Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The problem with Kyubey's goal is that it's about something that is far off. By Kyubey's own admission to Madoka, it won't be a pressing issue at least until humans start to actively travel the stars.

That's kind of the entire point, though. Assuming the "Kyubey is an alien" thing isn't absolute rubbish, this is basically a Magical Girl interpretation of the Day the Earth Stood Still scenario. Humanity needs to make some harsh sacrifices and get their own crap together before they can even begin to share the same space as the aliens that have evolved before them.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

That is true in every case. It's not accidental. The anime is careful to put the moral weight for the decision squarely upon the individual girl. So the idea that QB is the agent responsible for the girls' decision, who manipulates them into deciding, does not bear the test of the evidence.

Not telling them that their soul will be taken from their bodies, put into an object that collects energy and keeps their now lifeless body preserved as they use their powers, that if they do not remove this energy it will turn them into a monster, that the process of removing that energy requires transferring it into the object of the monsters that were once human girls, and that when they do become monsters themselves their energy release is harvested by Kyubey for questionable reasons is somehow absolving him of being responsible for their decision?

They willingly made a contract with someone who did not tell them the fine print, sure. But he KNEW they wouldn't agree if they knew the true price. Would Sayaka have made the same wish and contracted if she knew then what she knows now? Kyoko? How about Mami? Homura? Madoka?

None of them would. Removing QB from the equation changes everything.

[Mentar]

Spoiler for If you watch Star Driver and haven't seen the last episode, stay away:

I think that someone recently said that Shinbo remarked about ep9 that its script was changed on short notice. Could whoever has said that (I forgot) please give a reference?

Because I think that we found the spot: Star Driver suddenly revealed "Entropy People", aliens from outer space with talking mascots. A bit too much of a coincidence for my taste - I could imagine that someone from the SD script team talked to someone from the Madoka script team, and they decided to alter the story to match it for a bizarre effect.

(Naturally that also means that the whole story spewed by QB is total bullcrap, if you can simply replace that part freely)

[Slick_rick]

I can't see how this show is trying to portray these aliens values in anyway other than in a bad light. We aren't shown all the things saved or gain by QB efforts but the main focus has been on the suffering and tragedy pushed upon these girls. The vast majority of people are, imo, rightfully disgusted by QB and I think that's intended. While the show is very tragic at times I think its not at all cynical about idealism. Kyoko dropped her cynicism, for the most part, and in the end went out in heroic fashion.

I think the show is trying to be more about overcoming naivete about certain things. What Kyouko said to Madoka in this episode I think more lies at the heart of what the show is trying to portray. She told Madoka she shouldn't put her life on the line unless she has to. I think that's fairly good advice. Madoka believed that by becoming a MG she wouldn't be a coward anymore since she was protected by people before and felt she couldn't do anything. I think the show is trying to say that you don't have to go throw herself in dangerous situations to prove your aren't a coward and also it isn't such a bad thing to be just a normal girl/person. I think whether being a MG is such an enviable thing is much more at the center of the deconstruction.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I can't see how this show is trying to portray these aliens values in anyway other than in a bad light. We aren't shown all the things saved or gain by QB efforts but the main focus has been on the suffering and tragedy pushed upon these girls. The vast majority of people are, imo, rightfully disgusted by QB and I think that's intended. While the show is very tragic at times I think its not at all cynical about idealism. Kyoko dropped her cynicism, for the most part, and in the end went out in heroic fashion.

I think the show is trying to be more about overcoming naivete about certain things. What Kyouko said to Madoka in this episode I think more lies at the heart of what the show is trying to portray. She told Madoka she shouldn't put her life on the line unless she has to. I think that's fairly good advice. Madoka believed that by becoming a MG she wouldn't be a coward anymore since she was protected by people before and felt she couldn't do anything. I think the show is trying to say that you don't have to go throw herself in dangerous situations to prove your aren't a coward and also it isn't such a bad thing to be just a normal girl/person. I think whether being a MG is such an enviable thing is much more at the center of the deconstruction.

I think the more appropriate term for Kyubey would be non-human. The show addresses what it means to be human several times. Kyubey's origin was important not because he comes from another planet, but that his very existence or being is inhuman. His existence is at the extreme of inhumanity, even more inhuman than Sayaka and Homura claim to be, and the difference in their characters show.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

That's kind of the entire point, though. Assuming the "Kyubey is an alien" thing isn't absolute rubbish, this is basically a Magical Girl interpretation of the Day the Earth Stood Still scenario. Humanity needs to make some harsh sacrifices and get their own crap together before they can even begin to share the same space as the aliens that have evolved before them.

I fail to see how QB's people are any more advanced than humanity. They are more powerful, yes, but as far as I can tell they are a race of psychopaths. If being more like them is the the result of being more "advanced", they can keep their advancement. We humans will do things our own way.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I fail to see how QB's people are any more advanced than humanity. They are more powerful, yes, but as far as I can tell they are a race of psychopaths. If being more like them is the the result of being more "advanced", they can keep their advancement. We humans will do things our own way.

