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mash11 · 2008-06-13, 04:38

Have you heard the saying "you can't fight evil without walking knee deep in it". Lelouch is simply utilizing that standard, it is impossible to protect everything and everyone, so he has taken it upon himself to make so that the ones who died and will die will not do so in vain, the fact that he held the empress hostage I suspect was to prevent an early war between the CHinese and Britannians, he wants it to happen on his own terms. By doing the kidnapping blame will be on him rather than on the coup. I do not find him as evil as everyone is making him out to be.

FireChick · 2008-06-13, 09:24

This may be a bit off-topic, but has anyone noticed that one of his Britannia relatives has the same name as the main character from some epic called 'The Odyssey'?

Dann of Thursday · 2008-06-13, 10:06

Yeah, it's probably just one of those little references. It could be a sign he is much more cunning than he looks, but I seriously doubt it.

Makoto_Must_DIE · 2008-06-13, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Yeah, it's probably just one of those little references. It could be a sign he is much more cunning than he looks, but I seriously doubt it.

I doubt it also unless when it comes to getting out of situations so he can relax and be lazy. There was one episode in R1 where he looked hella relieved when Schinzel took over for him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

There's a big difference between not being able to protect all of your forces and considering 99 percent of the world expendable.

It is true that he is willing to sacrifice for the cause, but he's not his father. Isn't that supposed to be the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

And who points a gun at kid? Come on. I'm getting tired of flipping between supporting Lelouch and hating him. This is why I prefer straight up heroic protagonists. They might not be as interesting but at least I never feel like an asshole for supporting them.

Life isn't black and white. There are a lot of shades of grey. Lelouche illustrates this. He's fighting for a noble cause using underhanded methods and, pretty selfish reasons. He loves his sister & friends and is willing to do ANYTHING for them. For me, that is the appeal of his character and adds depth and layer to it as opposed if he was your run of the mill cliche.

Dann of Thursday · 2008-06-13, 10:33

I was given the same impression. Maybe his sister the first princess is more cunning, but I doubt they can beat Schneizal or Lelouch.

DarkLordOfkichiku · 2008-06-13, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Yeah, it's probably just one of those little references. It could be a sign he is much more cunning than he looks, but I seriously doubt it.

Maybe it's going to be revealed that he was the mastermind all the time

Nah, rather unlikely

. Here it just seems like his name implies that he's the total opposite of his namesake...

Dann of Thursday · 2008-06-13, 10:37

Yeah, I think they may be going for irony there.

DarkLordOfkichiku · 2008-06-13, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Yeah, I think they may be going for irony there.

Yeah. Maybe the emperor picked that name for him in the hope that he'd be as sly and cunning as Odysseus, but instead this talent appeared in Lelouch and Schneizel...

Astrana · 2008-06-13, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynastya

War is like a game of chess: the general/commander is the king, the troops under his command are the pawns, bishops, rooks, knights.

Even during World War II when the allies planned for the invasion of Normandy, Patton and Eisenhower and all those other leaders knew that to invade Normandy would be very difficult and that during the invasion most of their troops would die and yet they sent the soldiers anyway. Because they know and understand that in war, to achieve victory sacrifices are necessary even if those sacrifices are costly and horrifying.

agreed...in a war doesnt matter how you play, clean or dirty. You win you live, you lose you die. so called "dirty" play are usually the more strategic side...

Makoto_Must_DIE · 2008-06-13, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrana

agreed...in a war doesnt matter how you play, clean or dirty. You win you live, you lose you die. so called "dirty" play are usually the more strategic side...

'All's fair in love and war...'

DN24 · 2008-06-13, 13:56

Quote:

War is like a game of chess: the general/commander is the king, the troops under his command are the pawns, bishops, rooks, knights.

Even during World War II when the allies planned for the invasion of Normandy, Patton and Eisenhower and all those other leaders knew that to invade Normandy would be very difficult and that during the invasion most of their troops would die and yet they sent the soldiers anyway. Because they know and understand that in war, to achieve victory sacrifices are necessary even if those sacrifices are costly and horrifying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrana

agreed...in a war doesnt matter how you play, clean or dirty. You win you live, you lose you die. so called "dirty" play are usually the more strategic side...

Funny,just a while ago there was an argument on how LL abandoned his men and went to save Nunnalli, people would say how humane he was to not sacrifice an innocent life for the sake of millions others!!
Now when he's prepared to screw up another innocent life people going on about how it doesn't matter to sacrifice one or two people because it is war...

I'm beginning to think that for you guys each and every of LL actions is justified.If the day LL shoot Nunnalli come I won't be suprised to see people come up with how annoying she was to defend him....

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-06-13, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DN24

Funny,just a while ago there was an argument on how LL abandoned his men and went to save Nunnalli, people would say how humane he was to not sacrifice an innocent life for the sake of millions others!!
Now when he's prepared to screw up another innocent life people going on about how it doesn't matter to sacrifice one or two people because it is war...

Those are two different groups of people. What, you think we are a hive-mind or something?

DN24 · 2008-06-13, 14:32

Well,I didn't remember any Lelouch supporters object the 1st point and I'm fine with it too (I would choose my love over the world any day).But now everybody seem to think it's ok no matter what may happen to Tianzi.

Quote:

Those are two different groups of people. What, you think we are a hive-mind or something?

There maybe 2 different groups but they can compromise with each other and forget their own ideas as long as it benefit their beloved LL..

Dann of Thursday · 2008-06-13, 14:35

I think we're all convinced that Lelouch has no intention of hurting her and I see no reason to think that he would.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-06-13, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DN24

Well,I didn't remember any Lelouch supporters object the 1st point and I'm fine with it too (I would choose my love over the world any day).But now everybody seem to think it's ok no matter what may happen to Tianzi.

