New Dragon Ball Z Movie

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by GDB

SSJ4 doesn't exist.

In the games it does even if the GT hate is way overboard. Even Akira praised SSJ4 when he saw it. Though a shame he couldn't make SSJG look anywhere as cool as SSJ4, instead he opted for a rehashed Kiao-ken when it could have looked amazing.

The games also gave us cool thing like SSJ3 Brolly, Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Gogeta.

[Marikina]

Originally Posted by GDB

We already got that in Broly's Second Coming. Granted Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell and Broly had gotten a Zenkai, but Gohan got pretty much dominated. There's no need for a contest.

Gohan did manage to stagger Broly with some of his blows, powered out of his submission hold, and then outflown him in the lava flow. And this was a nerfed SSJ2 who's nowhere near as strong as his younger self, who's weaker than the elder SSJ2s.

Goku also defeated Broly when he was rampaging in Hell after movie 11 with just Paikuhan as his back up and with just SSJ2.

[HasuMasu]

I never liked Super Saiyan 4.

I like the red of Super Saiyan God, though everything other than the looks is iffy.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

In the games it does even if the GT hate is way overboard. Even Akira praised SSJ4 when he saw it. Though a shame he couldn't make SSJG look anywhere as cool as SSJ4, instead he opted for a rehashed Kiao-ken when it could have looked amazing.

The games also gave us cool thing like SSJ3 Brolly, Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Gogeta.

Games are as far as canon as you can get.

Originally Posted by Marikina

Gohan did manage to stagger Broly with some of his blows, powered out of his submission hold, and then outflown him in the lava flow. And this was a nerfed SSJ2 who's nowhere near as strong as his younger self, who's weaker than the elder SSJ2s.

Goku also defeated Broly when he was rampaging in Hell after movie 11 with just Paikuhan as his back up and with just SSJ2.

Staggering doesn't really mean much. Vegeta staggered perfect Cell too, but was nowhere near his strength. And we don't know Goku was only SSJ2 at the end of that movie, in fact it's far more likely he was SSJ3. There's no reason he wouldn't have been.

[Marikina]

Originally Posted by GDB

Staggering doesn't really mean much. Vegeta staggered perfect Cell too, but was nowhere near his strength. And we don't know Goku was only SSJ2 at the end of that movie, in fact it's far more likely he was SSJ3. There's no reason he wouldn't have been.

I don't recall Vegeta staggering Cell. He certainly didn't overpower him in his own hold nor did he outflew him.

There was no way Goku could've used SSJ3 at the end of movie 11. He tells Janenba in the following movie that he and Buu are the only opponents to have ever forced him to use that form. Plus SSJ3 had barely debuted in either the anime or the manga by the time of movie 11's conception.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Marikina

I don't recall Vegeta staggering Cell. He certainly didn't overpower him in his own hold nor did he outflew him.

At the end of the fight, when he made Cell stagger so Gohan could finish it, as well as when he used Final Flash.

There was no way Goku could've used SSJ3 at the end of movie 11. He tells Janenba in the following movie that he and Buu are the only opponents to have ever forced him to use that form. Plus SSJ3 had barely debuted in either the anime or the manga by the time of movie 11's conception.

Outside of the Broly movies, none of the movies even pretended to be canon with each other. They only tried to fit in where the anime was currently, so anything said in Janemba means nothing. Further, it's not like anything was shown, it was just stated. If you consider canon, Goku had not JUST developed SSJ3 right before arriving on Earth for the Majin saga. He had had it long enough to know its draw backs and been able to train it a bit, and understand the wear it puts on his body. He definitely had it at the time.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by GDB

Games are as far as canon as you can get.



Staggering doesn't really mean much. Vegeta staggered perfect Cell too, but was nowhere near his strength. And we don't know Goku was only SSJ2 at the end of that movie, in fact it's far more likely he was SSJ3. There's no reason he wouldn't have been.

