[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm like 99% positive the bolded isn't actually the case.

It really isn't, which brings the question of what is the case? Yasu definitely isn't some guilty teenager, she might be for writing stories that ended up predicting the deaths of 17 people but that's as far as it can go.

Originally Posted by James Lame

I'd agree with that, but it could very well be that she had indirectly caused someones demise. Or maybe even something vaguer than that, like giving the opportunity for the murders to take place.

Now that I think about it, I don't think it actually adds up with what they were talking about. Saying "I have committed countless sins across countless worlds." is weird upon itself but if I'm not mistaken Battler said that she hadn't committed any sins in this world. So i can't really think of a logical reason that she would opt for suicide.

Its probably a fictional scene.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I want to add my input about the whole discussion about the tea party of EP7.

In the first place providing a solution in the end with something that was never hinted isn't narratively satisfying. It's not just a Knox rule, it simply doesn't really work well in narrative, that's what the layman calls "asspull". You can tell that the whole accident was caused by aliens or by a meteorite or by an international secret organization that was developing an atomic bomb. Anything could "work" if you have the freedom to come up with stuff that was never mentioned not hinted in any way, but that's completely lame and the readers won't be satisfied.

Even if a character has an hidden side there should be some hint or some reason to think that side exists. Now that Kyrie could be a murderer that was hinted well enough, no problem with that. But that Kyrie is completely stupid? Definitely not.
And here you can't talk about "sides". You are either an intelligent analytical person or you are dumb. What the EP7 party shows is a Kyrie that can't reason past the surface of things, which is totally at odd with anything we knew about her.

Naturally of you think Kyrie had other reasons, or that the part where she acts stupid are false scenes, that's a different matter. But then you need to provide an explanation.

Lastly I would like to express my opinion on the matter of "madness" as a movent for a culprit. While "mad" people exist and therefore it isn't unrealistic for a crime to be committed just out of pure madness, it's yet another thing that doesn't really work in narrative. If we are supposed to think about a movent (and Ryuukishi himself made a point about that) then it must be something worth our efforts. It must be something that can be deduced by logic and difficult to be obtained. "Madness" is an extremely easy and trivial answer to that question. Madness stands to whydunit as magic stands to howdunit: there is absolutely nothing you cannot explain with it. I'm not saying that the culprit shouldn't be mad, but the culprit needs to have a reason other than simply madness.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, I specifically brought it up against the EP7 Tea Party in this particular instance. It's what it was in response to when I copyquoted a message, afterall. :P

Well then, guess we all can agree that the EP7 tea party was complete bullcrap!

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's the theory that the entire scene is fictional, since it's the "Golden Rose" Featherine tosses into the water.

Or that Beatrice was never in that scene and Battler is going nutters.

The former is more probable of the two in my opinion. I don't see why Battler would go crazy.

Originally Posted by James Lame

Yeah, I'd think both of those are more plausible than it being a real event.

Straight up.

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

I simply see it as Yasu going with Battler on the boat after he made her,
drowing herself using the ingot they brought as extra weight so Battler
couldn't save her and Battler falling unconscious after trying regardless.
Anything else about the scene I take with a grain of salt.
It's just as likely that she merely told him about the leftover base and the boat beforehand, but I don't see why it's more likely than the other.

That kind of makes me wonder why would she commit suicide? Seriously, she can't be that guilty...

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

The former is more probable of the two in my opinion. I don't see why Battler would go crazy.

He could be traumatized after the loss of his entire family.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by James Lame

He could be traumatized after the loss of his entire family.

Good point, but isn't there some change in character to signify that he's gone cuckoo?

[AuraTwilight]

He's extremely chipper and upbeat for someone who's entire family is dead. Either he did it or he's gone cookoo for coco puffs.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

He's extremely chipper and upbeat for someone who's entire family is dead. Either he did it or he's gone cookoo for coco puffs.

I see. Then yeah, he's probably crazy.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Kinda thought it was just the fantasy view glorifying him due to the tone the scene was going for.
but yeah, it wouldn't be anything strange at all for him to imagine air-Yasu if he's really acting like that while escaping after whatever happened.

[Oblivion]

When you choose trick, we see Ange back on the boat. Do we take this scene as we see it or does it represent something else?

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

When you choose trick, we see Ange back on the boat. Do we take this scene as we see it or does it represent something else?

As you choose the none magic alternative, i would assume it's fairly close to a "real" scene.

[orangejuicetang]

Actually, I just realized it, how much that choice kind of reminded me of the Maria vs Erika scene in Episode 6. Maria interpreted the candy trick as magic, Erika could only see it as some sort of trick.

In a way, that's also how the two endings differ, whether Ange ends up with Maria's interpretation of it being magic, or Erika's interpretation of it simply being a trick.

Also, for some reason, I really kind of want to see what a Detective Ange would be like.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

I'll probably be causing a bad backlash by proposing this,
but I figured I'd present it before people simple tire of the subject and just ignores it.
Could it be that the times when Ryukishi's been daring people to solve the mystery was specifcally in relation to Beato's games? After all, the 'answer arc' was spent dropping hints that was placed with the intent of revealing those games (with Clair's confession being the final push towards the solutions). Was finding the one set-in-stone truth, not of the games presented to us, but the story's real world event even the goal?
Sure, it was Ange's goal, but was it ever presented to the reader as their destination?

