School Rumble manga (raw discussion only)

[wtflux]

i suck at quotes on forums, forgive me.

"Now that she's told him directly, why is he so upset?"

because he has pride too. he was feeling indomitable, and he found out she wasnt crazily in love with him(which is what he thought). ouch! shot down! you have to remember that when he says 'did i screw up?' he is thinking not that he made eri dislike him(she says she never did love him), but that he made himself look like an idiot. although since i believe he finds eri to be a friend, or something like that(he called her 'a nice girl' or something earlier), i wouldn't be surprised if he's mad at himself for possibly ruining whatever it was they had too, especially since i don't think he would believe yakumo was completely wrong in her analysis.

in other words, harima is probably sad both because:
1. he made himself look foolish at a high point
2. he thinks he ruined whatever he had with eri(i.e. misunderstood interest for head-over-heels love).

as for the 'disgusting' part, the fact that he could ever get so bloated an ego in the first place(and then ACT upon it) would would warrant such a comment =p



"From an immature and selfish standpoint, love may seem like a magical place where a magical person comes along and magically fixes all of our problems for us. A person thinking along these lines isn't looking for a relationship - they're looking for a tool to solve their inner problems for them (which is something that every person can only resolve on their own). Once the thrill of acquisition wears off, such people start taking their relationships for granted.

We love people for what we do for them, not for what they do for us."

this is all very good, and true if you ask me(except for the last part--i love someone because of the way they are and, admittedly, the way they look--unless you meant something more abstract), but unfortunately we are reading KJ's manga, not yours. he can do what he wants with the characters and relationships, without paying attention to reality.

either way, the relationship between harima and yakumo isn't slave and master anyways--it's a normal relationship, but yakumo happens to be very nice, intelligent, and considerate of/caring for harima. the idea of a "yamato nadeshiko" that i described in my previous post is not 'a doll that lets you do her,' it's a personification of ideals of womanliness.

i haven't read the chapter yet myself. but from what it sounds like, an important point to consider is that we only see harima's point of view in this chapter--what eri is thinking isn't revealed at all, which is very important because as a 'rich girl' she is very good at controlling herself(as i believe has been shown in the past).

wontaek, i have to agree with most of your wife's analysis so far =p i don't think KJ looks down on tenma though(she may be stupid but she has a big heart and an endless well of positivity(unless she realizes she has done something bad); that's what i love about her, it's usually not someone's fault if they're stupid anyways), and i definitely don't think he observed yakumo from afar.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Well, it doesn't look like we're in disagreement so far.

By definition, when you make a fool of yourself, you do so in front of another person. So the idea of Harima making a fool of himself cannot be taken in isolation - he has messed up by making a fool of himself in front of Eri. The fact that he considers this to be significant is in agreement with the points that I made earlier.

Perhaps, but Harima was more concerned with the damage to his self-image, i.e. what Harima thinks of himself as opposed to what Eri thinks of him.

I dunno. Like last chapter, this could go in many different ways depending on Harima's reaction. From what little we saw, I don't expect Harima's romantic attitudes towards Tenma and Eri to change based on these events, but it is possible.

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by wtflux

because he has pride too. he was feeling indomitable, and he found out she wasnt crazily in love with him(which is what he thought). ouch! shot down!

It should be good that Eri shot him down, right? That means that Harima can now follow his love without being loved by someone else.

Originally Posted by wtflux

you have to remember that when he says 'did i screw up?' he is thinking not that he made eri dislike him(she says she never did love him), but that he made himself look like an idiot.

As Swampstorm mentioned, making yourself look like an idiot involves an audience viewing you as an idiot. In this case, the audience is really only Eri.

Originally Posted by wtflux

especially since i don't think he would believe yakumo was completely wrong in her analysis.

The first thing we’re shown Harima trying to do after hearing Yakumo’s revelation is denying that Eri likes him. In other words, he tries to convince himself that Yakumo is wrong. This, and other events, strongly suggest Harima wants to believe that Eri does not love him, and people have a very strong tendency to believe what they want to believe, regardless of what other people tell them. For example, Harima constantly manages to convince himself that Tenma loves him because he wants to believe that Tenma loves him, despite nothing Tenma says actually meaning that she loves him.

