Valvrave the Liberator 2 - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Blizzard]

*long sigh* Interpreting stuff conveniently for one's own argument is fine but at some point it slips into "do people even watch the show before assuming?"

Spoiler for ...:

Ending in "Pressure is needed during the negotiations."

Edit: I didn't realize Haruto proposed the Operation Earth though. I mean I remember him pushing for experiments but not that. I guess part of me couldn't believe he'd dare suggest such smart(OOC) and stuff. I'll look into it now.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

You can't blame the magius for just their existence. If anything is to blame is human intrigue. JIOR found Pino, and wanted to do something with their discovery. The adults of Module 77 share half, if not most of the blame, for what has happened to these students.

No, it because of their existence this conflict started. They choose to instead of returning to their own planet they want to control the human behind the shadow and used them as food thus caused what happened now.

[~BC~]

Until we find out that Ryuuj's reason for proposing the project was manipulated by the Magius; I'd say this conflict is very much the result of humans.

[Twi]

I brought that point up before. They're extra-solar and there isn't a human ship capable of moving fast enough to get them back to their home world before their runes supply dry up. But I agree they shouldn't get away with everything they've done.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by username31

one thing she can control that made all of this happen is the independent idea she incided in S1...all the mess started from that

That was inevitable. If she didn't do it, L-Elf was gonna. So the mess would've still happened, just that the blood would've been on someone else's hands.

Originally Posted by Blizzard

And the part where she ran for president.

Which she was coerced into.

And the part where she rejected Eruerufu's military country.

Fair point, but can you blame her? What normal person automatically adjusts from a school setting to a military state?

And the part where she sent the crew to earth.

Correction: I think Haruto is behind the conception of the operation, but L-Elf is the one who volunteered & structured the mission & pushed for her to approve it.

And the part where she organized that bloody peace meeting.

I can't refute that.

And the part she sold Haruto and Eruerufu out. And stuff and stuff she's been pretty proactive as far as the plot goes.

This is debatable depending on PoV. Judging from your post, you place her completely in the wrong. I however, considered that to be the correct decision, but not the right one. So Lets not nitpick on that one.

In comparison Haruto's been merely fighting in the robot on orders and going with the flow/Eruerufu. His only real conscious decisions were pressing YES at the beginning and teaming up with Eruerufu before this episode. And first one was repeated by four other characters without much thought later on.

Now you're downplaying Haruto to highlight Shoko's decisions.

Last I checked, he's the one that's been on a secret keeping spree that caused shit to hit the fan in S2 ep 9. He's the one that's been torturing himself with "I'm a bakemono" since the beginning of the series, while his fellow pilots have accepted the reality & it doesn't bother them.

Everything for him is: "I'll end this myself" & "I'll do everything" So yea, he's the reason for ALL his suffering.

While Shoko's suffering is a combination of some of her own choices, stuff that Haruto caused, soon to be because of her father & if she finds out about the ep 5 kiss & consensual rape, that'll be the icing on the cake.

----------------------------------

Well, I'm not entertaining another long ass Shoko discussion. Learned my lesson with the episode 9 thread. So I'll leave this right here.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

No, it because of their existence this conflict started. They choose to instead of returning to their own planet they want to control the human behind the shadow and used them as food thus caused what happened now.

They couldn't. They had to means of getting home. If you were in their situation, you wouldn't just roll over and die either, you'd try to survive by any means without care for the native species. Humans are exactly like this too, if not much worse.

Doesn't mean they should get away with everything of course, but it also means that they're not all evil and deserve to be exterminated or anything like that.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Until we find out that Ryuuj's reason for proposing the project was manipulated by the Magius; I'd say this conflict is very much the result of humans.

When the Magius say that they controlled the human behind shadow, they very much are the caused of this conflict.

@Twi they have a whole centuries of times to gather runes as fuel and they could built whatever the heck they needed themselves during this time but they didn't, if they can built the ship than they can fix it as well. Also from what I'm seeing, the Magius isn't even interested in returning to their own planet. All the talk so far is to manipulated human behind their back while abducting them for food.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

When the Magius say that they controlled the human behind shadow, they very much are the caused of this conflict.

That only seemed to be insofar as keeping humans out of their affairs. And actually the whole thing with Lieselotte being a political prisoner actually kept Dorssia's internal strife in check. We see how fast they (Royalists) are to start rioting the moment she's dead.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

When the Magius say that they controlled the human behind shadow, they very much are the caused of this conflict.

@Twi they have a whole centuries of times to gather runes as fuel and they could built whatever the heck they needed themselves during this time but they didn't, if they can built the ship than they can fix it as well. Also from what I'm seeing, the Magius isn't even interested in returning to their own planet. All the talk so far is to manipulated human behind their back while abducting them for food.

If you remember what Lise said, the Council was only formed recently in response to the secret war against humans and that they were formed to protect their people from human discovery so that what happened to Neo JIOR didn't happen to them. And by their own admission amongst themselves, they don't usually interfere in human affairs, only when they infringe on their own people's safety.

