[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's not a point, that's a question. What exactly was unusual about Battler's childhood that his ideal is blonde, rather than just bouncy?

Perhaps Battler has the idea that blonde = exotic, and it's exotic that he likes rather than any particular color.

It's not all that uncommon, even today, to believe that blonde hair is incredibly commonplace in America and Europe. It's not remotely true, but it is more common than in Asia, so I guess that's the easiest way to mark somebody as an exotic foreigner. As for blondes, maybe Rudolf expressed a taste for them at some point (though his tastes seem to run to just about anything that's female).

Battler expressing the "blonde and bouncy" ideal could just mean that he wanted a fun, unusual girl with exotic features. A foreign girl in the "blonde and busty" ideal wouldn't be too far off, even if he's never really seen anything racy (he could just be seeing magazines or movies, the 70s had no shortage of blonde bombshells). The details were left to be filled in later, giving us the saucy, Italian(ish), blonde and busty Beatrice (who, alas, is apparently well and truly dead).

The actual composite of Meta-Beatrice is probably the Platonic ideal taken to the extreme for Battler's sake. For instance, I doubt "Beatrice" on the island is actually aware of the nationality of Beatrice, unless she just happens to guess. Likewise, her sass and cruelty clearly derive from somewhere else. Odds are the Piece-Beato just made an effort to look right, where "right" meant "kinda like the portrait."

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

The details were left to be filled in later, giving us the saucy, Italian(ish), blonde and busty Beatrice (who, alas, is apparently well and truly dead).

Actually, in Episode 6 Battler says something about understanding magic and being able to take Beato off the game board.

It may not wind up being a "perfect" happy end, but a future in which a jealous bro-con Ange is constantly bickering with Beato over her beloved Onii-Chan may still be in the cards.

I feel like I just want to see one canon image of Ange getting into a slapfight with Beato, or maybe pulling a Real World Spinzaku on her like she did to Virgilia at the end of the anime's Episode 3.

[Klashikari]

...not like I want to be a party pooper but...
Warning: I must remind you all that it is the thread for Episode 7. Not a thread for random chat and shipping rambling whatnot.
Please focus back to the said topic, otherwise, I'm afraid I will simply do more than simple cleaning/nuking.

Now removing the offtopic comments.

[Used Can]

Well, they are EP7 related, since Beato's sex ambiguity had never been brought up before. I don't think R07 added that bit just for the kicks and giggles... or did he? But well, I'll drop the jokes.

Anyway, I'm interested though, what's your opinion on the matter Klashikari? Have you also happened to read what do the Japanese fans think about this?

I'm honestly seriously waiting for R07's reply on the proper romanisation for 理御. That may clear up some things, unless he decides to go for some gender-neutral pronunciation like Lyon or Leone (French pronunciation).

[Klashikari]

We have yet to see the romaji of 理御, but as far as we are concerned, we decided to go along with "Lyon" as long as Ryukishi doesn't provide us some grounds to figure it out (and it has been like a week... I just hope he will answer before September, otherwise it will be troublesome for us).
Why Lyon? First and foremost, Leon doesn't make sense in the given context. Leon is strictly a male first name, yet the concerned person is ambiguous, so it is unlikely to be that.
Also, the hiragana for 理御 is りおん, not れおん. So that's pretty much the deal.

That said, "Lion" just looks bad... ok, Battler isn't anything smart either as far as "we" are concerned, but we aren't really in position to suddenly claims he is called "Batora" anyway. That being said, Lyon does "work" if we consider the western obsession, although I have no idea if Japanese would know about France's department.
We could also go with "Rion", but it doesn't have any western legacy, unless we missed something.


As for the game, I would say that Lyon is "probably" female in my eyes. The reason is that Yasuda Lyon was heavily implied as female, and I don't feel like repeating Jan-poo's arguments since I don't have any extra.
Therefore, it would be difficult for me to expect a convenient genderswap in another Kakera (which doesn't make any sense... unless you are thrown in a fanfic universe).

And no matter how I see Lyon's behaviour, it is hard to call a "he" there for me.

By the way, speaking of Lyon, I think the issue with Yasu with the wound may be... her womb.
As far as asian beliefs are, a woman is usually the "housewife" and the "mother" (well, Natsuhi is a cutting edge example of that). Because of this, it isn't rare for a woman to be extremely frustrated for being unable to bear a child at all.
Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the accident just made a huge deal with her womb.
It is either that or the chest... your usual "assets", or rather "woman identity traits" you can have.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

We have yet to see the romaji of 理御, but as far as we are concerned, we decided to go along with "Lyon" as long as Ryukishi doesn't provide us some grounds to figure it out (and it has been like a week... I just hope he will answer before September, otherwise it will be troublesome for us).
Why Lyon? First and foremost, Leon doesn't make sense in the given context. Leon is strictly a male first name, yet the concerned person is ambiguous, so it is unlikely to be that.
Also, the hiragana for 理御 is りおん, not れおん. So that's pretty much the deal.

