is, can Coco not only see Blick's word and its alternate possibilities, but at the same time look through Blick at her own world? That's kind of cheap given Blick can't even see into his own future, but Coco can see everything - their powers aren't exactly the same.

At that, from which time period is Coco communicating to Blick? In Coco's Path, when Takeshi freezes Coco, she acts like she's seen Blick for the first time, but rather, she's been talking to him as time goes forward in Takeshi/Hokuto's perspectives through Coco's Path.

Spoiler:

I'm not quite sure about limitations of there powers.
I like to think that, Coco, through course of time, learned that she CAN'T change time and thus her motto "It's what happens... so that's just the way it is" - she may see future or parallel universe but she is only a observer bounded to her body and time. (So, even thought she sees future, she doesnt act.)
Also, she seem to learn about future in same fashion as the player (Blick) - at the beginning she only seen the "bad end" (judgin from the scene in decompresion chamber, day 1), but from the point when she was hibernated, she come to realize that she can communicate with Hokuto. As Coco started to approach him, she also slowly began to understood about alternative future. She was the only person that could awaken Blick Winkel.
One more thing, as Coco is bounded by time, she cant "transfer" here memoris in to the past, so when Takeshis freezes her, she still doesnt know BW. Coco that appears in front of Hokuto is one from the future, hibernatied in IBF.

Hmm, I'll need rethink it some more...

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally, I came here prepared with a hypothesis, but I wanted to see some imput from other people before giving it. Enclosed (but one question remains):

Spoiler:

Remember how we were fooled in the beginning into thinking the Kid/Takeshi's switches were in the same year? I was thinking the same trickery was going on in Coco's Path, only it should have been more obvious than in the prologue since we knew the years were different. The Coco speaking to Blick in 2034 was the Coco frozen at the bottom of the sea, not the Coco from 2017. This makes sense given Coco was really depressed early on in Coco's path but warmed up to Blick.

I believe that because Blick exists in the fourth dimension, his powers of "posession" and "vocalization" are something Coco cannot emulate with normal people - she can use the same telepathy when talking with Blick only because of his status.

The only unresolved issue is how Coco is aware of Hokuto's two escapes from LeMU - her claim is she can "borrow the peception of beings from the fourth dimension" and therefore look down on her own world, but as I said, that's not a satisfying explanation because Blick doesn't have the ability to go into Coco's world and look at his own world's continuums.

Or perhaps he can but merely didn't! We're left to wonder.

A couple more points of clarification.

Spoiler:

1. Urashima Taro, will someone explain his legend?
2. Why does Ryogo Kaburaki have two last names? This was a confusing point to hear.

[Klashikari]

i think you should title your spoilers, it might avoid some issues later one ^^"

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

A couple more points of clarification.

Spoiler for end game:

1. Urashima Taro, will someone explain his legend?
2. Why does Ryogo Kaburaki have two last names? This was a confusing point to hear.

Spoiler for end game:

1. Urashima Taro was a fisherman. one day, he helped a turtle which was in trouble. As a gratuity, the turtle lead him to the princess of the Dragon Palace, underwater. He stayed in this place several days, but the time pass differently in this area. (in reality, 700 years have passed). The princess is aware of this however. When Urashima Taro is going to leave, the princess gave him a sealed box, and told him to never open it. As you might expect, Taro discovered that his family died. Grieved, he open the box, which is revealed that it contained his true age. he died afterwards.

2. 2 last names? where did you see that?

[Malintex_Terek]

Spoiler:

Hearing the story of Urashima Taro sort of makes me feel Hirameki shouldn't have localized the story, since there ARE a number of simmilarities between Yaobikuni and Taro's stories, moreso than Rip van Winkel (who we know to be fictional). However, given the brevity of Taro's mentioning in the game, I can't really hold that against Hirameki.

Regarding Kaburaki's name, he says his name is "Kaburaki Ryogo" then "Suzunori Ryogo".