Originally Posted by wtflux

either way, the relationship between harima and yakumo isn't slave and master anyways--it's a normal relationship, but yakumo happens to be very nice, intelligent, and considerate of/caring for harima. the idea of a "yamato nadeshiko" that i described in my previous post is not 'a doll that lets you do her,' it's a personification of ideals of womanliness.

Yakumo does what Harima wants, and Harima does nothing in return for Yakumo; that is a master-slave relationship. If characters like Yakumo and Rei Ayanami are supposed to represent this idealized woman in Japan, then the ideals of womanliness in Japan are basically those of a slave/servant.

Originally Posted by wtflux

I haven't read the chapter yet myself. but from what it sounds like, an important point to consider is that we only see harima's point of view in this chapter--what eri is thinking isn't revealed at all, which is very important because as a 'rich girl' she is very good at controlling herself(as i believe has been shown in the past).

You probably should read the chapter before discussing it. In fact, what Eri’s thinking is shown in the very last panel and is not entirely absent.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Adam E

Yakumo does what Harima wants, and Harima does nothing in return for Yakumo; that is a master-slave relationship. If characters like Yakumo and Rei Ayanami are supposed to represent this idealized woman in Japan, then the ideals of womanliness in Japan are basically those of a slave/servant.

That's about right, sadly. As the old James Bond You Only Live Twice quote goes:
"In Japan, men come first and women come second."

And the Austin Powers reply:
"Or sometimes, not at all!"

[wtflux]

hmm, just read the chapter.

now even i am curious about whether eri's feelings have changed or were as serious as KJ made them out to be in the past =/ which is bad. seems like he's just making it up on the fly, the scene in which eri ripped up the manga looked like it had everyone fooled. now tougou says he knew about it beforehand? whatever.

eri really views love as a battlefield. i'd say it's true that she only tore up a fake paper because she didn't want harima bugging her about it(or maybe even precisely BECAUSE she didn't know how important it was to him). but, harima asked the wrong question. what he should have asked was 'why did you put me into that situation in the first place?' unfortunately harima wouldn't have noticed that it wasnt in the script, so had no means of coming to that question =/ eri put harima in that situation because she wanted to see what his answer would be under pressure.

i don't believe eri no longer has feelings for harima. she knew what the consequence would be if she let him feel smug about his lack of love for her(which he clearly was), or his supposed ability to womanize--she'd just be the woman who wanted him but couldn't have him. i think that soon we will get to see what eri feels about this, and i think harima will attempt to make up to eri.

bottom line, she said she hadn't given up after the manga tearing incident. she knows harima's pretty madly in love with tenma. she was probably prepared for something like this and her response to harima was probably part of a 'battle plan', so to speak. now, whether he feelings for harima are romantic or not anymore, and whether or not she will become the trap love interest(the person who wants to seduce you to prove a point who you shouldn't fall for), is up to the question =p

EDIT: in light of the post below, i find a lot of the above to be invalidated. either she's calmer because she thinks she's in control now, or she has lost whatever gave her butterflies in her stomach over harima.


adam e: so far, my analysis of the chapter from hearsay and seeing various pictures was pretty accurate.

"As Swampstorm mentioned, making yourself look like an idiot involves an audience viewing you as an idiot. In this case, the audience is really only Eri."

that's right, and i don't think harima likes looking like an idiot no matter who the person is. that's what having pride means. i'm not trying to say eri is a nobody to him, however--quite the opposite, losing respect from her does mean something to him. as to what yakumo said, harima's feelings on the subject start from denial, yes, but they transform into pride in being such a stud muffin, and then are shot down. that's the primary source of harima's discomfort--although i repeat, i do not disagree that another source may be that he realizes he has lost something he took for granted. if you predict a shift will probably happen, or has happened, in harima's feelings, i agree.

on the slave-master thing, yakumo does things for harima because she wants harima to be happy, not because she is being dominated by harima. that's the difference between an ideal japanese woman and a slave: the ideal japanese woman does things because she wants to do them out of a deep understanding and care for her love interest. there's nothing in the manga that has EVER shown yakumo doing something for harima that was against her will, except for giving up her own chances of love because she thinks herself unsuitable. unfortunately this difference has no meaning in function, and so it gives off an appearance of yakumo being submissive to harima's will(harima has never willed yakumo to do anything--he has merely requested).

there is one functional difference: if a man proposed something to his love interest(a traditional japanese woman) that she did not want to do or if the proposal could be considered abusive, she would have the cultural right to resist. that's not true of a slave. servant-master is probably the perfect fit.

