Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[omimon]

Which one was sadder, between the three deaths how would you rank them?
For me its:
Kyoko
Mami
Sayaka

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But does it really matter if he's an alien, a demon, or something else? He was obviously not of our known world.

If he said he was the personification of this thread, it would make as much sense as anything else.

This.

The whole issue of whether Incubator being "sci-fi" is a problem seems like a complete non-issue to me. Who really cares if it's a demon or an alien? Fantasy and sci-fi (and I love both, so don't start) are just words. Is Lovecraft fantasy or sci-fi? Or horror? Does it matter? What really matters is that Incubator is alien to the reality of the real-world 21st-Century human condition - be it magic or science is inconsequential. What matters are its motives and its actions.

[MeoTwister5]

Moral outrage is fundamentally a personal matter. You can't exactly claim to be morally outraged for someone else, nor vice versa.

As for Inkyubeytor, he is essentially evil by human standards but apparently not by his society's standards. He uses girls for his own ends in a world that deems such sacrifices immoral, but his own society deems it a necessary act. He is apparently attempting to do something for the objectively (for now) greater good, but does subjective evils. How exactly are you supposed to weigh this fact among others? What scale do you use? Are they even equatable?

I again refer back to a discussion with Triple R and panzer: In the end the only way to bring this two together is if there's one singular moral authority figure that is the final arbiter for the entire system to mediate between both sides. Legally speaking justice is a concept of fairness and not really right from wrong. More importantly, the moral authority should be able to compel either side to adhere to their standard, and we as observers can do nothing to change it. If we knew what that was, that's really the only way to make a final label whether Inkyubeytor is in the end good or evil.

[F.I.A]

I still cannot get why people think Kyubee's race is justified for their method in countering entropy. Especially with the drawback of MG turning into Witches. Consider these situations:

What-if #1: All witches are eliminated without a trace by the MGs.
End result: MGs will soon turn into witches when they ran out of methods to clean their soul gems, and then to counter the new witches, newer MGs are contracted

Sure, that will just be some twisted cycle, but...

What-if #2: What if MGs start hogging/farming off witches for their dear life?
End result: More humans will die to nurture witches. MGs slaying each other will also mean leaving more witches unattended, leading to more deaths.

Sooner or later, that will just doom humanity altogether. Like, since when killing off a single race is not a cosmic crime?


@ Related to Walpurgis: What odds of Homura asking for other MGs from other district to help along? Or it's the whole Karas rule all over again?

[Dawnbringerz]

IMO, this sci-fi Entropy thing is probably something to take away our attention, like a left jab.

QB has never failed to left out the most important piece of information, and I believe his explanation in this episode is the same also.

The energy obtained from SG turning into GS might really do help counter energy loss problem for the universe, but there might be some other byproduct that QB's race really wants. He just need to use this sci-fi story to make a sale with Madoka, and get her to sign the contract. There is no need to tell her anything more than this Entropy BS, which might be nothing but a trivial matter that nobody in the universe cares about.

The truth will probably show up in the remaining 3 episodes, catching us off guard like a right hook.

[Dr. Casey]

Sayaka's death is easily the saddest to me, mainly because of everything leading up to it. The downward spiral in episodes seven and eight is a lot more powerful to me knowing that things never get better. A bitter end to a bitter story. Kyoko went down in a blaze of glory, I find her death sad only in the sense that I liked her a lot and think the series will be missing something without her. Mami's in last. I like her quite a bit, but she might be my least favorite character in Madoka Magica (Maybe because she only appears in what I think is the weakest part of the show; I find the early series enjoyable, but don't think the story hits its stride until episode four). Her death is dramatic, shocking, and nicely-done, but it never made me sad. The best thing about Mami's death to me was the aftershock it sent through the next episode.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, technically, preventing or delaying universal entropy isn't an issue of "self-benefit" alone. It benefits all species, long term, to prevent or at least delay universal entropy.

The point being, that the girls Kyube contracts get screwed and are clearly on the losing end of this deal that only really serves Kyube and his cause in the end.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's ways this could have been foreshadowed without revealling Kyubey's hidden motives all along. Have Madoka's mom watch a news report talking about increased solar flare activity, and scientists worrying about that. That would have been something, at least, imo.

The foreshadowing for universal entropy was Kyube's obsession with magical energy and his desire to contract Madoka.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think that it's a gross exaggeration. It's a slight exaggeration, in my opinion. One designed to get the point across.