[4as]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Spoiler:

Regarding Kaburaki's name, he says his name is "Kaburaki Ryogo" then "Suzunori Ryogo".

What? Where did you see that?

[kgptzac]

Probably in Coco's arc and the ED video

Spoiler for Ryogo's name:

"Suzu nori" are actually the pronouncation of kanji of Ryogo's name, although I think they are meant to match "Ryogo", not "Kaburaki"...

[Malintex_Terek]

Spoiler:

So, Ryogo is like his nickname, and Suzunori the correct full-name? Like "William" and "Bill"?

[daedalus6]

ow so much spoilers!! :P I will enjoy reading this thread over again once I have finished the game...(If I am able to buy it )

but in anycase ....when I play the game in which order should I finish the stories?

[4as]

It doesnt matter, but probably Takeshi's routs are better for start.

[Klashikari]

I second "takeshi's routes first".

the common "order" to play the game is like this :
1) Takeshi's route : Tsugumi
2) Takeshi's route : Sora
3) Kid's route : You
4) Kid's route : Sara

basically, Kid's routes gives some insight for Takeshi's route. thus, the hints and reference can be missed or too obscure if you didn't get through takeshi's route first.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I second "takeshi's routes first".

the common "order" to play the game is like this :
1) Takeshi's route : Tsugumi
2) Takeshi's route : Sora
3) Kid's route : You
4) Kid's route : Sara

basically, Kid's routes gives some insight for Takeshi's route. thus, the hints and reference can be missed or too obscure if you didn't get through takeshi's route first.

follow this man's suggestion, it's the right way to go

[Malintex_Terek]

Actually, Yotsuba gave me a totally inverted flight plan for the game - they suggested:

1. You (Kid)
2. Sara (Kid)
3. Tsugumi (Takeshi)
4. Sora (Takeshi)

The reasoning being You's path touches on every aspect of the game, which arms one with a slight knowledge of everything happening in the game. Tsugumi's route isn't as good as Sora's (in my view, anyway) and Yotsuba apaprently thinks so as well, so the two routes get middle treatment.

My own path:

Takeshi (Bad End) - > You (Good End) -> Sora (Good End) -> Sara (Good End) -> Sara (Bad End) -> You (Bad End) - > Tsugumi (Good End) -> Coco (True End)

Unsurprisingly, I disliked Tsugumi's Good End and both of Kid's Bad Ends.

[4as]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

i think you should title your spoilers, it might avoid some issues later one ^^"

(dint saw that one earlier)
Spoilers title is like a spoiler itself ;0

Takeshi seems to be a most commen choice for the first play.
I can even bet, that most first-time-Kid-players had been infuanced by spoilers or such.

I played this game completely with out any background check and went:
Tsugumi -> Sora -> Sara -> You.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

the common "order" to play the game is like this :
1) Takeshi's route : Tsugumi
2) Takeshi's route : Sora
3) Kid's route : You
4) Kid's route : Sara

pick Sara first than You.
Sora and You seem to have less action and more talking...

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Tsugumi's route isn't as good as Sora's

Blasphemy!

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by 4as

Blasphemy!

I have my reasons. Taken from a review I'm writing of the game on another forum:

Spoiler:

Tsugumi is supposedly the most popular of the Ever17 characters here and abroad, but really I disliked her path the most and was actually cheering for Takeshi at the end of it. In fact, "cheering" cannot completely convey what I felt, "went Gar" would be more accurate.

Such reasoning is two-fold. Tsugumi, whose path I originally wanted to play, turned out to be outrageously tsundere, to the point of annoyance (extreme emphasis on the 'tsun tsun'). Takeshi was a good-willed, agreeable fellow, with a lot more patience than I would have had - Tsugumi grinded his face into the pavement and then make a big deal about it later as if she was the victim. I dislike Matou Sakura from Fate/stay night for the same reason - she acts and is depicted in a way that implies she's not responsible for her actions and should be forgiven because of her background, but really that is in-excusable. "Heaven's Feel" is excellent in every way but Sakura, and frankly she should have stayed a demi-character and gone totally ignored by everyone in Fuyuki City.