you can't say harima doesn't do what yakumo wants in a romantic relationship, because harima doesn't even know she has feelings for him and has realized no feelings for her himself. it sort of runs parallel to harima's relationship to tenma--harima would give up his manga for tenma, but she doesn't reciprocate because the romantic feelings aren't there. for both relationships, in the current state they had might as well be servant-master =p

i do agree that the traditional japanese idea of the relationship between a husband and wife has the effort being put into the relationship far more on the wife's side than the husband's--and therefore it is much closer to a servant-master relationship than what we are used to in modern times.

i don't see eri's thinking =/ i see the apricot comment, but that could contain a world of meanings. unless KJ's comment in the last panel refer to her desires.

[Marsala]

Townsocks accidentally left out Eri's thought on the right side of the last page's bottom left panel: "Hmm... I wonder why I was so jittery up until yesterday..."

[wontaek]

For most of the recorded history, human society has been dominated by males, thus so called ideal husband-wife relationship can be viewed as disguised master-slave relation. In School Rumble, Yakumo somewhat reminds people of the old streotype, being so willing to sacrifice herself for sake of others. Eri represented the other spectrum, which is that of female who commands both male and female; the modern feminist-like type. Now, I know that feminist will skin me alive with this over-generalization, but these images are what probably is in most of conservative Asian males. Using this viewpoint, it is understandable why if you look at worldwide popularity of the female characters, Eri who is closer to modern people would have lead over the old fashioned Yakumo, while Yakumo might hold slim lead in Japan.

Many hints were dropped in ch.217 to indicate that Harima is having a mental crisis, and the various devices points to him developing affection for Eri; If this isn't happening, then Kobayashi Jin is deviating from established manga formula, which he has already shown to be capable of. I really think Eri feels less need of Harima's attention while Harima begins to want Eri's attention, and this falls well within classic School Rumble formula of mistiming and twisted circumstances.

Finally, Eri's last statement usually indicates change of mood of the manga. I think it is likely we will move away from all the angst in previous chapters back into light hearted comedy.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Many hints were dropped in ch.217 to indicate that Harima is having a mental crisis, and the various devices points to him developing affection for Eri; If this isn't happening, then Kobayashi Jin is deviating from established manga formula, which he has already shown to be capable of. I really think Eri feels less need of Harima's attention while Harima begins to want Eri's attention, and this falls well within classic School Rumble formula of mistiming and twisted circumstances.

So either Harima will begin to seek after Eri just as she seems to have moved away from him as is the usual cliche... or it's a lampooning of the usual cliche, where instead of being too late to pursue Eri, Harima tried to reject her but was too late and had his rejection rejected.

[wtflux]

i've edited my previous post a lot. =/

thanks for the tip, marsala.

i get the feeling that KJ is writing from experience(as i usually do when I read school rumble) and trying to tell the audience a lesson.

"why did i feel so jittery" seems like it would refer to eri losing interest and/or concern, and therefore no longer being nervous/stressed because of the harima issue.

the angst shouldnt end until harima's situation is resolved--he just crashed from a high point, thinking he was a chick magnet so to speak, to feeling as if nobody loves him. i have a feeling the next chapter will be about yakumo and harima--yakumo realized she made a mistake in 217(or so i would infer from the scenes where she heard the boys talking about harima and "moteki"), and will probably comfort harima(or discuss the situation with eri) next chapter, unless KJ decides to focus on what happens with eri and harima after the... confrontation.

then again, maybe KJ will make a nothing-happens comedy chapter to break the angst pattern.

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by wtflux

Now tougou says he knew about it beforehand? whatever.

Tougou doesn't say anything about knowing about it beforehand, and we know he knew nothing about it beforehand because Eri acted against the script.

Originally Posted by wtflux

that's right, and i don't think harima likes looking like an idiot no matter who the person is.

Harima has acted like a moron in front of many people, and, as of Chapter 217, only Tenma and Eri have been able to provoke such serious reactions from him.

Originally Posted by wtflux

that's what having pride means. i'm not trying to say eri is a nobody to him, however--quite the opposite, losing respect from her does mean something to him. as to what yakumo said, harima's feelings on the subject start from denial, yes, but they transform into pride in being such a stud muffin, and then are shot down.