But like I said it doesn't. Your example clearly shows the introduction of sci-elements that had nothing to do with the plot before hand which only served to interrupt everything that was going on. In no shape or form did Madoka do this.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, but let's be honest here - very few people saw him as an alien in the sci-fi sense of the term "alien".

He is something not of this world. Be it fantasy or sci-fi in nature, it doesn't matter. What was clear from the start was that he was a non-human entity that doesn't exactly sympathize with humans.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My point is that there's a certain incongruity to using Faust allusions in Episode 3 and then bringing in heavy sci-fi elements in Episode 9. Basically, this anime was giving an overarching "archaic medieval europe witchcraft" feel to me, only that this was impacting on modern Japan. Now it goes from that to a sci-fi feel. I find it a bit jarring.

Which I am saying is there was no faust allusion ever made. It doesn't fit technically speaking.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When you do a sci-fi/fantasy fusion upfront, it's easier to avoid having one or the other come across as overly dominant, and hence there's less of a jarring effect than what you may have if you introduce the other one much later on.

I don't see how it is jarring. It didn't shift the elements of the plot really. Whether or not Kyube told us his motivations, the character's actions would not have changed. It just helped the audience understand where he's coming from, and why he's doing what he is doing. Homura still has the task to keep Madoka out of Walprugis night either way.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. I think it's out of left field, and it feels a bit incongruent to me.

We may simply have to agree to disagree here, Reckoner.

We may have to.

[Solace]

I have no clue on the ending at this point. This episode took a lot of my preconceptions about where things were going and threw them out the window. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. This episode was actually incredibly revealing, although there's so much left to know. I guess I'll just go through some points as I think of them:

1. Kyubey's plan is ultimately flawed. Once Madoka becomes the ultimate witch, who can stop her? Mankind would be doomed either way. She would just be a stopgap anyway, eventually more emotions would need to be farmed for the universe. Taking your best source of that out of the picture feels counterproductive.

2. Madoka stating that Kyubey was her enemy speaks a lot for her character growth.

3. I found it interesting that Kyubey again states that Magical Girls defy logic. He's basically saying that they do things that shouldn't be possible, even the unexpected, but that he isn't surprised by it either (heh, lack of emotion at work).

4. I found it interesting that the building Witch Sayaka was in was very similar to the one in the OP (all the chain link fences and "unfinished" feel).

5. Kyoko really did see a lot of herself in Sayaka. It is irony that it is because of Sayaka she found redemption, and through Kyoko, Sayaka found peace. Definitely a fated pair.

6. Kyoko told Madoka something that no one else could, which is that you should fight because you have no other choice. If a better option exists, always take it.

7. Following this, Kyubey basically tells Homura "I win". However, examining this I'm still questioning what he really wants (outside of Madoka). See, Homura has changed history through her actions. Consider that without her interference Madoka would have contracted already and we might not have seen the deaths of Mami, Sakuya, or Kyoko. However, because those three have died, and because of Homura preventing Madoka from contracting, this present day version of Madoka is completely different from her past self.

It is possible that Madoka would have burned through her great power quickly, being unaware of what would happen eventually. The fact that Homura is fighting the UberWitch by herself in the opening tells us that Madoka is not alive/contracted in the future Homura came from. I have the feeling that the image of Madoka and Homura holding a bow together has more meaning than well drawn art.

8. I really don't know how this show will end, but I think we're still on track for something that will prevent Kyubey from getting what he wants while still saving the world.

9. I'm not a fan of doom and gloom endings. I prefer my doom and gloom to be topped off with a nice happy desert at the end. However that seems pretty dim at the moment. Homura's death flag hasn't gone away, so I think the OP showing Madoka by herself for the most part holds meaning. No clue on the cat, but I'm guessing it's more remembrance than actually being Homura in cat form.

10. That said I'd like a reset ending. I know people hate them thanks to the infamous Mai Hime ending but that doesn't mean you can't have a reset done properly. The problem with Mai's was that it came out of nowhere, introduced at the last minute and felt very "gimmicky". Sure it was feel good, but the execution of the reset was horrible.

Madoka has a better justification for a reset because technically one already happened: episode 1. This and Kyubey shoving it in our faces that Madoka is "The One" make it feasible. That said, it's just something I'd like to see. I know others feel differently and of course there's Gen writing the script which doesn't help the odds.

