Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Shadow5YA]

He'll explain everything when he's on his final moments and Shu happens to be there to listen.

Just you wait.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And what's wrong/unrealistic with getting a specially cut suit for your top mecha pilot? Presumably the suit provides some sort of added functionality for combat situations.

In real life, skin-tight body suits are legit parts of certain professions (scuba diver, Olympic-level speed skaters, etc...).

Find me suits that cut into the cleavage and shape the breast perfectly.

Originally Posted by Iron21

Seriously, am I the only one who finds the "fanservice" rather tamed in this show, compared to what you normally get in anime these days?

Not to a point where I have to make a lap about it.

It's just there to me, most of the time, I don't even notice or care. As long as it's not in your face blatant fanservice.

The fan service is quite tame compared to other series but it's just awkward and misplaced sometimes. I much rather a straight fanservice scene than a jiggle or moan during a serious moment. For example, one of the best fan services of the year:

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

What made the apparent NTR so juicy is that we're fresh from Shu deciding that he didn't care about anything except Inori. He looked so pathetic, and desperate when he asked her "Hey, Inori, I can trust you, right?" in the last episode, before transforming into Captain Caveman. It sucked huge for him, because foolish or not, that's all he had left to hold onto. It finally made me feel like there's more to Inori, though, and more importantly, it made me care enough to want to find out what it is.

Yes, that is indeed why it hurt. He really was there because of her. I do agree that it adds depth to her. It makes more sense why we felt she was either head over heels for him or acting like she's thawing her heart. I think the scene with her in the warehouse alone with Funnel while Shu was captured was real Inori while the rest were fake Inori.

Also, I'm getting Holland-from-Eureka-Seven vibes from Gai. He's got his reasons for not ever explaining anything to Shu, but I'm betting his unwillingness to communicate is just going to make things worse in the long run.

That is a good example. I'm just hoping Gai goes out in a good fashion. Nothing beats Nadesico though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Find me suits that cut into the cleavage and shape the breast perfectly.

That's just slight embellishment. It's nothing worth getting worked up over, imo.

The fan service is quite tame compared to other series but it's just awkward and misplaced sometimes. I much rather a straight fanservice scene than a jiggle or moan during a serious moment.

My preference is different. I much prefer fanservice that is seamless with the overarching plot and/or the episode's plot, and that's rarely the case with "straight fanservice", imo. None of the fanservice moments in Guilty Crown made its scenes any less serious than they already were, at least for me (keep in mind that not all of these fanservice moments were in serious scenes to begin with).

Body parts jiggle a little bit in real life, particularly during moments of conflict or fast movement. Also, we're not exactly talking Highschool of the Dead here. As I argued before, the jiggling in this series is in no way unrealistic or excessive.

[JediNight]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I find the fanservice plenty obnoxious and degrading as a female viewer. But that's just me.

Anyways I dropped the series. I realized I don't care for either of the main characters (Shu or Inori) and I don't think I can follow this series just for the lulz. I don't even really care about the action eye candy because while the production values are high, I find the style uninteresting. I won't say its horrible but I guess the show just isn't for me.

For sure it's meant to appeal mostly to a shounen demographic. Actually quite odd considering what Noitamina usually strives for.

Originally Posted by stuopidget

They're just bashing fanservice because there are only so many times you can talk about how "fail" the plot is. There's no complaint for Horizon "fanservice" because

• far less people watch it (if there are full novel translations like Haganai and F/Z, the situation will be so drastically different because City-verse is as complex as Nasuverse).
• the plot is virtually pretty solid; there are very minimal things you can nitpick about and nobody will find the "fanservice" distracting since the plot is a lot harder to understand (due to translation/language barrier).

stuopidget knows I respectfully disagree about Horizon's plot and the fanservice is also quite ridiculous in Horizon. (Not half of which is the chara designs) But that is for another thread


The pacing so far has been fine given that it's going to be 22 episodes. I think people are so used to the single cour shows these days that they forget what pacing for a normal full season show is like.

[Kaoru Chujo]

This thread is definitely not my favorite part of this show, which I am enjoying more than all but 2-3 others this season (Chihayafuru, Kimi to Boku, Ben-Tou). In fact, if this were 2channel, I would be setting up a "refuge" thread for people who are fans of the show, as opposed to those who seem to get no pleasure from the show except for criticizing it.

I'm not going to deny a lot of the criticism, except to say I don't care. There is so much else in the show beyond its awkward plotting. These characters do seem to have character to me. Just because Shu is weak and squeamish and Inori is not a confident Amazon does not mean they are not real characters with which one (I mean I) can identify emotionally. I'm not watching anime for models to imitate, but for characters and relationships to feel.