Where did this apparent fierce pride for being a player come from? Why did Harima develop it in the first place? Harima does not pride his abilities to be a stud before this chapter, so being shot down like Eri did should not be bothering him so much.

Originally Posted by wtflux

that's the primary source of harima's discomfort--although i repeat, i do not disagree that another source may be that he realizes he has lost something he took for granted. if you predict a shift will probably happen, or has happened, in harima's feelings, i agree.

Is it really the reason he's so uncomfortable? I'm very suspicious of Harima's feelings towards Eri after this chapter, and having something he showed no prior signs of priding himself in be crushed should not be the reason he's so upset.

Originally Posted by wtflux

on the slave-master thing, yakumo does things for harima because she wants harima to be happy, not because she is being dominated by harima. that's the difference between an ideal japanese woman and a slave: the ideal japanese woman does things because she wants to do them out of a deep understanding and care for her love interest. there's nothing in the manga that has EVER shown yakumo doing something for harima that was against her will, except for giving up her own chances of love because she thinks herself unsuitable. unfortunately this difference has no meaning in function, and is pretty much merely philosophical.

The best slaves are those who want to please their masters of their own free will.

Originally Posted by wtflux

you can't say harima doesn't do what yakumo wants in a romantic relationship, because harima doesn't even know she has feelings for him and has realized no feelings for her himself.

I'm talking about Harima making no strides to go out of his way and show his appreciation to Yakumo for helping him out. Harima doesn't need to nor want to have a romantic relationship with Yakumo in order for this to classify him as someone who does nothing for her.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by wtflux

the angst shouldnt end until harima's situation is resolved--he just crashed from a high point, thinking he was a chick magnet so to speak, to feeling as if nobody loves him. i have a feeling the next chapter will be about yakumo and harima--yakumo realized she made a mistake in 217(or so i would infer from the scenes where she heard the boys talking about harima and "moteki"), and will probably comfort harima(or discuss the situation with eri) next chapter, unless KJ decides to focus on what happens with eri and harima after the... confrontation.

Yeah, that does seem like the most logical follow-up to this chapter. Of course, often the least logical thing is what happens - Eri not really tearing the manga came out of nowhere, and only a very complicated theory involving Eri pulling off a feat of prestidigitation and conspiring to hide the real manga with Tougou for a couple of days for some contrived reason can explain it.

Other general observations:

- It seems that Harima's manga is indeed still based on himself and Tenma. I wonder how faithfully Tenma reproduced it?

- I hope that nobody still wants to deny that Yakumo has feelings for Harima.

- Tougou continues to be one of KJ's best characters, due to his total, glorious insanity.

[Freeter]

Originally Posted by Marsala

- It seems that Harima's manga is indeed still based on himself and Tenma. I wonder how faithfully Tenma reproduced it?

She probably improvised like Harima and drew Karasuma in his place

[biomy]

all tougou needs is a pink gi and the need to get revenge for his father's death at the hands of a muay thai fighter

yatta ze oyajiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

i'm not exactly sure why people are arguing whether or not harima looking like a fool needs an audience, because that seems really irrelevant

i'm not arguing against the surrealism of the literature of itself, i'm questioning the readers' behaviors due to my pragmatism

i like wtflux's posts nonetheless

when are we gonna start pulling out all the latent psychoanalytical stuff like anima and whatever jung and freud came up with

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by biomy

when are we gonna start pulling out all the latent psychoanalytical stuff like anima and whatever jung and freud came up with

I thought it was so obvious that Harima having problems with Eri loving him being due to experiencing the sensation of the Uncanny causing cognitive dissonance within him that I didn't even bother to mention it.

Sorry about that.

[biomy]

Originally Posted by Adam E

I thought it was so obvious that Harima having problems with Eri loving him being due to experiencing the sensation of the Uncanny causing cognitive dissonance within him that I didn't even bother to mention it.