11. Not showing Sayaka's Grief Seed bothers me. The common thinking is "corpse or it didn't happen", but Kyoko kept the corpse alive and then killed herself doing exactly what she was mentioning as hope: cutting the witch in half and Sayaka being restored. Not likely, but it would be funny to see Kyubey getting screwed over after he just told Homura that she was the only one left to fight unless Madoka contracted, and then Sayaka shows up. Oh, my wild imagination.

12. Bokurano. Hated it.

[scr]

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Mmm, I'm going to start off by saying I am probably debating a bit just because I like debates as long as they don't go wildly off course and don't devolve into just slander. I'm going to try to avoid that but if you think my arguments are stupid or just don't want to continue though just let me know and I'll drop it =) Anyway, no, my statement was arguing because you believe it is 'evil' and I was trying to make an argument against that, although it is clearly amoral, a sociopath by human standards, alien, and almost certainly the antagonist in the series. I fully get that your opinion is that it is evil.

Yes, he _is_ Evil because he is morally bankrupt, and he is morally bankrupt because (amongst other things) he is amoral and is a sociopath.

Seriously, at this point I dont like attacking or defending arguments about whether QB is Evil or just plain alien in morality (or Good all along). The last time I participated in this kind of discussion was in the end of 2008 when Ga-Rei -Zero- aired. Let's just say that things weren't civil, and there was no conclusion. The closest thing we had to a conclusion was that the character we discussed need to be stopped, that's all.

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Mmm, ok, let me deconstruct a few parts about this argument:

1) Are you aware of drugs like Procrit, Vioxx, and others? Procrit is an EPO used to treat anemia, primarily in cancer patients who may or may not be in chemo or radiation therapy. You may know it more commonly as the drug cyclers (like Lance Armstrong) might take to boost their red blood cell levels as a PED. Procrit was like most drugs heavily researched, went through extensive clinical trials, had millions if not billions of dollars poured into it, and yes, cost into the "stellar levels". Almost all cancer patients get anemic at some point, so it was routine to give them Procrit regardless of whether they were on chemo or radiation. Are you aware that later studies showed that for cancer patients who weren't actively on chemo and radiation therapy though that Procrit had little benefit and that it actually led to deaths of some of those patients that were not directly related to their cancer?

How about vioxx, a drug for osteoarthritis and acute pain. I'm sure you have heard of the lawsuits for its increase in chance for heart attacks. Whether all the lawsuits are justified or not is of course questionable. Numerous were thrown out. However it is without a doubt true that the drug has an increased chance of heart attack AND it was not properly documented, warned, or even known about before the drug was released. This is a major drug from Merck that went through extensive testing, extensive clinical trial, thousands of clinical trial subjects, and yet still didn't find all the side effects. Testing isn't perfect. It is basically impossible to cover every co-morbidity and concomitant medication and even just the various factors like ages, gender, and more. It is NOT neat and clean. You seem to be [b]a bit idealistic in thinking[b] that drug companies can [b]actually test everything[b] about these things before release and no issues ever pop up.

>It is NOT neat and clean
I never stated anywhere that things were, are, or will ever be neat and clean. You provided examples, and I don't (more like, cant) deny those examples. Those are the mess. There is this drug (forgot the name) that causes fetus to be born with no arms, and instead their fingers extends from where arms should extends from the body. And this drug was an accepted treatment (for the disease it's supposed to combat) for pregnant women, for many, many years before the DEA (and the rest of the world) figured it out and ban it. *shudders*

>[b]You seem to be a bit idealistic in thinking[b]
I'm not "a bit idealistic". I'm "idealistic, and obnoxiously so". But maybe it's because I'm outside the medical world. I'm more or less an engineer, and I know how the business practices of major corporations harm the interest of the public. As in, "we should get X and Y tech now, but due to copyrights/business model/the cartels/interests of powerful external parties, we wont see them anytime soon".

The Free Software Movement is there to erode this monopoly of knowledge, btw. Are they idealistic? Yes they are. Do they succeed? Let's just say that there are results. If no one were idealistic, the intarwebz won't thrive as much as it's now, since there would have been corporate assholes who hog the HTTP server technology and wall themselves behind copyright laws.