Also remember that the Magius had to start over from scratch, their ship was damaged beyond repair. They concentrated on survival on this planet, the survival of their people was paramount. The materials they would need to create a new spaceship would have to come from Earth and unfortunately, even to this day, humanity still hasn't been able to advance enough for the Magius to be able to create a way to get home. They need a ship that can travel at interstellar speeds with enough runes to last all of their people the trip. They don't have that yet.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Until we find out that Ryuuj's reason for proposing the project was manipulated by the Magius; I'd say this conflict is very much the result of humans.

Considering they didn't even know about the Valvraves, until it was broadcasted to the entire world, we already know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

No, it because of their existence this conflict started. They choose to instead of returning to their own planet they want to control the human behind the shadow and used them as food thus caused what happened now.

If they could return to their home world, they wouldn't stay here, where the most substantial amount of runes are in humans, and that's not saying much.

[DevilHighDxD]

One human can provide a human's lifetime worth of runes yet they have 100s of phantoms going around abducting thousand to tens of thousand of innocent people to harvest runes, they also willingly to jacked a small innocent girl like Lise. They have Cain to train their potential host like how that one Magius want a young intellect body, they are a hypocrite when they say want to hide their existence from the world yet they let some humans to know about their existence to further their agenda. They could just jacked one human and tried to used that body as long as it possible without hurting other as much as possible then jacked other body when runes in their previous host is dried which I could understand but they didn't. Again I won't sympathize with these "monster" knowing that they could secretly coexist with human peacefully and not hurt them as much as possible but yet they treat them like cattle and putting these string behind their back. Lise is a outlier out of these Magius.


Also again no Magius no Valvrave Project, no Valvrave Project no Valvrave, no Valvrave no invasion, no invasion no New JIOR and no New JIOR no massacre of New JIOR. Most importantly no Magius no episode 10, no Magius no Saki getting captured and get stabbed while being exposed as a Kamitsuki which permanently ended her career as a idol forever which is her dream.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Everyone made choices that bit them in the ass at some point and continue to do so.

I agree with you. That's an important theme.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

One human can provide a human's lifetime worth of runes yet they have 100s of phantoms going around abducting thousand to tens of thousand of innocent people to harvest runes, they also willingly to jacked a small innocent girl like Lise. They have Cain to train their potential host like how that one Magius want a young intellect body, they are a hypocrite when they say want to hide their existence from the world yet they let some humans to know about their existence to further their agenda. They could just jacked one human and tried to used that body as long as it possible without hurting other as much as possible then jacked other body when runes in their previous host is dried which I could understand but they didn't. Again I won't sympathize with these "monster" knowing that they could secretly coexist with human peacefully and not hurt them as much as possible but yet they treat them like cattle and putting these string behind their back. Lise is a outlier out of these Magius.


Also again no Magius no Valvrave Project, no Valvrave Project no Valvrave, no Valvrave no invasion, no invasion no New JIOR and no New JIOR no massacre of New JIOR. Most importantly no Magius no episode 10, no Magius no Saki getting captured and get stabbed while being exposed as a Kamitsuki which permanently ended her career as a idol forever which is her dream.

When did it say that one human could sustain them for a lifetime? They have to continue to eat just like we do, that's why they eventually created the Phantoms. Before that, they probably were the vampires of old as the time they landed in was still with people riding horses. They had to hunt the old fashioned way. But just like humans modernized the way we get and store food, so did the Magius. The Phantoms are simply and easier way for them to get large amounts of runes without them putting themselves in the danger of being caught while on the hunt.

I know you hate the Magius, and they have done bad things, but you can't just fall down a slippery slope and have everything blamed on them. There are things called "choices" and "decisions" that had an even larger part of everything that happened than simply the Magius crash landing on Earth. It was the scientists' choice to use Magius' technology without understanding. It was JIORs choice to experiment on their own children because their leader took everyone in with his god complex. It was the PM's decision to approve this, even deciding to subject his only child to this program that was to make weapons of mass destruction. The creation of these experiments is what lead up to episode 10. Nothing would have worked if they hadn't decided to play God.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

When did it say that one human could sustain them for a lifetime? They have to continue to eat just like we do, that's why they eventually created the Phantoms. Before that, they probably were the vampires of old as the time they landed in was still with people riding horses. They had to hunt the old fashioned way. But just like humans modernized the way we get and store food, so did the Magius. The Phantoms are simply and easier way for them to get large amounts of runes without them putting themselves in the danger of being caught while on the hunt.

I know you hate the Magius, and they have done bad things, but you can't just fall down a slippery slope and have everything blamed on them. There are things called "choices" and "decisions" that had an even larger part of everything that happened than simply the Magius crash landing on Earth. It was the scientists' choice to use Magius' technology without understanding. It was JIORs choice to experiment on their own children because their leader took everyone in with his god complex. It was the PM's decision to approve this, even deciding to subject his only child to this program that was to make weapons of mass destruction. The creation of these experiments is what lead up to episode 10. Nothing would have worked if they hadn't decided to play God.

