[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

[Player]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

Huh... I'd completely forgotten about that. I'd thought it had been a scene I'd accidentally skimmed through or something (has happened before), so I hadn't paid much attention to it. Either way, thanks for clearing it up. ^^'

[winter 923]

The problem i have with that is that the "power of theathergoing" is changing to a "blindly believe anything anyone says as long as i can touch them"...that creepy Will. If Kinzo just lied then Maria's and Jessica's interview aren't worth anything either.

I don't remember the wording but even with all the italians dead (except Beato) keeping the gold is still stealing it from italy away. So a guess would be that young-Genji is scolding young-Kinzo for trying to pull something big as stealing tons of gold from the italians (italy)

[musouka]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

It doesn't directly contradict what he told Will. It could only mean he was the one that put the idea into his superior's head and things spiraled from there.

[maximilianjenus]

which would eplxain why he conveniently dodged the fight; good theory

[Jan-Poo]

There is also that theory that Kinzo sabotaged the grenade so it wouldn't blow off.
If it did, all the Italian soldiers would have died and there wouldn't have been any gun fight. What woould have happened to Beatrice then? I suppose nothing good, since she knew about the gold and she would know what the Japanese did there.

It was really a "miracle".

[AuraTwilight]

It doesn't directly contradict what he told Will. It could only mean he was the one that put the idea into his superior's head and things spiraled from there.

Well, YEA, it does, because in the narrative as Kinzo told, Kinzo was against the idea. It's a small detail but it's still contradictory. Yamamoto is being portrayed as either rational and conscientious, or no better than a mobster thug.

which would eplxain why he conveniently dodged the fight; good theory

There's also the possibility, to play advocate and salvage Kinzo's innocence here, that his survival was just luck, like Beatrice did.

[delita-umw-]

How many grenades do you think are likely to have been on the base? It's an understocked base, so I can't imagine there are tons of grenades, but the mere presence of one suggests there are more, cause having an entire base with one grenade...just seems silly to me. If Kinzo really sabotaged the grenade, it suggests he also must have had a pretty big hand in the planning of the attack on the Italians.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, YEA, it does, because in the narrative as Kinzo told, Kinzo was against the idea. It's a small detail but it's still contradictory. Yamamoto is being portrayed as either rational and conscientious, or no better than a mobster thug.

I meant that it didn't mean the entire flashback was a lie. I can see a manipulative Kinzo, but I also think that ultimately it ended in a suggestion that Yamamoto eventually decided to capitalize on after thinking it over. Kinzo might have beautified his involvement, but I honestly do believe three things. One, the encounter did change his life and make him want to live. Two, he wasn't some nutjob mowing down soldiers and carrying off the girl, even if he did play things to his advantage his life was at risk. Three, he and Bice forged a genuine connection and did have a few relatively happy years together.

All three of those things are just my delusions, naturally, but I liked Kinzo as he was presented in EP7 and there's no reason to waste the time telling the tale if the entire thing as presented is a lie. Yamamoto was better than Kinzo presented him as, Kinzo was worse than he presented himself as. Those things are fine with me. Just not the entire character arc being a lie.

[AuraTwilight]

I meant that it didn't mean the entire flashback was a lie.

No one ever proposed that, though. If even one part of the story contradicts what really happened, though, then it still means "Kinzo's flashback is a fantasy."

Otherwise I entirely agree with you. It's also possible, though, that the red guts don't represent some objective truth but Beatrice's ugly opinions. Hell, the third one ("Furniture") is LITERALLY about the development of a delusion. Yasu wasn't even fucking there, how would she know what happened better than Kinzo? It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

[TW25]

If Kinzo just lied then Maria's and Jessica's interview aren't worth anything either.

That's not true.

Just because Kinzo lied about one, or even a few, details doesn't meant that you can throw out his entire story. And Jessica and Maria's stories are completely unrelated. Just because Kinzo lied doesn't mean that they did as well.

Also I don't think anyone ever gave a clear definition to Theatergoer's Authority. Did anyone ever claim that it made people tell the complete truth? I think its effect on the pieces was left ambiguous for a reason.

[AuraTwilight]

Also I don't think anyone ever gave a clear definition to Theatergoer's Authority. Did anyone ever claim that it made people tell the complete truth?

No. The only effects it seems to give is allowing people to break the 4th wall so they can testify. Jessica and Maria are able to recall stuff about Beatrice in a world where there is no Beatrice.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

I suppose we can guess she had someone investigating, but it doesn't have much support and i can't think a reason she would start to look into something like that, or how someone would find about it.

[AuraTwilight]

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

I suppose we can guess she had someone investigating, but it doesn't have much support and i can't think a reason she would start to look into something like that, or how someone would find about it.

"Hey Rudolf, I have all this gold here. I suggest to do what I say and tell me any secrets you might have. I heard you mention something about wanting to talk to Battler and Kyrie about a terrible secret? Spill it."

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

This is in episode 4 though so it's more like the Meta Beato in Hachijou's forgeries knew about Battler's birth. So I'd say some creative witch hunters were able to find out through some rough detective work and hachijou put the information in her stories. Yasu doesn't have to know this at all.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

I didn't consider that.

"Hey Rudolf, I have all this gold here. I suggest to do what I say and tell me any secrets you might have. I heard you mention something about wanting to talk to Battler and Kyrie about a terrible secret? Spill it."

But i really can't see Yasu doing something like this. And when would she ask about it? The year before? I doubt she'd want to reveal herself.

Originally Posted by Judoh

This is in episode 4 though so it's more like the Meta Beato in Hachijou's forgeries knew about Battler's birth. So I'd say some creative witch hunters were able to find out through some rough detective work and hachijou put the information in her stories. Yasu doesn't have to know this at all.

But Rudolf's secret is mentioned for the first time in Ep. 1.

Spoiler:

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

But Rudolf's secret is mentioned for the first time in Ep. 1.

And she didn't know what it was obviously or she would have answered what it was. She just knew he had one.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No one ever proposed that, though. If even one part of the story contradicts what really happened, though, then it still means "Kinzo's flashback is a fantasy."

Otherwise I entirely agree with you. It's also possible, though, that the red guts don't represent some objective truth but Beatrice's ugly opinions. Hell, the third one ("Furniture") is LITERALLY about the development of a delusion. Yasu wasn't even fucking there, how would she know what happened better than Kinzo? It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

Genetic Memory maybe?

Bern's scythe is really a magical, handheld version of the Animus machine?

[AuraTwilight]

But i really can't see Yasu doing something like this. And when would she ask about it? The year before? I doubt she'd want to reveal herself.

It's heavily implied that the First Twilight in all games is initially faked. Yasu seems to be organizing a murder mystery game to try and get Battler to solve it and thus remember her. It's part of her whole roulette thing (The actual murders would be done by someone else, taking advantage of the situation). So it's a matter of Yasu buying Rudolf's compliance with the gold and expressing curiousity in Rudolf's secrets.

Remember Episode 2, where the adults in the church said they recognized Beatrice? It certainly wasn't a fantasy scene; if Beatrice used magic we would've been shown; but we DIDN'T see what she showed them as proof. The three ingots on the table were probably used as demonstration that she was the true Head, and thus gained their compliance since her money could solve all their problems.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's heavily implied that the First Twilight in all games is initially faked. .

Is it? I don't think there is anything fake in Ep. 1-2.
Actually, i don't believe in the Fake Murder Theory. :P

Anyway, i doubt she wrote those stories the same day she was planning her roulette... or course we really don't know the content of the forgeries and if Meta-Beato is following them precisely, so it's kinda moot, i guess.