Originally Posted by ruurguy

2) Deconstructing a different part, are you aware of how much research we have done using animals. Is this "wrong"? Some people believe it is. Animal rights activists are a huge force. In order to get sufficient sample to determine efficacy on a large number of subjects it seems like a "necessary evil" to test on animals. What is your opinion on this? Does a couple of hundred mice or other animals make a difference to you? Let's say that it is your only shot to prove some efficacy in your drug that otherwise would never get funding. This drug has to potential to save millions of people. Is this a necessary evil? What if we are the gerbils and mice to the QB? Ok, the entropy thing is kinda stupid in a pseudo science fiction sort of way. But we'll just substitute it with some other "for the greater good" ideal.

>Is this "wrong"?
I believe so. But instead of that being "necessary evil", I prefer to call it "the lesser of two evils". Maybe I should rant about "what measure is a sentience" and the moral implications/consequences of the various valid measures, but to me the final answer is "sacrifice 1000+ mouse to save the Littlest Cancer Patient".

But... we don't need to continue sacrificing 1000+ mouse. Breakthroughs in human Lord genome mapping will allow us to study how diseases interact with the human body without actually screwing the human body itself, and completely synthesis new treatments from the ground up ("medicine calculus") instead of "Mouse A take X dose of experimental Medicine J, Mouse B take X+0.01 dose, Mouse C take X-0.02 dose. See which one survives, if any". It wont be simple, but the road is there.

Oh, and Madoka and co aren't mouse, obviously.

Originally Posted by ruurguy

If you don't want to go into animals, how about the patients we use for actual clinical trials? Subjects for say a Phase III clinical trial are sick, in pain, or otherwise in need of medical attention with possibly a variety of things and are mostly volunteers. The drugs we find may kill them prematurely. But they were going to die anyway, and we found a safety risk because of them. Is this a necessary evil? They volunteered afterall to be test subjects. While some patients I guess wouldn't mind doing the greater good by showing there was a risk, I'm sure most of them are taking the drug in the hopes it is the miracle to make them better. To save them from a terminal illness or to relieve them of pain, etc.

IANADoctor, I really should not be giving opinions on this. At the very least, I say that it should be treated on a case-by-case basis, in which everyone concerned should be deeply involved: the doctors, the patient, the patient's relatives, etc.

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Drug development is extremely hard, extremely time consuming, extremely expensive, and most of all, still imperfect. A lot of time and effort is going into designing better clinical trials, reducing costs, limiting risks, but if you think it is perfect and tested drugs never have issues you are sorely mistaken. That is reality.

>but if you think it is perfect and tested drugs never have issues you are sorely mistaken
I never say that drugs are invariably "perfect" and immaculately pass all "tests", let alone "perfect and tested for every possible situation that will ever happen in the known and unknown universe". Why do you keep equating me for some kind of Sayaka-esque Wide Eyed Idealist?

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Sure. Are you trying to use the definition "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one"? Because that is not actually what occam's razor is technically. It is that you must have reason for bringing in plurality (basically extraneous assumptions and arguments) should not be brought in without cause. I am of course arguing that there is possibly cause beyond "it is evil". Occam's razor means we should tend toward the simpler theories, but it does not meant that the simplest theory is the right one.

>you must have reason for bringing in plurality
Yes, but what I see is that you keep defending QB by bringing in arguments that are even harder to prove or disprove than what QB himself was presenting . TVTropes call it "Voodoo Shark".

Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm attacking you(r intellect). Other than discussing things that have happened in the episode, this thread is also partially a speculah thread. It's perfectly fine to craft and present speculah, but at least those speculah must be based on things that actually happened. QB never stated that his race (which he implies to have Omniscient Morality License) tried other things.

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Yup, I hope so too personally that they figure something out. I am just hoping it isn't TOO sweet and far fetched. Damn you Mai Hime -_-

Eh, I actually like Mai-HiME. I'm a sucker for Earn Your Happy Ending type of story.

Oh, and let me know if you dont want to continue the discussion.

[Shadow5YA]

Some people are getting a bit too stuck up on the whole "entropy" idea. The point is not that it's a scientific term that we can understand, but that Kyubey is serving a cause through means that no human can approve of.

The point of Kyubey having an extraterrestrial origin and his cause being a scientific one is to reinforce his lack of human emotion. Giving him a magical origin like being some fairy from a different universe isn't the same. Science and technology fits Kyubey because it is ruled purely by logic.