Drop the bitterness, I get it. You hate GT. Doesn't change that the games are the real moneymakers here and they took liberties with the canon the moment they started adding in Movies into the games as not all the movies for Z, or even DB, are canon. Hell, the anime itself isn't canon nor is DBO(Which is still very popular and going on as canon has nothing to do with enjoyment). Only the Manga and a few of the Movies are.

Akira and Fans still like SSJ4. Another thing is that nothing SSJG was shown to do even comes close to what SSJ4 Gogeta was able to do. That and the movie has already established that SSJG Goku was not even strong enough for Bills to even get near his full power and than Wiess was established as being much stronger than Bills anyway.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Drop the bitterness, I get it. You hate GT.

It's not bitterness. You said you wanted SSJ4 Gogeta vs Whis (or however his name is going to be romanized). In an anime topic, the implication is that you want it animated. That cannot happen, as SSJ4 does not exist in this continuity. If you want to argue games, then fine, specify that. Don't go on a mad tirade because you didn't specify what you meant.

Another thing is that nothing SSJG was shown to do even comes close to what SSJ4 Gogeta was able to do. That and the movie has already established that SSJG Goku was not even strong enough for Bills to even get near his full power and than Wiess was established as being much stronger than Bills anyway.

We don't really have a frame of reference for how strong SSJG is compared to SSJ4. At no time do they ever fight the same opponents, and everyone else got just as walloped by Bills as they did against Omega Shenron.

[Marikina]

Originally Posted by GDB

At the end of the fight, when he made Cell stagger so Gohan could finish it, as well as when he used Final Flash.

Outside of the Broly movies, none of the movies even pretended to be canon with each other. They only tried to fit in where the anime was currently, so anything said in Janemba means nothing. Further, it's not like anything was shown, it was just stated. If you consider canon, Goku had not JUST developed SSJ3 right before arriving on Earth for the Majin saga. He had had it long enough to know its draw backs and been able to train it a bit, and understand the wear it puts on his body. He definitely had it at the time.

I don't recall Cell budging from where he stood in the two instances you brought up.

Paragus and Bojack appear among the horde from Hell in movie 12, so it acknowledges the other movies.

My point was that Toei only works with what they got, and since SSJ3 hadn't appeared yet in either medium the max Goku could've used to beat Broly at the time was SSJ2.

[ChainLegacy]

I don't consider Broly or any of the movies until this new one canon and definitely not GT.

SSJ4 and the Golden Oozaru were probably the only cool ideas from GT. I also like the idea of the dragonballs being a central element in the final saga, but I think the way they did it was stupid. Ideally, I'd like the mechanics of the dragonballs to be explained and what force controls the dragon, etc (one of the higher up gods in Bills's pantheon would have fit nicely).

To be honest, I have trouble even considering this new movie canon, even though Toriyama made it, it just doesn't feel like it's a part of the old canon. Might be my nostalgia goggles, but I dunno. I haven't seen it yet, but the plot just doesn't seem as fun or cool as old school sagas. The only part I kind of liked was Vegeta getting a temporary super blow (which I always thought should have happened during the Cell battle when Future Trunks was killed.)

[Destined_Fate]

It wasn't a part of the original canon which is the DBZ Manga. Anything after was made up after the product was long since finished. So if you're a real canon buff you would deny anything and everything that wasn't in the original Manga publishing. Especially considering that Akira has changed his mind a few times.

If GT was well received, for example, you know he wouldn't be denying it as canon. Since it wasn't he washed his hands of it even though he likes SSJ4 and is instead making these movies now. The Bills movie is "Okay" but it isn't great and it was more Goku Time than GT ever was. At the very least it's far better than the Tarble Movie which was just downright horrible and felt like one huge joke.

Originally Posted by GDB

It's not bitterness. You said you wanted SSJ4 Gogeta vs Whis (or however his name is going to be romanized). In an anime topic, the implication is that you want it animated. That cannot happen, as SSJ4 does not exist in this continuity. If you want to argue games, then fine, specify that. Don't go on a mad tirade because you didn't specify what you meant.



We don't really have a frame of reference for how strong SSJG is compared to SSJ4. At no time do they ever fight the same opponents, and everyone else got just as walloped by Bills as they did against Omega Shenron.