Her background wasn't enough for me to forgive her for being such a jerk - when I was playing through the Bad End, I desperately wanted to know more about her and liked her earlier, cryptic talk and actions. But once Sora's development started, I abandoned Tsugumi because Sora was all the more interesting.

Additionally, the most time I spent on the game was devoted to obtaining Tsugumi's Path, which I missed one or two times after playing through the Bad End and Sora's Good End - she's just too difficult to please.

My second peev with Tsugumi is that she did a terrible deed in Sora's Path, but in effect it made Sora's Path all the more emotional. I guess in that sense Tsugumi sacrificed herself to prop Sora up on a pedestal, but I will always hate her for it. Especially since I didn't understand what happened there originally - it's tough to talk about, really.

[kgptzac]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Spoiler:

So, Ryogo is like his nickname, and Suzunori the correct full-name? Like "William" and "Bill"?

Spoiler for name:

Kaburaki Ryogo = 桑古木 凉権
Ryogo = 凉権

凉=suzu, 権=nori(?) I am not a Japanese expert, I don't know if 権=nori, but I'm sure "suzu" = 凉

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Actually, Yotsuba gave me a totally inverted flight plan for the game - they suggested:

1. You (Kid)
2. Sara (Kid)
3. Tsugumi (Takeshi)
4. Sora (Takeshi)

The reasoning being You's path touches on every aspect of the game, which arms one with a slight knowledge of everything happening in the game. Tsugumi's route isn't as good as Sora's (in my view, anyway) and Yotsuba apaprently thinks so as well, so the two routes get middle treatment.

My own path:

Takeshi (Bad End) - > You (Good End) -> Sora (Good End) -> Sara (Good End) -> Sara (Bad End) -> You (Bad End) - > Tsugumi (Good End) -> Coco (True End)

Unsurprisingly, I disliked Tsugumi's Good End and both of Kid's Bad Ends.

I would agree with starting with You's parth... partly because that's what I chose when I first played E17 :P basically a lot of questions are asked and discussed in You's path and if one likes to be presented to all the scattered details and likes to "play the detective", You's path is the way to go.

Spoiler:

well i guess i'd better put up the spoiler tag for this. basically i think the biggest mystery for me when was near the end of You's arc was the existence of Coco. also the intel on You's mother and death of his father was confusing but at the same time, was also motivating me to get to the bottom of this. Indeed I started E17 because of its mystery/suspense aspects, not romance. Although I didn't get most answers in the end of You's GE, I definitely wanted to finish the entire game after seeing my shining Yubiseiharukana sensei on Insel Null xD

So, simply said, the best thing for a player who likes mystery/suspense more than romance, getting thru You's path first is definitely an attracting factor.

After You's arc I went to Tsugumi's. Mainly because I didn't want to be on the Kid's perspective for another round. I think it's better this way because you are less likely to get bored of some of the recurring stuff.

About the bad endings... I would say none of the bad endings provide any insights on either the plot or the characters. Maybe I am influenced by games like R11 and want all BE for all games to present some kind of info that aren't available in the GE and helps me understand the game better.

Spoiler:

Needless to say, Takeshi's BE is the most powerful of the three. The reason simply is that everybody dies in their own ways... allow me to lol here. I can see this is a great opportunity to build up some emotions, but although I received some warning about its bloodiness beforehand (I went thru Coco's arc and then saw the bloody CG...), it was still hard to take after seeing everybody dies like that.

So other than to desire a feeling of complete by beating all endings in the game, it is only despair that you can get off of that BE, I'd say.

Kid's two BE are much more normal and less dramatic. I think for other games it's easier to reach the BE than have to take a shortcut and replay what's left to play--which in this case, 4 days. I do not mean one should skip the three BE altogether, I'm just saying BE are totally secondary and what I would do is to just get the 100% save file and take the shortcut to see the bad endings.