Sorry about that.

hooray, apology expected

I MEAN ACCEPTED

[wtflux]

adam e:
i edited my post and some of the quotes you responded to have changed, but i'll respond to you anyways.

it's not clear whether or not we are arguing about yakumo as a traditional japanese woman or the idea of a traditional japanese woman itself, so i'll continue on the assumption that it is the latter in the following paragraph.

yeah, the best slave does do things of its own will. but, no slave can contradict their master's will. of course you could say that a men's culture fantasy would be a woman who literally does not contradict anything the man tells her to do. however, if you want to get into the details of the japanese traditional lady, just as in western society(not anymore, really) the traditional lady would, for the most part, be a housewife and not meddle in economic/business/family political affairs. but she would possess a good degree of autonomy and authority around the home, and by no means had to cave in to her husband's every wish and desire. as i said in my previous post after editing, such a woman is much more like a willing servant.

i'm no expert on this, but from what i understand the idea is that if you actually think of her and treat her like a servant, then the relationship becomes abusive and immoral. it's a deep understanding, caring for your well being, and desire to please you(different from obedience--although that may be a value in japanese culture to, i confess that i am not an expert) that are valued, and should not be taken for granted. i do not believe the traditional japanese woman would feel obligated to be subservient to an abusive, unloving husband--that becomes stupidity, after all, a violation of the ideal it's kind of paradoxical, because she is only your servant if she knows you won't treat her like your servant.

back to yakumo, you might say, "but yakumo is a living violation of that rule!" the difference is that she is not in a relationship with harima and she realizes that. however, she has faith that if harima were in a relationship with a girl, he would act appropriately(if she didnt, she wouldnt try to set him up with eri and, most of all, her sister).

as the relationship between harima and yakumo hasn't progressed beyond friendship, it has some ironing out to be done if it's going to become a romance. as you said, harima has been using yakumo and returns little more than a sincere "thank you" as reciprocation. that's a potential mental conflict that could arise within harima if he ever notices yakumo's feelings, because he has been doing it without noticing it(or thinking too much of it, anyways--he knows not what he does, much like tenma). he thinks yakumo has been helping him with the manga for reasons other than affection(ex. she is simply a nice girl, maybe with an interest in doing manga).

we may be seeing such a conflict soon, because the setup at the end of 217 is perfect for him to realize that yakumo has affection for him. after an emotional let down like what happened with Eri and Tenma, the first question that should come to his mind(who knows if it will, he may focus on his mistake with Eri instead) is: so who DOES like me? this is especially likely since yakumo has not contacted harima since she learned that her info leak lead to a misunderstanding.

anyways, if we are contesting whether or not the relationship between yakumo and harima SHOULD happen based on the nature of their relationship, the current state of their relationship is very much like a self-positioned servant and a... friend who requests favors often(harima never commands yakumo, only asks), but that doesn't say what their relationship would be like if it were openly romantic. harima isn't a mean guy =/ if you switched harima with imadori, then yakumo might be in trouble =p

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by wtflux

in other words, harima is probably sad both because:
1. he made himself look foolish at a high point
2. he thinks he ruined whatever he had with eri(i.e. misunderstood interest for head-over-heels love).

Neither should be a concern for Harima if Tenma is his primary focus. If he went in with the intention of rejecting Eri, then he also went in with the intention of ruining whatever interest she had in him. Hasn't he succeeded?

Originally Posted by wtflux

"From an immature and selfish standpoint, love may seem like a magical place where a magical person comes along and magically fixes all of our problems for us. A person thinking along these lines isn't looking for a relationship - they're looking for a tool to solve their inner problems for them (which is something that every person can only resolve on their own). Once the thrill of acquisition wears off, such people start taking their relationships for granted.

We love people for what we do for them, not for what they do for us."

this is all very good, and true if you ask me(except for the last part--i love someone because of the way they are and, admittedly, the way they look--unless you meant something more abstract), but unfortunately we are reading KJ's manga, not yours. he can do what he wants with the characters and relationships, without paying attention to reality.

The comment that you are replying to here was not made with respect to the manga. It was made in response to wontaek's comment that every male wants a female who is willing to sacrifice herself for him. You have taken my point out of context.

Originally Posted by wtflux

either way, the relationship between harima and yakumo isn't slave and master anyways--it's a normal relationship, but yakumo happens to be very nice, intelligent, and considerate of/caring for harima. the idea of a "yamato nadeshiko" that i described in my previous post is not 'a doll that lets you do her,' it's a personification of ideals of womanliness.

If you refer back to the context of the post, we're not directly talking about Yakumo - we're talking about a relationship in which one person has the expectation that their partner will readily make sacrifices for them.

Just who gets to decide these so called "ideals of womanliness"? It's remarkably convenient to generalize women as being the mysterious, selfless companions of men. If she's mysterious, you need not bother to try to understand her needs, and if she's selfless, you can expect her to put up with anything. Just as masculine ideals are things that every man must decide for himself, feminine ideals are things that every woman must decide for themselves. You can't impose that sort of thing on other people.