And it will happen eventually in the games as the movie shows that SSJG Goku has no chance against Bills, if he fought for real, while Wiess should that he was far stronger than Bills. The only character in the franchise, even if uncanon it still had Akira's approval, that could match that power is SSJ4 Gogeta who easily took down a godlike being when he bothered to fight.

Don't be throwing a hissy fit every time someone brings up anything about GT. SSJG Goku is pathetic as he cannot even match 50% of Bills power, SSJ4 Gogeta so far is the only one that is shown, through GT, as being strong enough to actually beat Bills and Wiess due to his exploits.

And actually you can. Omega Sheron is a literal God, he was made a fool out of by SSJ4 Gogeta.

Bills is a literal God, he made a fool out of SSJG Goku and than was made a fool out of by Wiess.

Thus the ultimate fight the fans of the franchise look forward to in the games will be SSJ4 Gogeta vs Wiess as they're established as the strongest in their respective eras with Wiess's true power not even shown yet as he required little effort to defeat Bills.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And it will happen eventually in the games as the movie shows that SSJG Goku has no chance against Bills, if he fought for real, while Wiess should that he was far stronger than Bills. The only character in the franchise, even if uncanon it still had Akira's approval, that could match that power is SSJ4 Gogeta who easily took down a godlike being when he bothered to fight.

Again, games don't matter for canon. You can beat SSJ4 Gogeta with Videl. Does that mean Videl is stronger? No, it means it's a game.

Don't be throwing a hissy fit every time someone brings up anything about GT.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that I'm throwing a hissy fit, but you really need to knock it off. The closest thing to a hissy fit is what you're doing now, where someone brought up that SSJ4 doesn't exist in canon and you went on a long, multi-post tirade about how none of that matters "because".

SSJG Goku is pathetic as he cannot even match 50% of Bills power, SSJ4 Gogeta so far is the only one that is shown, through GT, as being strong enough to actually beat Bills and Wiess due to his exploits.

And actually you can. Omega Sheron is a literal God, he was made a fool out of by SSJ4 Gogeta.

Bills is a literal God, he made a fool out of SSJG Goku and than was made a fool out of by Wiess.

Haven't watched it yet, but from my understanding SSJG Goku wore Bills down to no energy. Even if he was defeated in the end, that still means he did far more than "50%".

And again, there's no frame of reference. You're just throwing out terms like "godlike" and hoping they'll stick to keep your argument coherent. For your reference, Vegito was stated in the GT anime comics to be on par with SSJ4 Goku. Not even Super Vegito, mind you, just normal Vegito. Then, you can add in that Goku supposedly said he'd never felt the kind of power he had as a SSJG before, meaning it could theoretically be stronger than Super Vegito.

Besides, I don't see how you can say Whis > Bills > SSJG Goku, and SSJ4 Gogeta > Omega Shenron, thus SSJ4 Gogeta > Whis. There's no logical connection there. You can say Omega Shenron is a "literal god", but he isn't. In fact, this movie outright confirms he isn't, as he doesn't have god ki. I'm also pretty sure that in GT he's just the embodiment of the negative energy from wishes, which has nothing to do with gods at all.

Thus the ultimate fight the fans of the franchise look forward to in the games will be SSJ4 Gogeta vs Wiess as they're established as the strongest in their respective eras with Wiess's true power not even shown yet as he required little effort to defeat Bills.

See, this is the only place your argument makes any sense. You could just say you want the fight since it'd be ultimate Z vs ultimate GT, but that's not what you've been arguing. You also keep going on about the games, but this isn't a game topic. It's the anime topic, and as such discussion should be kept to the anime.

Also, there's a decent chance you may never get that fight, since it seems the developers have been leaving GT stuff out of non-DB Heroes games lately. It doesn't seem like they'll be in "Battle of Z" or whatever that upcoming game is either.

[Destined_Fate]

This is the movie topic, not the anime topic. So we're both off topic now. I suggest you drop it, as I have, as this isn't going anywhere.