For a human's lifetime that average 80-90 years worth of runes if they just stick to that host without excessively using their runes manipulation ability, I get that they need to runes but they are harvesting way more than enough runes for them. They aren't doing just for the sake of feeding themselves it now, they are doing it for something else.

[Kurohane]

^ That's just your own speculation, when we don't even have all the facts. You realize that, don't you?

Cain said it took a great amount of work for that one canister he had. Humans may be a substantial source, but not as much as you give them credit for. They are just the only beings that have the most, compared to everything else on the planet. The magius wouldn't have needed to gather so many, if humans were so rich in runes. It didn't take long for the Phantom to suck all those people dry in episode 21.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

^ That's just your own speculation, when we don't even have all the facts. You realize that, don't you?

Cain said it took a great amount of work for that one canister he had. Humans may be a substantial source, but not as much as you give them credit for. They are just the only beings that have the most, compared to everything else on the planet. The magius wouldn't have needed to gather so many, if humans were so rich in runes. It didn't take long for the Phantom to suck all those people dry in episode 21.

Human lived with that much runes, so I don't see why the Magius can't lived using that much runes in human's body and not to mention the fact that runes consist of memories that can be generated just by living alone. Only when they disrupt that balance they die like in the case of Marie and Lise, they were able to lived on just on bare bone amount of rune.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Human lived with that much runes, so I don't see why the Magius can't lived using that much runes in human's body and not to mention the fact that runes consist of memories that can be generated just by living alone. Only when they disrupt that balance they die like in the case of Marie and Lise, they were able to lived on just on bare bone amount of rune.

Marie is a special case since she's more of a Kamitsuki than a Magius, we don't know actual consumption in order to survive, and just by living long didn't mean they generated that huge amount of information, not to mention that human body deteriorated over time, it's isn't that great of a information container.

[Guido]

Season two has turned very enjoyable in matters of both interactions and development for the characters, as well as the sudden twists that the writers have been pulling out.

Twists after twists is what we have been treated, and if fate turned abysmal in the previous episode, then it turned again igniting a renewed flame of hope for both Haruto and L-Elf. In fact, the current season has been touching closely upon the dynamics built around the Haruto and L-Elf relationship, and they stumbled across a slump to hit bottom low in order for each one of them to realize for themselves that they are risking their lives for something that together they can create: a world for both human and kamitsuki to live in prosperity. For that to make it happen, they must first regain the trust and confidence of their comrades lying in desperate need to be rescued, and next I think they will need even more comrades and friends from across the Earth.

At the end of each episode's preview, the caption card reads that the Valvrave is the system that is going to free the world. In a more correct context, Valvrave is, indeed, the system that is going to expose the whole truth to the entire world in order to free it from the shackles of lies, fear, hatred, and deception. To sum it up, the Valvrave will be arrows used by Haruto and L-Elf to point and shoot at the Magi in order to expose them before the world. Now, that those two boys have forged their new bond I feel like they can pull such a feat in the last two episodes, although that is positive thinking from my part.

Let us take notice as well that A-Drei going through his own internal struggles and personal demons, if he had to make the choice of letting Saki go free, though that's my personal interpretation of those events. Nevertheless, it could turn for a favorable outcome if A-Drei joins up with the loyalist rebel faction.

[Piesum]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

If you remember what Lise said, the Council was only formed recently in response to the secret war against humans and that they were formed to protect their people from human discovery so that what happened to Neo JIOR didn't happen to them. And by their own admission amongst themselves, they don't usually interfere in human affairs, only when they infringe on their own people's safety.

Technically they are always infringing on human affairs..in the sense that they are taking large amounts of people and using them for runes. Think about the effect that has on humans..There must be tons of missing people from families, that right there is infringing on human affairs.

I'm not saying what they should or should not do. I for one think that it sucks for humans that they are not at the top of the food chain anymore, the magius are doing the same things humans do to animals today..(although there are some extra issues because humans are at a different intelligence level than animals.) But that's the way it happened. BUT for them to say they usually don't interfere with human affairs is kinda pathetic. I'd rather they call themselves the enemy of humankind straight-out. (I understand they meant other things like government and human-specific issues and politics..but everything is connected, and everything has an impact..which overall effects humans).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

Marie is a special case since she's more of a Kamitsuki than a Magius, we don't know actual consumption in order to survive, and just by living long didn't mean they generated that huge amount of information, not to mention that human body deteriorated over time, it's isn't that great of a information container.

Marie and Liselotte died the same way. Rune drainage via machine.

Marie's runes were eaten by the Rave engine. Pino only takes a small amount of Runes.

Liselotte as punishment for her coexistence stance is drained of her Runes via a Rune draining chamber.

Both sacrificed themselves to save others but the real cause of their death is artificial in nature.