Originally Posted by wtflux

wontaek, i have to agree with most of your wife's analysis so far =p i don't think KJ looks down on tenma though(she may be stupid but she has a big heart and an endless well of positivity(unless she realizes she has done something bad); that's what i love about her, it's usually not someone's fault if they're stupid anyways), and i definitely don't think he observed yakumo from afar.

It looks like you disagree with about two-thirds of the analysis, then.

Originally Posted by wtflux

now even i am curious about whether eri's feelings have changed or were as serious as KJ made them out to be in the past =/ which is bad. seems like he's just making it up on the fly, the scene in which eri ripped up the manga looked like it had everyone fooled. now tougou says he knew about it beforehand? whatever.

It still makes sense. Eri didn't know what Harima's choice would be, going in to the scene. As such, she couldn't have planned to tear the manga ahead of time. In addition, if Eri had insisted on keeping Harima's manga safe before the scene, then everyone would no doubt be surprised to see her rip it.

In the end of Ch.215, Akira brings up Eri's choice between friends and Harima again, mentioning how Eri had given them both up to become a devil girl. This line fits, as well - despite Eri's efforts to protect the manga, she has still made herself look like a villain, to drive both of them away.

This fits in with what we've seen of Eri in the past, too - she always looks out for the people who are closest to her, but she always refuses to take credit for it. Refer back to the baseball incident in S1 Ep. 5, the manner in which Eri gives Harima her sewing gift in S1 Ep.24, the manner in which Eri gives Akira confidence in S2 Ep.4, and the way that Eri helps Harima out with his bill in S2 Ep.13 for a few examples of similar behavior.

Originally Posted by wtflux

eri really views love as a battlefield. i'd say it's true that she only tore up a fake paper because she didn't want harima bugging her about it(or maybe even precisely BECAUSE she didn't know how important it was to him).

In Ch.214, Eri notes that Akira mentioned how important that stack of papers was to Harima - she just doesn't know what it is.

Originally Posted by wontaek

Yakumo somewhat reminds people of the old streotype, being so willing to sacrifice herself for sake of others. Eri represented the other spectrum, which is that of female who commands both male and female; the modern feminist-like type.

Your need to classify things seems to be leading you astray.

Remember Ch.149-152? Eri often tends to sacrifice her own needs for the people that she cares about. Willpower and passion are gender neutral qualities - they're qualities that any strong person has, male or female. A woman can still have a personality and dreams of her own while being none the less feminine for it.

Originally Posted by wontaek

For most of the recorded history, human society has been dominated by males, thus so called ideal husband-wife relationship can be viewed as disguised master-slave relation.

To be accurate, authorship has traditionally been dominated by males, so from a subject-object perspective, males are portrayed as the subject, and females as the object. As a result, while there are well established guidelines on what it is to be feminine from the male standpoint, masculinity has only defined in reaction to femininity (ie. that which is not female). The "master" has the power to bestow whatever identity he wants on his "slave", but it comes at the cost of his own identity. Even in a society dominated by males, the most advantageous husband-wife relationship is still one in which both validate each other. The fact that the master-slave relationship was originally the norm is more of a tactical oversight on our part.

Originally Posted by wontaek

Using this viewpoint, it is understandable why if you look at worldwide popularity of the female characters, Eri who is closer to modern people would have lead over the old fashioned Yakumo, while Yakumo might hold slim lead in Japan.

Which is incorrect, given that in the last Japanese Saimoe, Korean Saimoe, and the recent manga Saimoe, Eri has consistantly outperformed Yakumo by a fairly large margin. The last manga popularity poll took place during the basketball arc, which is the one story arc from which Eri is absent, and the results of that are over two years old.

Besides, tsundere was all the rage, last I checked. That's hardly a submissive female ideal.

I don't think that Yakumo's friendship/interest/maternal instinct/whatever you want to call it is really relevant until she decides that she wants a relationship with Harima. Then again, most people are too busy playing matchmaker to notice.

Originally Posted by wtflux

"why did i feel so jittery" seems like it would refer to eri losing interest and/or concern, and therefore no longer being nervous/stressed because of the harima issue.

It probably does, but it reminds me of something else as well.