As for whether Kyubey is "evil", drop it. There are too many different opinions on what determines "evil," whether it is ultimately the action or intention, or if it is the intention, whether the person is aware that what he is doing is wrong but still does it anyway. Unless a consensus on what makes a character "evil" is reached, this debate will never come to an end.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This.

The whole issue of whether Incubator being "sci-fi" is a problem seems like a complete non-issue to me. Who really cares if it's a demon or an alien? Fantasy and sci-fi (and I love both, so don't start) are just words. Is Lovecraft fantasy or sci-fi? Or horror? Does it matter? What really matters is that Incubator is alien to the reality of the real-world 21st-Century human condition - be it magic or science is inconsequential. What matters are its motives and its actions.

It's both . Most people here don't know what people are referring to when they say "Lovecraft" though.

And if what QB says of his motives are true, he is either a hero or villain, depending on what perspective you look at it from.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Some people are getting a bit too stuck up on the whole "entropy" idea. The point is not that it's a scientific term that we can understand, but that Kyubey is serving a cause through means that no human can approve of.

The point of Kyubey having an extraterrestrial origin and his cause being a scientific one is to reinforce his lack of human emotion. Giving him a magical origin like being some fairy from a different universe isn't the same. Science and technology fits Kyubey because it is ruled purely by logic.


As for whether Kyubey is "evil", drop it. There are too many different opinions on what determines "evil," whether it is ultimately the action or intention, or if it is the intention, whether the person is aware that what he is doing is wrong but still does it anyway. Unless a consensus on what makes a character "evil" is reached, this debate will never come to an end.

Ahaha I laugh. "No human would approve of?" Bullshit. If we were standing on the other side of the fence, you can bet your horses that we would do exactly the same thing, if not worse. Our history as a race is littered with examples of humans causing other humans cause to benefit themselves.

Originally Posted by scr

Yes, he _is_ Evil because he is morally bankrupt, and he is morally bankrupt because (amongst other things) he is amoral and is a sociopath.

What? Morally bankrupt does not equate being amoral. And how is he a sociopath? Please pull out your DSM-IV-TR, because the last time I checked, he is most definitely not a sociopath.

[Solace]

Taofd, reply in one post if possible. We don't need six posts in a row from one person quoting individual responses.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

a very emotional episode. i can't help but feel so sad about kyoko dying as well. T__T but it's really touching that she wanted to stay by sayaka's side, choosing to take herself too. TTT____TTT i like kyoko. she even finally had become friends with madoka..but too bad..T___T i feel so bad. kyoko's determination to save sayaka was the best thing about this episode for me.

that said, i'm kinda happy she has sayaka with her in the 'afterlife'(if there's one foe them) and yeah, sayaka x kyoko ftfw!!! XD

homura's facade faltered a bit in here and it's a nice thing to see. it only meant that she cared about kyoko.T__T but heck!! she's the only remaining MG now which tells that madoka's dream is gonna happen. DX ohgawd, i dunno what's gonna happen after that.


btw, GAWD. QB..fellah, i dunno what to think of you.

"If you feel like dying for this universe, just call us. We'll be waiting!"

but yeah, i guess you're really amoral unless you're definitely lying about anything you say(albeit i get this feeling that you ain't lying at all). *sigh*

in any case though, i believe QB's the best 'villain'(?) i've ever heard of.XDD

EXCELLENT EPISODE!!!

now, give mah ep 10!!!

[symbv]

Wow, never underestimate the level of otaku in Japan. They found out that the questions shown in Ep.9 where Homura's class were trying to solve came from the Tokyo University entrance examination in 1992:




CAME FROM



Basically it gave the formula of the general expression of an indefinite term from the Fibonacci sequence, and it asks to solve the case when X_1=1, X_2=10, X_3=101, X_4=10110... (for the number in each digit, 1->10 and 0->1 in the next term). Find
- How many digits there are for X_n
- How many times the pattern of "01" appear in X_n

Tokyo University is considered the topmost university in Japan so the entrance exam is notoriously difficult. And those girls are at grade 8 I heard???

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by taofd

Ahaha I laugh. "No human would approve of?" Bullshit. If we were standing on the other side of the fence, you can bet your horses that we would do exactly the same thing, if not worse. Our history as a race is littered with examples of humans causing other humans cause to benefit themselves.

If we standing on the other side.