For the psychotic part; from our point of view, they might appear extremely cynical, heartless, and so on; but to put things into perspective, humans should appear psychotic killers to chickens, pigs, cows, and sheep, for in-qb-ating them just to slaughter them for a greater purpose.

As for the advanced part; I guess you consider us more advanced than the said species, in the same way QBians can be considered more advanced than humans

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

For the psychotic part; from our point of view, they might appear extremely cynical, heartless, and so on; but to put things into perspective, humans should appear psychotic killers to chickens, pigs, cows, and sheep, for in-qb-ating them just to slaughter them for a greater purpose.

As for the advanced part; I guess you consider us more advanced than the said species, in the same way QBians can be considered more advanced than humans

I do not deny the bit about killing chickens. But at least we haven't stopped so low as to ask chickens and cows to kill themselves voluntarily.

We are not that arrogant. But QB's people ARE.

My question to you is this; would YOU kill yourself for QB? Because those who argue from a philosophical point of view is missing the point entirely; the point is QB is not being reasonable at all, and is simply ordering humanity to our deaths because they can. I say if they want us dead, they can do it themselves if they think they can force us. We are not going to kill our own children for them while they watch.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I fail to see how QB's people are any more advanced than humanity. They are more powerful, yes, but as far as I can tell they are a race of psychopaths. If being more like them is the the result of being more "advanced", they can keep their advancement. We humans will do things our own way.

Spoiler for If you're following Star Driver and haven't watched the last ep, stay away:

Again, you guys are chasing a red herring. QB is no alien. The "Entropy People" are from Star Driver, and this is almost certainly the late script change Shinbo was mentioning.

QB is a demon, and he's after the souls of the MGs. Like he was all the time. And with the impending Walpurgisnacht, he's now confident that he'll be able to force Madoka into the long-coveted contract.

[Deconstructor]

Imagine a race so technologically advanced that they have attained the power to grant minor wishes. They could save people from dying, heal inherent disabilities, command lower lifeforms, and even create magical girls (YAY!). However, that race developed too quickly - they lost the ability to feel emotion, and lacked any empathy for other races in the universe. Eventually, their technology started using up the universe's finite quantity of energy. Realizing their own technology served as a catalyst to the universe's destruction, members of the race sought ways to supply the universe with more energy. Eventually, they figure out that lifeforms on planet Earth, called humans, can create energy with their pure emotions. Kyubey is sent to Earth with the job of contracting humans - Kyubey grants any wish they desire. In exchange, Kyubey takes the energy produced from their happiness. But the cycle does not end there. The contractor turns into a Puella Magi, the middle stage between a normal girl and a witch. When the Puella Magi reaches an extreme state of despair and sadness, Kyubey once again harnesses the resultant energy. By granting their wishes and having those wishes completely subverted, Kyubey draws out the maximum amount of energy from human beings. The end result, however, is that the contractor turns into a witch. Humans, lower lifeforms of the universe, are merely food for Kyubey's more advanced race.

I am not ready to throw out the idea that Kyubey is part of a race living far, far away. After all, he said it himself. Kyubey may represent the logical extreme of evolution: A race that has thrown away emotions because they are no longer efficient for development.

[Kanon]

Jesus, Mentar, use spoiler tags! Star Driver's latest episode aired only a few minutes ago.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Jesus, Mentar, use spoiler tags! Star Driver's latest episode aired only a few minutes ago.

Fine, done. I don't really see it as a major spoiler, but you've got a point.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do not deny the bit about killing chickens. But at least we haven't stopped so low as to ask chickens and cows to kill themselves voluntarily.

Heh? really, that sound a fun argument to use against vegans, links? How can the butcher understand if the animal does it voluntarily, rather than conditioned to it?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

We are not that arrogant. But QB's people ARE.

Probably chickens think the same about us

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

My question to you is this; would YOU kill yourself for QB? Because those who argue from a philosophical point of view is missing the point entirely; the point is QB is not being reasonable at all, and is simply ordering humanity to our deaths because they can. I say if they want us dead, they can do it themselves if they think they can force us. We are not going to kill our own children for them while they watch.

I said this before, Mami would be dead if not for QB giving her a second chance, more or less the same is true for Kyouko, while in Sayaka's case, it's her fault that not benefitting for her wish. QB offered a contract, if the other party does not take advantage of it as much as it could, it is childish and pointless to baptize their own failure into manipulation (a theme handled near the end of Faust, if I remember correctly).

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler for Star Driver ep.21:

Again, you guys are chasing a red herring. QB is no alien. The "Entropy People" are from Star Driver, and this is almost certainly the late script change Shinbo was mentioning.

QB is a demon, and he's after the souls of the MGs. Like he was all the time. And with the impending Walpurgisnacht, he's now confident that he'll be able to force Madoka into the long-coveted contract.