In Ch.208, when Eri has a falling out with Tenma, she uses those same words when she thinks of Tenma: "Why do I feel so jittery?" That line represents the start of the conflict that Akira summarizes in Ch.213 - does Eri give up on Harima while risking her friendship of Tenma, or does she go after Harima? While I haven't checked the originals to see if the same phrase is used in both chapters, this could potentially be a reference to that choice that Eri was divided over, before. If someone can check this one out, please do so - I'm curious to know if it is.

Originally Posted by biomy

i'm not arguing against the surrealism of the literature of itself, i'm questioning the readers' behaviors due to my pragmatism

You've been questioning the readers' behavior for quite some time now. Is it really pragmatic to keep trying, when your efforts have been consistantly shown to be futile?

za warudo.

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by wtflux

adam e:
i edited my post and some of the quotes you responded to have changed, but i'll respond to you anyways.

It doesn't matter. Only one of the quotes I responded to changed, and my answer to it would have been the same, anyways. If you need to change your posts so often, try and do it before you post it for the rest of the world to see. I'm not sure how many times you've edited this post I'm responding to right now, but you shouldn't need to edit more than once or twice.

Originally Posted by wtflux

it's not clear whether or not we are arguing about yakumo as a traditional japanese woman or the idea of a traditional japanese woman itself, so i'll continue on the assumption that it is the latter in the following paragraph.

I'm not arguing for either of these. I'm just arguing that the relationship between Yakumo and Harima is one between a slave and a master, or an imbalanced relationship.

Originally Posted by wtflux

yeah, the best slave does do things of its own will. but, no slave can contradict their master's will. of course you could say that a men's culture fantasy would be a woman who literally does not contradict anything he tells the woman to do. however, if you want to get into the details of the japanese traditional lady, just as in western society(not anymore, really) the traditional lady would, for the most part, be a housewife and not meddle in economic/business/family political affairs. but she would possess a good degree of autonomy and authority around the home, and by no means had to cave in to her husband's every wish and desire. as i said in my previous post after editing, such a woman is much more like a willing servant.

Servant, slave, it doesn't really matter what you call it. A servant is basically a glorified slave, and, either way, the relationship between them is unequal.

Originally Posted by wtflux

we may be seeing such a conflict soon, because the setup at the end of 217 is perfect for him to realize that yakumo has affection for him. after an emotional let down like what happened with Eri and Tenma, the first question that should come to his mind(who knows if it will, he may focus on his mistake with Eri instead) is: so who DOES like me? this is especially likely since yakumo has not contacted harima since she learned that her info leak lead to a misunderstanding.

It's too perfectly set up for Yakumo to cash in right now. It would be ridiculous for Yakumo to really start showing an interest in Harima around Chapter 216 (after Eri clearly did over a hundred chapters earlier), after crying a little in Chapter 215 (which Eri already did three chapters earlier), "give up" on him in Chapter 216 (which Eri already did a few times), then basically cause Eri to "lose" interest in Harima in Chapter 217, then end up with Harima.

Originally Posted by wtflux

anyways, if we are contesting whether or not the relationship between yakumo and harima SHOULD happen based on the nature of their relationship, the current state of their relationship is very much like a self-positioned servant and a... friend who requests favors often(harima never commands yakumo, only asks), but that doesn't say what their relationship would be like if it were openly romantic. harima isn't a mean guy =/ if it were imadori i'd be worried for yakumo =p

Talking about should it happen, I think it shouldn't happen simply because I think their scenes together are dull. I wouldn't even bother to factor in the nature of their relationship. There's more to why I think it shouldn't happen, but these conversations tend to just digress into flame wars.

[wtflux]

"Neither should be a concern for Harima if Tenma is his primary focus. If he went in with the intention of rejecting Eri, then he also went in with the intention of ruining whatever interest she had in him. Hasn't he succeeded?"

to make it simple, i'll state that whether he succeeded or not(his real goal was to make himself feel superior to eri), he is depressed because he thought he was a big shot and it turned out he wasnt. along with reason number 2 in the post you quoted, maybe.

"The comment that you are replying to here was not made with respect to the manga. It was made in response to wontaek's comment that every male wants a female who is willing to sacrifice herself for him. You have taken my point out of context."

my bad, i thought you were responding to something i said.

"It looks like you disagree with about two-thirds of the analysis, then."

yeah, i realized that after i read over my post, but i was too busy editing other points of my post to care about the statistic i used. =/ haha.