That said, "Lion" just looks bad... ok, Battler isn't anything smart either as far as "we" are concerned, but we aren't really in position to suddenly claims he is called "Batora" anyway. That being said, Lyon does "work" if we consider the western obsession, although I have no idea if Japanese would know about France's department.
We could also go with "Rion", but it doesn't have any western legacy, unless we missed something.


As for the game, I would say that Lyon is "probably" female in my eyes. The reason is that Yasuda Lyon was heavily implied as female, and I don't feel like repeating Jan-poo's arguments since I don't have any extra.
Therefore, it would be difficult for me to expect a convenient genderswap in another Kakera (which doesn't make any sense... unless you are thrown in a fanfic universe).

And no matter how I see Lyon's behaviour, it is hard to call a "he" there for me.

By the way, speaking of Lyon, I think the issue with Yasu with the wound may be... her womb.
As far as asian beliefs are, a woman is usually the "housewife" and the "mother" (well, Natsuhi is a cutting edge example of that). Because of this, it isn't rare for a woman to be extremely frustrated for being unable to bear a child at all.
Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the accident just made a huge deal with her womb.
It is either that or the chest... your usual "assets", or rather "woman identity traits" you can have.

Yeah, it's not really too outlandish to believe that Lyon could just be a tomboyish girl, given Jessica as an example of an end product of that upbringing.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

Doesn't that sound like a certain red truth that was presented very early in the games?

If Ryukishi hadn't confirmed the Explosion accident in an interview and listed all the hints I had thought of to come to that conclusion I would agree with you on rule 18.

[ijriims]

Well, now I think about it.

SInce EP7 said this Yasu latter became Beatrice, and planned to allow the bomb to destroy everyone on the island. While the survival of Yasu pretty much was a "miracle",

Doesn't it make Bern the evil behind all already?

[EndlessMugen]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Well, now I think about it.

SInce EP7 said this Yasu latter became Beatrice, and planned to allow the bomb to destroy everyone on the island. While the survival of Yasu pretty much was a "miracle",

Doesn't it make Bern the evil behind all already?

Come now, Bern is the witch of miracles because she understands real miracles do not exist.
In reguards to the context of a story, a true miracle is the ultimate plot contrivance from an author.
A "miracle" like basic "magic" throughout the given storys of Umineko must be explainable, even if they are in fact contrived situations from the author, they must be believable from an understandably explained point of view.
A person can survive a dire situation through "dumb luck" (there are several instances of this occuring throughout Umineko), but they cannot survive due to what someone might call a true miracle.
To put it in other terms, a Miracle is a situation that can ONLY be explained through the use of "magic" or supernatural means.

[Jan-Poo]

I think we can take for granted that at the aftermath of the Rokkenjima incident a crater of 1km of diameter engulfed half of the island.

Bernkastel story was made it so to be the most convincing account on what happened on that fateful day and she made it so that even Ange would believe it.

Ange knows what is the result of that explosion, not only because the newspaper must have reported it but also because she's been there herself. At any rate the kind of damage the explosion created couldn't possibly be concealed or manipulated, it must be a known fact which Bernkastel couldn't overlook.

900 tons of explosive seems to be about the right amount of tnt or tnt equivalent that could explain such a disaster, no less than that could explain such a crater. This is almost 1 kiloton, about 1/16 of the hiroshima bomb.

However how could 900 tons of explosive be considered an unfortunate accident?
Maybe the explosion itself, but the fact that stuff was there certainly it isn't.
If such a thing was reported it would cause an uproar that would shake the whole foundation of the government of the military.
Supposing it was a leftover from a secret military (which I don't find a reasonable explanation) some head would fall for this. How can you forget 900 tons of explosive and leave them in the hands of a lunatic?
The public opinion would want a damn clear explanation and several people declaring their responsibilities. 900 tons of explosive blowing off in the district of Tokyo is not a joke.
The point here is that regardless of the existence of an evil mastermind that caused that explosion, the existence of that amount of explosive would be a crime by itself.

Therefore calling it a crime wouldn't be irresponsible at all, rather calling it an "unfortunate accident" that would be an incredibly irresponsible thing to say.

If the theory of the explosives is true then I can only conclude that the government covered up the whole story to prevent that kind of reactions.
This could be explain the "world piece" stuff Okonogi was talking about. Except it's more like "Japan piece" than anything else.

In other words, if the volcano theory is false, at the very least that incident must have been reported as a volcanic explosion. I find it difficult to see it in any other way.