My argument would be the same whether QB is an alien, God, the Devil, or just the delusional creation of the adult Makoka from the OP

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Imagine a race so technologically advanced that they have attained the power to grant minor wishes. They could save people from dying, heal inherent disabilities, command lower lifeforms, and even create magical girls (YAY!). However, that race developed too quickly - they lost the ability to feel emotion, and lacked any empathy for other races in the universe. Eventually, their technology started using up the universe's finite quantity of energy. Realizing their own technology served as a catalyst to the universe's destruction, members of the race sought ways to supply the universe with more energy. Eventually, they figure out that lifeforms on planet Earth, called humans, can create energy with their pure emotions. Kyubey is sent to Earth with the job of contracting humans - Kyubey grants any wish they desire. In exchange, Kyubey takes the energy produced from their happiness. But the cycle does not end there. The contractor turns into a Puella Magi, the middle stage between a normal girl and a witch. When the Puella Magi reaches an extreme state of despair and sadness, Kyubey once again harnesses the resultant energy. By granting their wishes and having those wishes completely subverted, Kyubey draws out the maximum amount of energy from human beings. The end result, however, is that the contractor turns into a witch. Humans, lower lifeforms of the universe, are merely food for Kyubey's more advanced race.

I am not ready to throw out the idea that Kyubey is part of a race living far, far away. After all, he said it himself. Kyubey may represent the logical extreme of evolution: A race that has thrown away emotions because they are no longer efficient for development.

Food is allowed to fight back. Even more so, the fact that Magic is something that is beyond QB's understanding. Once the masquerade is removed, humanity would be able to create a magical army stronger than QB's capacity to defeat, and crush their home dimension for their crime against us.

Remember, they are only more advanced technically; we are the ones with magic on our side. As long as we survive as a species long enough, the hunted will become the hunter.

Heh? really, that sound a fun argument to use against vegans, links? How can the butcher understand if the animal does it voluntarily, rather than conditioned to it?

I have yet to see an animal disembowel itself. Animals are killed without their knowledge, because if they KNOW they are about to die, the stress actually toughens the meat. All butchering are done quickly and by surprise, no voluntary process.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fine, done. I don't really see it as a major spoiler, but you've got a point.

Thanks. I know it's not a major spoiler, but a spoiler is still a spoiler

[Solace]

I just saw the screencaps on RC for the latest Star Driver episode. I have to admit there are some interesting coincidences.

[taofd]

I wish people could just stop applying "human" logic to the situation and try to think outside of the box. To understand QB, you MUST think outside the human value system. Imagine if everything that carried inherent value (to you), suddenly didn't. What if QB's race did not care for family. What if QB's race has no sentimental value. What if QB's race has no self-value. QB's race doesn't have emotion, so things such as "gut feeling" or "emotional decision making" simply doesn't apply. Our value system is very directly tied with our emotions, because humans possess the ability to empathise. We feel things are wrong or "evil", because we wouldn't want the same thing done to ourselves. However, QB's race may think of it as, "If it is a necessary sacrifice and I will save many more lives, than it is the logical thing to do."

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Thanks. I know it's not a major spoiler, but a spoiler is still a spoiler

Errm...what are you guys talking about? What script change? Star Driver is by Bones is it not? While this is by SHAFT....

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by taofd

I wish people could just stop applying "human" logic to the situation and try to think outside of the box. To understand QB, you MUST think outside the human value system. Imagine if everything that carried inherent value (to you), suddenly didn't. What if QB's race did not care for family. What if QB's race has no sentimental value. What if QB's race has no self-value. QB's race doesn't have emotion, so things such as "gut feeling" or "emotional decision making" simply doesn't apply. Our value system is very directly tied with our emotions, because humans possess the ability to empathise. We feel things are wrong or "evil", because we wouldn't want the same thing done to ourselves. However, QB's race may think of it as, "If it is a necessary sacrifice and I will save many more lives, than it is the logical thing to do."

It doesn't matter what QB thinks is important, because as soon as they got humans involved, human values automatically enters the equation.

I don't care if QB's people slaughter each other back in their homeland; that's their own decision. But if they want to get humans involved, then human values will get mixed in.

Segregation of cultures only work when they are separated. When QB waltz into our world and tell us to get our children killed, he would have to face the consequences.

In short, if he wants the souls of our children, he would have to take them from our cold dead fingers.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It doesn't matter what QB thinks is important, because as soon as they got humans involved, human values automatically enters the equation.

Often humans are confronted with similar decisions - a logical one vs. an emotional one. Sometimes it makes you wonder what Truman is thinking when he ordered to use of nuclear weapons (atomic bomb) in WWII. Things can be even like that in office politics where one chooses to deceive and ruin another person for a pay off that benefits your family (better pay, better career security).

In the end, the one who takes the ruthless and logical steps are more likely to survive. It does not mean I do not believe good people do not exist. However, good people are not immune to situations that one is confronted with choices that every choice is "evil". In that case, the good person will probably take the choice that he/she thinks will do the least evil...