"It still makes sense. Eri didn't know what Harima's choice would be, going in to the scene. As such, she couldn't have planned to tear the manga ahead of time. In addition, if Eri had insisted on keeping Harima's manga safe before the scene, then everyone would no doubt be surprised to see her rip it."

yeah, i wasn't trying to deny that the explanation makes sense, but that the portrayal of the ripping scene is misleading(akira even went "Ah!") if they knew those weren't the real manga papers. if KJ had this premeditated it would seem to me that he'd portray the characters reactions as if they had already known that nothing important was actually happening, especially akira and tougou. basically, in good writing, you should always be able to predict things like that(or at least determine that no conclusion can be made) if you are an astute reader or observer, either through detail given or a lack of detail, and i feel that the reactions as they were portrayed in that chapter fly in the face of that principle.

maybe i just wasn't being astute, and my interpretation is colored by my assumptions on what the expressions on the faces of tougou and akira meant.


EDIT:
adam:
apologies about the edits, but i tend to think i am done with a post and then realize later that there are many mistakes in it. it's a psychological problem of mine.

"the relationship between them is unequal."

as it is, i do not disagree.
i don't agree that someone who acts in a manner similar to a servant out of good will towards someone is a slave(unless that good will becomes unconditional), but i believe this is getting somewhat off topic so i'll leave it at that.

It's too perfectly set up for Yakumo to cash in right now. It would be ridiculous for Yakumo to really start showing an interest in Harima around Chapter 216 (after Eri clearly did over a hundred chapters earlier), after crying a little in Chapter 215 (which Eri already did three chapters earlier), "give up" on him in Chapter 216 (which Eri already did a few times), then basically cause Eri to "lose" interest in Harima in Chapter 217, then end up with Harima.

well, i didn't mean that it would progress that far immediately @_@ i meant that it's likely KJ will focus either on harima's reaction to eri or yakumo seeking out and interacting with harima(since she discovered she messed up in 217, probably, and hasnt talked to harima yet). and, if the latter is the case, harima may realize she has affection for him(being the only other girl he interacts with on a frequent basis). but if eri already did those things two chapters ago, i don't think it's ridiculous for yakumo's actions to mimic eri's and end up at a different result. however, simply because it is school rumble, i doubt they will end up in a relationship within the next few chapters.

about eri being a hundred chapters earlier than yakumo, the first time i began believing yakumo had feelings for harima was when they had the group picnic and she discovered his fondness for animals. i don't know what chapter that was, but i remember it being in the first anime season. iirc she has blushed many, many times in reaction to harima's actions and words as well(including the aforementioned scene). you can say this wasn't 'proof' if you want, but i think KJ drew those scenes with the knowledge that affection is implied.

i need to stop posting, i write too much and it takes up too much time. i'll try not to edit this post too much

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by wtflux

adam:
apologies about the edits, but i tend to think i am done with a post and then realize later that there are many mistakes in it. it's a psychological problem of mine.

Instead of hitting "Submit Reply," hit "Preview Post" and read through what you've typed up, then modify it there if it's unsatisfactory. It's really easy; I do it all the time.

Originally Posted by wtflux

well, i didn't mean that it would progress that far immediately @_@ i meant that it's likely KJ will focus either on harima's reaction to eri or yakumo seeking out and interacting with harima(since she discovered she messed up in 217, probably, and hasnt talked to harima yet). and, if the latter is the case, harima may realize she has affection for him(being the only other girl he interacts with on a frequent basis). but if eri already did those things two chapters ago, i don't think it's ridiculous for yakumo's actions to mimic them and end up at a different result.

It's ridiculous because Yakumo would have inadvertently sabotaged Eri and Harima's relationship, and would get rewarded for it. This type of turn of events is avoided like the plague in romantic comedies.

Originally Posted by wtflux

about eri being a hundred chapters earlier than yakumo, the first time i began believing yakumo had feelings for harima was when they had the group picnic and she discovered his fondness for animals. i don't know what chapter that was, but i remember it being in the first anime season. iirc she has blushed many, many times in reaction to harima's actions and words as well(including the aforementioned scene). you can say this wasn't 'proof' if you want, but i think KJ drew those scenes with the knowledge that affection is implied.

I mean that Eri explicitly expressed a desire to have pursue a romantic relationship with Harima well over a hundred chapters ago, while Yakumo had not (still hasn't, really).