[kgptzac]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

I have my reasons. Taken from a review I'm writing of the game on another forum:

Spoiler:

Tsugumi is supposedly the most popular of the Ever17 characters here and abroad, but really I disliked her path the most and was actually cheering for Takeshi at the end of it. In fact, "cheering" cannot completely convey what I felt, "went Gar" would be more accurate.

Such reasoning is two-fold. Tsugumi, whose path I originally wanted to play, turned out to be outrageously tsundere, to the point of annoyance (extreme emphasis on the 'tsun tsun'). Takeshi was a good-willed, agreeable fellow, with a lot more patience than I would have had - Tsugumi grinded his face into the pavement and then make a big deal about it later as if she was the victim. I dislike Matou Sakura from Fate/stay night for the same reason - she acts and is depicted in a way that implies she's not responsible for her actions and should be forgiven because of her background, but really that is in-excusable. "Heaven's Feel" is excellent in every way but Sakura, and frankly she should have stayed a demi-character and gone totally ignored by everyone in Fuyuki City.

Her background wasn't enough for me to forgive her for being such a jerk - when I was playing through the Bad End, I desperately wanted to know more about her and liked her earlier, cryptic talk and actions. But once Sora's development started, I abandoned Tsugumi because Sora was all the more interesting.

Additionally, the most time I spent on the game was devoted to obtaining Tsugumi's Path, which I missed one or two times after playing through the Bad End and Sora's Good End - she's just too difficult to please.

My second peev with Tsugumi is that she did a terrible deed in Sora's Path, but in effect it made Sora's Path all the more emotional. I guess in that sense Tsugumi sacrificed herself to prop Sora up on a pedestal, but I will always hate her for it. Especially since I didn't understand what happened there originally - it's tough to talk about, really.

Spoiler for Tsugumi's path:

First I'd want to say thanks for letting me see an insight different from the mass. It made me to reconsider what makes Tsugumi so popular--at least as a character. The answer came rather quickly: Tsugumi's popularity would greatly depreciate if there isn't a Coco's arc.

When I was going through Tsugumi's arc, I really disliked how she treated everybody especially Takeshi. At first, I didn't buy into all that personal history stuff which doesn't really justify anything. But, I didn't not see anything seriously unlogical about their development of relationship. Tsugumi had some kind of complex of trusting people especially men. (Actually from the VFB, the official answer for why tsugumi was annoyed by Takeshi so much in the beginning because she sees him as her old self as in friendship with Julia--somebody who tries to be helpful but really can't do a thing to help.) Takeshi's patience and bravery/thoughtlessness melted the iceburg and finally earned a partner and probably girlfriend in the end.

Things are still in range with the classic galgame style. But random tragedy strikes--at least it appears to be "random"--Takeshi sacrifices himself to let Tsugumi live. Then Tsugumi gave birth to Takeshi's children... and finally 17 years later all have returned to the promised place. My conlcusion is: half of what makes Tsugumi the #1 female of E17 everywhere are her motherhood and her hardship endured during the 17 years.

To me, Tsugumi is much more appealing as a character than her arc.

Now with Sora... I cannot remember whether her or Tsugumi was more mysterious the first time I played. But I think Sora's path is equally well done as Tsugumi's path. Interestingly enough, Sora's path requires a lot more things be done at Takeshi's side and it's still Tsugumi who is "harder to please". In a few places Takeshi has to say stuff harsh on the surface to Tsugumi to earn her points, something tricky for all playing the game for the first time.

I can see you don't like Tsugumi's type of characters. I don't like the "icebergs" either and if nothing goes wrong, they are the last persons to complete in a typical galgame for me. I don't really get you when yous said she did a horrible deed in Sora's arc... Do you mean she "makes" Takeshi go into an unshown ero scene with her or she does not offer her blood to help with making the vaccine? I wouldn't call either of those "horrible" because Takeshi is half responsible for both of those "misdeeds".