The plot details may be unconvincing, but the main situations have emotional heft, and the animation, character design, and backgrounds are all quite exciting, it seems to me. There are scenes and sequences in every episode that I find quite enthralling. For instance, Shu trying to get Inori to flee with him, then seeing her go into Gai's room, and being told "sucks to be you." Strong stuff. I don't remember seeing a situation like that in any other anime.

As for the minimal fanservice, I agree that it seems fairly lame, except for Inori, whose character design provides a lot of service on its own. But many other shows have much, much more, so I'm not sure what people are complaining about, except that they came into this expecting another kind of show altogether.

I keep wondering if the main problem is that people came into this thinking it was a conventional mecha/fighting show, when it is something else entirely, at heart. Not that I can put a name to that "something else," lol.

I've only just restarted watching Horizon, which lost my attention early on. Until ep6 I found those characters quite boring and thin. But that show is far more popular on 2channel than this one is: 72,000 posts to 33,000.

[JediNight]

I haven't read the posts about it on 2ch, but from the comments I saw on Yaraon -- the Japanese are divided on the show just like the foreign fans are. Mostly I would say that Horizon has a very rabid fanbase from the novels and dissenters are told they "just don't understand because you haven't read the novels" etc.

The animation quality is definitely one of my enjoyments from this show. Gundam Age has 25% higher budget than Guilty Crown, but arguably they use the budget a lot better here. The quality is simply amazing at times watching the 10bit versions.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This thread is definitely not my favorite part of this show, which I am enjoying more than all but 2-3 others this season (Chihayafuru, Kimi to Boku, Ben-Tou). In fact, if this were 2channel, I would be setting up a "refuge" thread for people who are fans of the show, as opposed to those who seem to get no pleasure from the show except for criticizing it.

This is part of the reason why I think it would be nice if Guilty Crown had a subforum (just to be clear, I'm not explicitly asking for it with this comment).

If Guilty Crown had a subforum, I'm inclined to think that those who just want to criticize it would post mostly (if not exclusively) on episode threads, while a "General Discussion" thread on such a hypothetical Guilty Crown subforum would allow for fans of the show to talk in-depth about it without having such conversation frequently interrupted by criticisms of the show.

With a lone series thread, such neat and tidy discussion divisions are difficult to achieve of course.

The plot details may be unconvincing, but the main situations have emotional heft, and the animation, character design, and backgrounds are all quite exciting, it seems to me. There are scenes and sequences in every episode that I find quite enthralling. For instance, Shu trying to get Inori to flee with him, then seeing her go into Gai's room, and being told "sucks to be you." Strong stuff. I don't remember seeing a situation like that in any other anime.

Great points.

I keep wondering if the main problem is that people came into this thinking it was a conventional mecha/fighting show, when it is something else entirely, at heart. Not that I can put a name to that "something else," lol.

I think some people were expecting something more like Ghost in the Shell, perhaps since this is airing on noitaminA, and also due to a perhaps unwise comment made by the show's Director, IIRC. So some may have expected this anime to be very gritty in its realism. Guilty Crown is not atypically unrealistic for an anime, imo, but it is relatively campy, and I think that some viewers may be finding that hard to adapt to.

But "camp" is not necessarily bad, in my mind. You can have a show that's "camp" but still manages to have emotional heft with enthralling situations and conflicts, imo.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I haven't read the posts about it on 2ch, but from the comments I saw on Yaraon -- the Japanese are divided on the show just like the foreign fans are. Mostly I would say that Horizon has a very rabid fanbase from the novels and dissenters are told they "just don't understand because you haven't read the novels" etc.

The animation quality is definitely one of my enjoyments from this show. Gundam Age has 25% higher budget than Guilty Crown, but arguably they use the budget a lot better here. The quality is simply amazing at times watching the 10bit versions.

Gundam Age is 50 episodes, this is 22, of course it would have a higher budget that would be more stretched out and thus add up to something that just looks slightly above average, but that's neither here nor there. Also I think it's important to note that in order to understand my frustration with this show you need to have experienced a Hiroyuki Yoshino written show at least once. At this point I am pretty convinced that he may be the single worst, most utterly schlocky writer that is still getting work in the anime industry today. Almost any other writer and I wouldn't be completely convinced that he's just going to mangle any potential the show has every single time it dares to think of striking a chord with me.