No one is saying that. What they are saying is that what is CURRENTLY happening is still excusable, pending the outcome.

You might claim there is no legitimate reason for pointing a gun at a child, but in reality there is a time and place for absolutely everything.

Just as an example, what if the gun isn't even loaded?

Not saying it isn't loaded as a fact, but I am just giving an example of how the current situation is sufficiently confusing and ambiguous enough for Lulu to still act within character.

If Lulu actually hurt a defenseless child, then we can talk. Until then, everything else is fine. As for the "mental stress" Lulu was causing, keep in mind Lee just butchered a room full of guards and the Empress wasn't phased by it. If that didn't stress her out, a gun wouldn't do much more.

Astrana · 2008-06-13, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DN24

Funny,just a while ago there was an argument on how LL abandoned his men and went to save Nunnalli, people would say how humane he was to not sacrifice an innocent life for the sake of millions others!!
Now when he's prepared to screw up another innocent life people going on about how it doesn't matter to sacrifice one or two people because it is war...

I'm beginning to think that for you guys each and every of LL actions is justified.If the day LL shoot Nunnalli come I won't be suprised to see people come up with how annoying she was to defend him....

You forgot Lelouch's motive to destroy Britania. It's all for Nannuli.
So yes, he will sacrifice millions of lives for Nunnalli, and he will screw up anyone (except Nunnalli and C.C, maybe Kallen) to achieve his goal..

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2008-06-13, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrana

You forgot Lelouch's motive to destroy Britania. It's all for Nannuli.
So yes, he will sacrifice millions of lives for Nunnalli, and he will screw up anyone (except Nunnalli and C.C, maybe Kallen) to achieve his goal..

The list of people Lulu isn't willing to sacrifice is much longer than he would admit. C.C. made it very clear from her observations, that Lulu is just lying to himself.

It's like how Dann keeps trying to deny he prefer the C.C.XLulu pairing by repeatedly making posts talking about how the pairing is impossible, even when everyone is getting sick of it.

Aquaman OS · 2008-06-13, 17:24

The list of people Lelouch isn't willing to sacrifice is like 7 people. Nunnally, Kallen, Milly, Shirley, Rivals, Suzaku (maybe, their relationship has changed lately though)and apparantly Nina. C.C. is complicated since she's much more durable than anyone else so he might be willing to sacrifice her on the likely chance she'd survive. A few of the Black Knights he might feel bad about. Rolo he already is planning to sacrifice for any reason and that's yet to change. That's a minor improvement over only Nunnally but still shows Lelouch to be a rather self centered person.

It is possible to be selfish about others. Or maybe I'm just a very odd person and can't relate to this stuff. ( I'm willing to put myself out for people I barely know when I don't have to and have done so in the past.)

Silver Soul · 2008-06-13, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If Lulu actually hurt a defenseless child, then we can talk. Until then, everything else is fine. As for the "mental stress" Lulu was causing, keep in mind Lee just butchered a room full of guards and the Empress wasn't phased by it. If that didn't stress her out, a gun wouldn't do much more.

What if he were to geass her to bend her will, could that be any better by using her to get what he wants like how Suzaku used Nunally?

Dann of Thursday · 2008-06-13, 21:38

I don't think he'd Geass her to his will. With a parasite like that eunuch I could understand, but a little girl like her would be odd for him.

2008-06-13, 10:06	Link #1103
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	Yeah, it's probably just one of those little references. It could be a sign he is much more cunning than he looks, but I seriously doubt it. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-06-13, 10:33	Link #1105
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I was given the same impression. Maybe his sister the first princess is more cunning, but I doubt they can beat Schneizal or Lelouch. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-06-13, 10:37	Link #1107
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	Yeah, I think they may be going for irony there. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-06-13, 14:35	Link #1114
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I think we're all convinced that Lelouch has no intention of hurting her and I see no reason to think that he would. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-06-13, 21:38	Link #1120
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I don't think he'd Geass her to his will. With a parasite like that eunuch I could understand, but a little girl like her would be odd for him. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2008-06-13, 04:38	Link #1101
mash11 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canada	Have you heard the saying "you can't fight evil without walking knee deep in it". Lelouch is simply utilizing that standard, it is impossible to protect everything and everyone, so he has taken it upon himself to make so that the ones who died and will die will not do so in vain, the fact that he held the empress hostage I suspect was to prevent an early war between the CHinese and Britannians, he wants it to happen on his own terms. By doing the kidnapping blame will be on him rather than on the coup. I do not find him as evil as everyone is making him out to be.

2008-06-13, 09:24	Link #1102
FireChick Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006	This may be a bit off-topic, but has anyone noticed that one of his Britannia relatives has the same name as the main character from some epic called 'The Odyssey'?

2008-06-13, 17:24	Link #1118
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	The list of people Lelouch isn't willing to sacrifice is like 7 people. Nunnally, Kallen, Milly, Shirley, Rivals, Suzaku (maybe, their relationship has changed lately though)and apparantly Nina. C.C. is complicated since she's much more durable than anyone else so he might be willing to sacrifice her on the likely chance she'd survive. A few of the Black Knights he might feel bad about. Rolo he already is planning to sacrifice for any reason and that's yet to change. That's a minor improvement over only Nunnally but still shows Lelouch to be a rather self centered person. It is possible to be selfish about others. Or maybe I'm just a very odd person and can't relate to this stuff. ( I'm willing to put myself out for people I barely know when I don't have to and have done so in the past.)