However, as it stands no human benefits from the Incubation process, while many are harmed. There is no way a person on the losing end would approve.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

「まどかもこの宇宙のために死んでくれる気になったらいつでも声をかけて、待ってるからね（笑 ）」
Incubator:"Call me out when you've decided die for the sake of the Universe, Madoka. I'll be waiting."

杏子「さやかを助ける方法は何か無いの？」
Kyouko: "Is there no way to save Sayaka?"
QB「前例が無いから、僕にも方法はわからない」
Incubator: "I do not really know of a way since there is no precedence."

↓（杏子死亡後） (After Kyouko's death)

ほむら「佐倉杏子にさやかを救える望みはあったの？」
Homura:"Was there any chance for Sakura Kyouko to have rescued Sayaka?"
QB「まさか。そんなのあるわけないじゃないか。」
Incubator: "No. There is definitely no way for that to have happened."

Spoiler for damn you kyubey:

thanks for reminder.....
QB is really emotionless (well, we can't blame him for it since he is maybe somekind of alien)

argh! Kyoko is gone right now... why should they kill my favourite character one by one (Mami and Kyoko).... hope they won't kill Homura until the ending of anime

Then, this will be hard for Homura for fighting a witch queen.... we can see it from the prologue in episode 1 right?

[Edict]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The point of Kyubey having an extraterrestrial origin and his cause being a scientific one is to reinforce his lack of human emotion. Giving him a magical origin like being some fairy from a different universe isn't the same. Science and technology fits Kyubey because it is ruled purely by logic.

Kyubei's reasons are not independent of self-interest, whether individually, in mind of its species continuance or all sentient existence collectively. There is a value placed on existence which categorically belongs to, if not necessitates, an ethical consideration. Indeed Kyubei's tenets of justification follow this reasoning. Whether it is ethically just is another matter in itself.

[scr]

Originally Posted by taofd

What? Morally bankrupt does not equate being amoral. And how is he a sociopath? Please pull out your DSM-IV-TR, because the last time I checked, he is most definitely not a sociopath.

When you have no money, you're financially bankrupt (or at least can, or sometimes must, file bankruptcy). Thus when you (deliberately) have no-moral, you're morally bankrupt.

A sociopath is someone who lacks compassion to others. Good implies compassion. Henceforth, QB is Evil by the virtue of being a sociopath.

[alu546]

Keywords by Kyuube in his explanation to madoka.

huma0nity, girls, earth,big one: "WE"

as in it isnt just him there, or more would come after he dies/leave/eats cake

Incubator is a race, not just him.

[Mentar]

Well... there's a reason that I didn't write down any pre-airing predictions this time: Because I was honestly unsure where the story was about to go. And it won't get very much easier in ep10.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around a couple of things and sort the clues out, but I'll dump some of my near-unprocessed thoughts here.

1) The Entropy story doesn't wash. I've said it before, but just because QB was trying to avoid direct lies in the past doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if he deemed it necessary. I suspect that this is where we are now - his actions and deceptions have become untenable, so he's dishing up a huge confusing lie to stay in business. And coincidentally, the remaining offer ("die for the sake of the universe") hits Madoka's weakest point: Her readiness to consider sacrifice for the sake of others.

2) One of the reasons why I'm more convinced than ever that QB is lying is that in this episode, he claimed to be unable to understand human emotions. This is patently untrue. Through the entire show, he was always EXACTLY there where he could hope to coax a contract out of people. Remember Sayaka? He claimed to walk off to find other girls, and all of a sudden, Kamijou has a nervous breakdown, and QB is just conveniently around to facilitate Sayaka's impulse contract. I don't believe in this coincidence: He knew how to use Sayaka's feelings to snare her. He knew how to present his case to girls for maximum effect. He knew what to conceal, and how to deflect questions which would unmask him. And now, when there's no credible defense remaining, he's dishing out a confusing BS story with tons of logical holes as final pitch.

3) Based on QB's story, "they" (interesting how easily he switched from "I" to "we") "found" the power of emotion. But how likely is it that anyone would "find" a cyclic system like the MG one? Who grants the wish - the system or someone else? If someone else: Why would the wish affect what magic the MGs would wield? All of this doesn't fit at all. The way I see it, the MG system was _engineered_. A purposeful creation as means to an end. Not "found".

4) Sayaka/Kyoko final scene: Just showing a bright "boom" means for me that it will be relevant later in the story what happened there. Otherwise, we'd have death/disappearing/transformation animations. They're out of the picture for now, but they're not out of the story. We will see more than this.