I wonder if people have any idea just how hard I'm trying to enjoy this show despite it's shortcomings. If people think I enjoy criticizing a show I expected to be one of if not my top fave(s) by this point in the season they could not possibly be more wrong. If anything my posting today has been little more than a stress release to try and see the light and humour in a show I already see as essentially doomed for anything other than flashy animation and fan service 5 episodes in.

Also yes I expected a more "conventional" mecha/political show going in, but by episode 2 I had realized that was not going to happen and chose to switch gears to trying to view it for what it is. The fact that I'm still struggling with it despite my absolute best efforts to get into the groove seems to indicate that in this case there is something wrong with the show and it's writer, not with my approach. It should not by any means be anywhere near this hard for me to be enthused by a show that should be right up my alley...one that I was all kinds of ready to enjoy and thought I'd have plenty to fall back on if their were a few disappointments along the way.

Still I continue to truck along with the absolute lowest possible standards I have perhaps ever mustered for a sci-fi/mecha series and hope to god the show throws me a bone at some point.

[JediNight]

IMHO the biggest annoyance I have with peoples criticisms of shows is they latch onto the wrong issues quite often. Certain elements in shows, even ones meant to be serious, are for artistic flair, to lighten the mood, etc. AKA -- not everything is worth being angry over and writing a dissertation on.

Anime is rarely meant to be high art, I think people forget that sometimes. On the "Michael Bay to Martin Scorsece Scale" this show is about a 4/10 IMHO.

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I keep wondering if the main problem is that people came into this thinking it was a conventional mecha/fighting show, when it is something else entirely, at heart. Not that I can put a name to that "something else," lol.

I didn't want a conventional mecha/fighting show. I wanted something with good characters, a good storyline, and good relationships, especially given the production team. Not a rehash of Eureka Seven's initial episodes with even less likable characters (finally watching that series by the way, and it's not that bad). Or a Makoto Shinkai film.

My main problem is that GC is boring. I wouldn't say it's as boring as Shana III or 5 cm per second, but the anime isn't executing its (really clever) ideas all that well and it's not bad enough for me to laugh at it (say what you will about Persona 4, but it's at least funny in its own ineptitude). GC has money behind it and the visuals are pretty, but they're supposed to enhance the viewing experience, not BE the viewing experience. And unlike Triple_R, I don't think the anime is campy (if it was, I could accept the stuff that happens in this show more easily). Future Diary and Code Geass are campy. That's why I can accept the weirdness in those anime. This art and effort existent in the anime is too good to be campy.

And then there's Shu, who's got almost every negative trait in a main character out there to an astonishingly unrealistic degree. My problems with the character aside, I can't stand the fact that everybody keeps on finding an excuse to hit or embarrass him (Admittedly, I do see some positives in the idea, as several people have pointed out). I don't mind cruelty or dark stuff in a story, but it has to amount to something. A lot of Shu's treatment just seems to be cruelty for the sake of being cruel, especially since a bunch of his cruelty was supposed to be funny, but failed (the boob grab scene anyone?). I also explained why the "reveal" that Inori wasn't that into him didn't work for me, so I won't go into that. I do believe that the cruelty he suffers will amount to something, but when, because it's really bothering me right now?

While I had to delete some posts because they felt like I was forcing my opinion on people, it's not like we're trolling the anime. I don't think I ever said, "Don't watch it", once. I want to like this show. I do. The ideas are clever and there are one or two scenes that I find to be funny or badass, but it just seems like an overbloated mess to me.

Edit: To be fair, I stuck with conversations after I deleted my unnecessary posts. The stuff like Inori's outfit and the fanservice are things I find "funny" about the show, not actual criticisms. Inori's outfit is just ridiculous and some of the slapstick is just so stupid that I laugh at it (seriously, did Ayase wheel herself over to naked Shu while screaming?). I don't want to criticize the show anymore because it's gotten old, so hopefully, this post will make it clear where I stand with the show.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by JediNight

IMHO the biggest annoyance I have with peoples criticisms of shows is they latch onto the wrong issues quite often. Certain elements in shows, even ones meant to be serious, are for artistic flair, to lighten the mood, etc. AKA -- not everything is worth being angry over and writing a dissertation on.

Agreed. I think it's fair to say that Guilty Crown leans more towards "artistic flair" than "gritty realism", but that this alone doesn't make it non-serious. As I alluded to before, it makes it campy (like many an American comic book, to go back to an earlier analogy of mine).

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by JediNight

IMHO the biggest annoyance I have with peoples criticisms of shows is they latch onto the wrong issues quite often. Certain elements in shows, even ones meant to be serious, are for artistic flair, to lighten the mood, etc. AKA -- not everything is worth being angry over and writing a dissertation on.