[sayde]

Just finished watching the movie and felt like posting my thoughts as it pertains to the new god form and some of the discussions going on in this thread.

Spoiler for movie:

This movie gave me the distinct impression that they're trying to establish a new tier and dimension of power. In a sense, it felt VERY similar to what Kubo tried to do with Bleach during the Deicide arc, but it has its differences nonetheless. Bills and Whis apparently have a type of ki that's so powerful that it can't be felt. For all intents and purposes, I'm just going to refer to it as "god ki". And this happens to be the same type of transcendent level of energy Goku was temporarily able to gain by undergoing the SSJ God ceremony.

And the one thing that really pushes the idea of this type of ki being transcendent and not something that can be comparable to "ki" as we've come to know it was the ceremony for the transformation in and of itself. Because apparently, 5 Saiyans pouring their ki into one is not going to allow the 6th Saiyan to transcend to God-tier. On the contrary, the mere fact that the unborn Pan was able to contribute to the ceremony and couldn't have been completed without her directly implies (if not confirms) that SSJ God could be achieved with little more than 6 weak normal Saiyan children so long as they were all pure of heart. So it's almost as if they're trying to say that this transcendent level of power comes primarily from the strength and purity of the spirit/soul, as oppose to a more physical form of energy (like ki).

What I think this means is that we might have to stop trying to compare the likes of SSJ4 Gogeta or Omega Shenron to someone like SSJ God Goku or Bills or Whis. Because while those GT exclusive characters might represent the ultimate pinnacle of strength within this standard dimension of "ki" as we've come to know it, those with "god ki" seem to literally be within their own dimension of power and therefore, will automatically stand above anyone who doesn't possess a similar type of energy. To put it into terms Aizen/Tite Kubo would use--a 2 dimensional being can't interfere with a 3 dimensional being. It's why SSJ3 Goku was able to go from being beaten in two hits to being able to become a formidable challenge to Bills despite having not really grown in strength himself thoughout the course of the movie. With the help of the other Saiyans, he unlocked a new type of power and the only type capable of fighting with actual gods.

Now with the establishment of "god ki" and confirmation of there being 12 universes with multiple gods of destruction, and many more powerful beings", it's like they're trying to set up an entire new tier of power levels. And Goku, Vegeta, Bills, and Whis could wind up starting at the very bottom of the ladder in the grand scheme of things to come should they decide to expand on the concepts this movie has introduced.

So I apologize if this sounds like I'm offending die-hard fans of GT characters and their power levels. If it's any consolation, hypothetically speaking, SSJ4 Gogeta would probably be able to kick the crap out of Bills with his little pink-toe if Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Bra did the ceremony for him to convert his ki to god-tier.

Overall, I liked the movie. Definitely was a change of pace from all the previous ones. The main antagonist came off as threatening without feeling very threatening (I know that makes no sense. lol) Overall, it was probably the most light hearted DBZ movie I've seen yet. It had plenty of comical moments and a main antagonist that didn't really feel like a bad guy per say. Bills was just an interesting cat. (pun intended). Yes, he toyed around with the idea of blowing up earth a few times, but for reasons that were so childish, that it was almost difficult to consider him evil for it--just extremely immature.

[Goty]

Movie was incredibly fun. Great art, beautiful animation and funny comedy bits - speaking of which, Toriyama's touch was definitely felt through the humor style and character interactions. Vegeta and Pilaf's crew stole a few scenes, and Bills is much more likeable than the average, fillerish movie villain.

Anyway, this was obviously intended to open new possibilities expanding the DB world, so i can't wait for more Dragonball.

Originally Posted by sayde

Spoiler for movie:

Bills and Whis apparently have a type of ki that's so powerful that it can't be felt. For all intents and purposes, I'm just going to refer to it as "god ki".

Spoiler:

I don't think "god ki" is appropriate, because Bills and Whis were pretty much ignorant about that concept - Bills even says at one point, "the thing you people call KI".
They treated it in a way that it's almost like they want to discard that notion.