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

I'll probably be causing a bad backlash by proposing this,
but I figured I'd present it before people simple tire of the subject and just ignores it.
Could it be that the times when Ryukishi's been daring people to solve the mystery was specifcally in relation to Beato's games? After all, the 'answer arc' was spent dropping hints that was placed with the intent of revealing those games (with Clair's confession being the final push towards the solutions). Was finding the one set-in-stone truth, not of the games presented to us, but the story's real world event even the goal?
Sure, it was Ange's goal, but was it ever presented to the reader as their destination?

Seemingly, it was. All the games are supposed to present various truths about the real Rokkenjima. How find and organize those truths, however, is the question. Personally, I believe that if you solve the each EP you should find a certain truth about the game. The weird thing is, a truth presented in one game differs from a truth in another. For example, in EP1 there is no Beatrice, but in EP2 Beatrice existed.

[orangejuicetang]

Quick random question.

Bern is, well even though she's not Rika, she has some sort of connection/parallel or something to Rika, right?

And Lambda was to Takano, right?

But during Bern's entrance in Ep 8, Lambda's riddle, the one she got tricked with in the past, isn't that more Satoko, right?

[AuraTwilight]

No, it's Takano all the way through; it's just Lambdadelta is being extra childish...and fakes being stupid a lot.

[orangejuicetang]

I meant the riddle itself was something Sakoto got tricked with

[Oblivion]

Another question. Ange says that basically her whole "journey" in finding the truth all happened while she was on the roof. I'm not sure how that even works out, even if metaphors are used. So this was all in her head?

And in the other ending while she's on the boat, if that scene is meant to be taken as it is, then is the card she has real or just an illusion?

[orangejuicetang]

You could possibly chalk it up to 'lol magic' (ironic, in a sort of way).
Since it's been like implied to take place while she's falling from the skyscraper (I think this was implied at various points during the story, like near Ange and Erika's talk about truth), on the boat (trick ending), or right before she jumped (magic ending).

Also, she somehow keeps the prize in trick ending, which is pretty much 'magic' (yet another sort of irony). Can't remember right now if she keeps the prize in magic ending.

[Kylon99]

I was thinking that a lot of the 'Ange' that we see, in fact, probably all of it until the very last scene with Kotobuki and Tooya was his character of Ange for the story only. I suspect that Battler-Tooya was speculating on how Ange's life would have went, whether it went for good or whether she became bitter and despondent. So this was his way of working it out into fiction.

Basically all the information that he had was that Eva died and Ange disappeared, perhaps died. The last point at which she was publicly known was when she was standing on the top of a skyscraper.

So anything after that was Tooya's character, Ange, who, because she's fictional, can do things like go back in time, regress to 6 years old, gain extra memories of Hachijou Ikuko, fade between Meta and Real worlds or... work out her entire emotional state consisting of several episodes in what seems like a fraction of a second, standing on top of a skyscraper. 8)

[AuraTwilight]

Everything is Meta theory explains everything perfectly.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

I'll probably be causing a bad backlash by proposing this,
but I figured I'd present it before people simple tire of the subject and just ignores it.
Could it be that the times when Ryukishi's been daring people to solve the mystery was specifcally in relation to Beato's games? After all, the 'answer arc' was spent dropping hints that was placed with the intent of revealing those games (with Clair's confession being the final push towards the solutions). Was finding the one set-in-stone truth, not of the games presented to us, but the story's real world event even the goal?
Sure, it was Ange's goal, but was it ever presented to the reader as their destination?

You are not the first who suggested that and it's not impossible, but the existence of a Rokkenjima Prime and the quest for its truth is something that we have been exposed to since EP4. It's only natural that the readers want to know what happened after being teased with such a question for so long.

Even then it's not like the mysteries of the games were solved. Will in EP7 didn't really explain them clearly, not even remotely in a satisfying manner.
There are a lot of questions that remained unresolved and the whole shkanon issue is still debated and so is the motive of the culprit (Yasu). While possible explanations exist none is confirmed and many people aren't satisfied with any of them.

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by Oblivion

Another question. Ange says that basically her whole "journey" in finding the truth all happened while she was on the roof. I'm not sure how that even works out, even if metaphors are used. So this was all in her head?

And in the other ending while she's on the boat, if that scene is meant to be taken as it is, then is the card she has real or just an illusion?

I think it's somewhat analogous to seeing your life flash before your eyes, causing a "moment of enlightenment" just before the end! Ange was seriously considering suicide, contemplating that she'd give anything, even her life/soul, if someone could just grant her wish.

Either that, or the narration is just written in the popular movie style where it shows you a scene from the end, rewinds and shows how you got there, then finishes that scene at the end of the movie.

Comparing it to the boat ending, though? I'm not 100% sure how she survived if she jumped (can't remember if she did atm), but:
If Ange picks "magic" as her answer, she's learned to trust people. She can go along with the idea of magic instead of picking apart their actions, for example. If she chooses trick, she still can't trust anyone, even her brother and Beato.

As a result, she never learns to trust the head honcho of the Ushiromiya company, he becomes suspicious of her, and it turns into a mutual destruction situation. They're so nervous about her because she's been flaunting the idea that she'll give away all the company money and ruin all the employees' jobs and lives. It makes sense a rich one would resort to murder to prevent that.
With her bodyguard, it's easy to think she's acting in self defense. The boat driver though? That's when I start to think she's turning into a paranoid cynic.