Anime is rarely meant to be high art, I think people forget that sometimes. On the "Michael Bay to Martin Scorsece Scale" this show is about a 4/10 IMHO.

By all means I invite you to point out the wrong issues that you feel should be receiving a little less critical attention. For me the main struggle is with how they are setting up the cast and how they are handling their development so far. For example Shu as has been pointed out by many is a VERY hard protagonist to cheer for. It's fair to be a little mopey and wishy-washy and uncertain about difficult matters, but he takes it to the absolute extreme and it makes him a somewhat unbelievable character in my eyes. This is a common issue with Yoshino written characters I've found. I believe I've mentioned his penchant for over the topness and the constant feeling that he needs to continually top himself in extremity of portrayal of events in his stories in order to keep the viewers interested as opposed to developing things along a more even and varied tack.

I'm already seeing that here in how he's handling Shu's character. By the episode instead of revealing more about his backstory and showing other sides to his character all they've done is make him progressively more and more mopey, wishy-washy and full of self-loathing. The events that happen almost feel contrived in order to push him further and further down this path and it's when I notice things like this that his whole character sort of falls apart for me a bit.

That's just one example of course. I can offer up more if requested, but I think that should suffice for now as an insight into some of my issues with the shows handling of it's characters.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

This art and effort existent in the anime is too good to be campy.

I don't see what that has to do with how campy a show is. I've read many campy American comic books with extremely nice artwork in them, and obvious effort was shown toward the product as an whole.

Also, Angel Beats! frequently struck me as pretty campy, but I certainly wouldn't question the quality of art and the amount of effort put into that show (both being very high, imo).

Edit: In fairness to you, the cast actually could use a bit more charisma and "fabulousness", not less (and this might make it more entertaining for you). I want it to get more campy, not less, honestly. I will say that perhaps the show is trying too hard to please both the people who would be into GiTS, and also the people who would be into Code Geass, and that's a more difficult trick to pull off than what many might think. At this point, I think it should more decisively go after the Code Geass fanbase, because the sensibilities of this show is just crying out for that. Perhaps Guilty Crown is slightly too ambitious for its own good, similar to Angel Beats! if this is the case.

However, I'm cautiously optimistic about this anime because we have two characters now that truly pique my interest for reasons beyond character design alone - Ayase, and Major Segai. If Gai and Inori get some good fleshing-out, I could see them improving a lot as well. Shu I find compelling at a possible meta level, but I'm going to wait and see how that plays out.

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by JediNight

IMHO the biggest annoyance I have with peoples criticisms of shows is they latch onto the wrong issues quite often. Certain elements in shows, even ones meant to be serious, are for artistic flair, to lighten the mood, etc. AKA -- not everything is worth being angry over and writing a dissertation on.

Anime is rarely meant to be high art, I think people forget that sometimes. On the "Michael Bay to Martin Scorsece Scale" this show is about a 4/10 IMHO.

I don't believe in wrong issues to complain about to be honest. Just because something is meant for something doesn't mean it succeeds at it. And honestly, just because you're complaining about the little issues doesn't mean your argument is invalid. Little issues themselves aren't bad, but they pile up to the point that you can't see the good stuff because the little issues are TOO distracting. For example, something may have a good story and morals, but if everything else is so horrible, then the story and morals get lost.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This thread is definitely not my favorite part of this show, which I am enjoying more than all but 2-3 others this season (Chihayafuru, Kimi to Boku, Ben-Tou). In fact, if this were 2channel, I would be setting up a "refuge" thread for people who are fans of the show, as opposed to those who seem to get no pleasure from the show except for criticizing it.

*Agrees* and with Triple_R too. It'd also be nice not to have to read the posts where people are 'claiming some character or other'...

====

Back to more important issues, we're like 5 episodes into a 22-episode plot-driven series - which pretty much means we're still in the 'exposition' stage - for both plot AND characters. Can't we give the creators TIME to actually lay out where they're going properly?

As for Shu, I don't find him THAT mopey, at least not yet, nor do I find all the 'contrivances' he's been subjected to B&W either. If anything, the context of his friend's betrayal is something I hope Shu remembers - even if it's only taught him that thus far that he can't take people at face value, I think it's important for him to remember that there are usually understandable reasons, even if one cannot say they are 'good'.

Furthermore, episode 5 gave him something to take confidence from, so hopefully he'll start finding his own answers from here.

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see what that has to do with how campy a show is. I've read many campy American comic books with extremely nice artwork in them, and obvious effort was shown toward the product as an whole.

Also, Angel Beats! frequently struck me as pretty campy, but I certainly wouldn't question the quality of art and the amount of effort put into that show (both being very high, imo).