I think the movie simply implies that Gods are completely different beings whose strength can't be detected or felt by average human beings using their familiar notion, regardless of battle power. They're existences that go beyond that. But yes, they can't be compared to what we previously knew.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Goty

Spoiler:

I don't think "god ki" is appropriate, because Bills and Whis were pretty much ignorant about that concept - Bills even says at one point, "the thing you people call KI".
They treated it in a way that it's almost like they want to discard that notion.

Spoiler for movie:

I think the movie simply implies that Gods are completely different beings whose strength can't be measured or pointed by average human beings, regardless of battle power. They're existences that go beyond that. But yes, they can't be compared to what we previously knew.

Spoiler:

Fair enough. "God ki" is just a term I'm using for the sake of simplicity for now--to refer to whatever type of transcendent power these beings utilize. It may very well be a completely different thing from "ki", so much so that the same concept can't even be applied. But at the very least, it does seem fair to regard it as a type of energy since it isn't infinite and can be measured/felt by beings of the same tier (as Whis's statements to Bills suggest at the end of the movie).

[ChainLegacy]

I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed the movie. When I originally read the plot, it didn't seem to have that "epic" feel of your usual Dragonball Z conflict. You can even see my above comments referring to how it doesn't feel like a part of the main canon... and it's true, after watching it, this feels completely different from what preceded it "chronologically, in-universe."

I was correct in saying so. This definitely wasn't the same type of enjoyment you get watching the Cell saga, for instance. I would say this is very similar in tone and feeling to the early seasons of Dragonball when Goku was still a kid. To be honest, it might even be more lighthearted than that, if possible - this was definitely more lighthearted even than the Tienshinhan and King Piccolo arcs of Dragonball. It's got the stylings and look of your intense DBZ fights, with the carefree, humorous execution of very early Dragonball.

Now personally, I'm more of an epic DBZ guy... the plot here is not as intense or 'cool' as usual. Since it's a movie, we obviously don't have the time to gradually build up the villains as much as the anime villains, either. Despite that, the fight scenes were top notch, as always, and I really enjoyed the humor. One of my favorite funny parts is when Trunks lies and says Mai is his girlfriend So yeah, would I have preferred a Frieza/Cell type atmosphere and conflict? Yes, but I still thoroughly enjoyed what we got. I'm game for more, as seems to be the intention.

[GDB]

Only thing I truly hated was when Bills and Goku fought in the desert/mountains, the CG was so glaringly obvious and bad.

Oh, and I don't like the fact that, if this movie is truly supposed to be canon, they basically made the Tarble (Yo Son Goku) special canon as well.

[Mad Pierrot]

The movie felt like a make up for how boring was the Buu arc.

Spoiler for reason:

After making Goku a Gary Stu by having him replace all of the saga's main characters to beat the villain, the character felt like he destroyed all the logic in power ups as Gohan and Gotenks appeared to be much stronger and yet couldn't stop Buu.

In the movie, Goku faces an opponent who kicks his ass in and has to go through a new transformation that makes more sense than shaving your eyebrows. He gives a good fight without doing a lot of explosions but he loses again. After making Goku win most of his fights, it feels like Toriyama is trying to tell us there is nothing bad with losing.

Originally Posted by GDB

Oh, and I don't like the fact that, if this movie is truly supposed to be canon, they basically made the Tarble (Yo Son Goku) special canon as well.

I read in the manga version of Yo Son Goku that not even Toriyama liked that OVA.

[Marikina]

Originally Posted by sayde

Spoiler for movie:

This movie gave me the distinct impression that they're trying to establish a new tier and dimension of power. In a sense, it felt VERY similar to what Kubo tried to do with Bleach during the Deicide arc, but it has its differences nonetheless. Bills and Whis apparently have a type of ki that's so powerful that it can't be felt. For all intents and purposes, I'm just going to refer to it as "god ki". And this happens to be the same type of transcendent level of energy Goku was temporarily able to gain by undergoing the SSJ God ceremony.

Spoiler:

The "god ki" as you put it not being sensed has nothing to do with its strength, but its nature in general. The Kaioshins have the same kind of ki but just in a lower level.