Oh yeah, that was pretty campy (and I like that show). But yeah, I was wrong with that statement, as Code Geass had money behind it too.

Honestly, I don't know what it is about this anime per say, but I can't see it as campy. It just seems like one writer wants to make a serious anime while the other is trying to be campy, hence why I feel it's overbloated. But seriously, can we get comedy that doesn't involve Shu being an absolute loser? Like Tsugumi bum-pressing somebody as an attack? Because I'm starting to realize more and more that I cannot stand how much this anime seems to hate Shu.

Edit: Yeah, I think it's the charisma of the characters that made Code Geass and those other works campy. Tsugumi and Ayase are okay, but the others just don't have any flair (plus Ayase is more serious). The bad guys...seriously, why couldn't Daryl have died in Episode 2? I know I mentioned I sort of liked him before, but upon a second thought, he's a little too over the top. Major Segai? Eh. I'm hoping it gets more campy too, because then I can at least laugh at it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I'm not going to deny a lot of the criticism, except to say I don't care. There is so much else in the show beyond its awkward plotting. These characters do seem to have character to me. Just because Shu is weak and squeamish and Inori is not a confident Amazon does not mean they are not real characters with which one (I mean I) can identify emotionally. I'm not watching anime for models to imitate, but for characters and relationships to feel.

The plot details may be unconvincing, but the main situations have emotional heft, and the animation, character design, and backgrounds are all quite exciting, it seems to me. There are scenes and sequences in every episode that I find quite enthralling. For instance, Shu trying to get Inori to flee with him, then seeing her go into Gai's room, and being told "sucks to be you." Strong stuff. I don't remember seeing a situation like that in any other anime.

I'm somewhere in between this and the more vocal critics. Many of the criticisms are stuff that I would agree with (though I can't really say I mind the fanservice). It's the just that their level of impact seems to be different for me than to the more vocal ones. I can easily just give them a weary sigh and move on for the most part. I agree with you that the characters are what still interest me, but not because I think they're complex. I just think they're "cool" in a way and provide some sort of escapism. You know the kind that makes you write bad fan fics and enter shipping wars...

I guess in a sense, Guilty Crown has become my Guilty Pleasure (hurr)...

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

By all means I invite you to point out the wrong issues that you feel should be receiving a little less critical attention. For me the main struggle is with how they are setting up the cast and how they are handling their development so far. For example Shu as has been pointed out by many is a VERY hard protagonist to cheer for. It's fair to be a little mopey and wishy-washy and uncertain about difficult matters, but he takes it to the absolute extreme and it makes him a somewhat unbelievable character in my eyes. This is a common issue with Yoshino written characters I've found. I believe I've mentioned his penchant for over the topness and the constant feeling that he needs to continually top himself in extremity of portrayal of events in his stories in order to keep the viewers interested as opposed to developing things along a more even and varied tack.

I'm already seeing that here in how he's handling Shu's character. By the episode instead of revealing more about his backstory and showing other sides to his character all they've done is make him progressively more and more mopey, wishy-washy and full of self-loathing. The events that happen almost feel contrived in order to push him further and further down this path and it's when I notice things like this that his whole character sort of falls apart for me a bit.

That's just one example of course. I can offer up more if requested, but I think that should suffice for now as an insight into some of my issues with the shows handling of it's characters.

I agree that he seems mopey, but think about it from his perspective. He's not exactly that bright of a person in ep 1 before he gets involved in all the mess, but after that, he gets involved in terrorist activity just because he wants to do a pretty girl he met a favor.

And even worse, he unwillingly get a power just because he don't want to die and now he's expected to join said terrorist group as if that's his responsibility because he got the power. Is there anything wrong with him being mopey? Or is it because a protagonist always has to look forward toward tomorrow with optimism even if bad luck keep piling up against you and ruin your life? Those kind of typical shounen heroes are even more unreal IMO compared to the mopey one. Being mopey is suposed to be the normal reaction, but how he picks up after getting mopey is the important thing, which we haven't arrived yet due to 2 cour series.

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

The plot details may be unconvincing.....

The plot seems unconvincing mainly because there are tons of questions still left unanswered: Examples are "What's Gai's real agenda here?" and "What happened between Gai and Shuu that made Shuu unable to remeber Gai?"

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by djmaca

The plot seems unconvincing mainly because there are tons of questions still left unanswered: Examples are "What's Gai's real agenda here?" and "What happened between Gai and Shuu that made Shuu unable to remeber Gai?"

Those are things that could be explained later though. That's not exactly something that the first five episodes need to explain.