[Renall]

900 tons of unexploded munitions is a gross government oversight and their sudden detonation would indeed be a major faux pas, though perhaps not rising to the level of threatening "world peace." But I think Okonogi was speaking a bit tongue in cheek there.

No doubt there had to be some kind of coverup. 900 tons of explosives isn't an "accident" even if you believe they went off accidentally.

[Jan-Poo]

I never really considered this specific situation. The idea that the government would cover up a mass murder has always been silly in my eyes so I never considered it seriously.

So because I understood the kind of damage that happened and pairing it to the fact it was reported as an unfortunate accident I could only imagine it was a volcanic explosion.

Now I see another option. The government wouldn't cover up a mass murder, but it would cover up the oversight of such huge amount of explosive. Then the volcano explosion could be just what was reported and not what actually happened.

I'm still not abandoning the volcano theory, I'm just seeing another option now. The volcano theory still has something to do with the real explanation because there isn't anything else that could cover up such an explosion and it would make sense considering we are talking about the izu islands.

So I think that regardless of the truth I can be almost certain that

-The Rokkenjima incident was reported as a Volcanic explosion. A tragic unfortunate accident. Of course Eva couldn't be considered in no way responsible of such an event.
-After the messages in the bottles were found the conspiracy theorist begun to make hypothesis on a cover up from the government. They must have theorized that it was actually an explosion generated by some kind of large bomb.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

Come now, Bern is the witch of miracles because she understands real miracles do not exist.

Leon's existence was a miracle itself as the chance of being accepted is really low that Bern had to go out to find a kakera.

Now what was the chance of a baby surviving from a fall from a cliff? And this is the chance the Umineko tale would actually happen?

I supposed Bern was so bored such that she sorted out this "Yasu surviving the fall" kakera to give birth to Beatrice so she could kill some boredom.


Actually I was just curious about Bern not knowing the truth from the beginning if she possessed the ability to go back to the past.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-The Rokkenjima incident was reported as a Volcanic explosion. A tragic unfortunate accident. Of course Eva couldn't be considered in no way responsible of such an event.
-After the messages in the bottles were found the conspiracy theorist begun to make hypothesis on a cover up from the government. They must have theorized that it was actually an explosion generated by some kind of large bomb.

Well, from the first two letters-in-the-bottle, there was no way to tell the people were killed by explosives.

And I find it strange that Okonogi's first response to Ange's question was not "Of course it could not be Eva killing others, how could Eva know a volcanic eruption was going to happen?" if the accident was portrayed as volcanic eruption.

And the police's investigation was publicized (the incident was said to catch the public's attention, even to the extent the public knew that the police discovered a letter-in-the-bottle a few days after the incident), how could only part of Maria's jaw be found if there was a volcanic eruption?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

No doubt there had to be some kind of coverup. 900 tons of explosives isn't an "accident" even if you believe they went off accidentally.

And once again, 900 tons of munitions or 900 tons of explosives?

Last year, November, an army munitions warehouse in Ulyanovsk had a fire, caused by incorrect disassembling of munitions for destruction. Not unexpectedly, the fire very quickly turned into detonations of munitions, mostly artillery shells. Some facts:

• You'd expect that it would all just go up after the first few shells blew, but nope, it kept burning for an entire day and didn't even burn down completely.
• At least six shells landed all across town, some of them quite far, some unexploded.
• Everyone who reached the bomb shelter on the territory of the warehouse itself was safely evacuated later.
• The total amount of explosives destroyed was about 120 tons. No crater. Shockwave damage, like windows blown out, was reported for about 2km away.

The army and the citizens had a field day, but the loss of life and property has been quite low for this kind of incident.

Basically, to actually make a promised crater with munitions, you really need to ensure it all goes up at once from your detonation signal. You can't wire detonators to 10% of everything and expect the rest to blow, and you can't wire detonators to everything and then expect to use it a munitions warehouse. Most of it will end up all around the area, much of it unexploded, and Kuwadorian is still likely to be smeared across the ground by the shockwave anyway. Demolition charge, no problem. Completed munitions, doubtful...

[Renall]

The public's not gonna know that, and they won't know what the explanation is. As Jan-Poo said, they could just cover it up by declaring it was some other disaster. Swamp gas, volcano, meteor impact, whatever it takes to sound plausible. The conspiracy theorists aren't going to believe it but there's no proof, so let them.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

The conspiracy theorists aren't going to believe it but there's no proof, so let them.

What I'm wondering about is what if this part of the story is not literally true.

The rationale given by narration in the Kyrie Rampage sequence for such an amount of explosives existing in the place is explosives itself -- that is, munitions, stored presumably for an expected use. Expecting to use munitions and expecting to destroy the entire amount in case of the warehouse being captured are goals which cannot coexist smoothly, but there is no problem if the explosives are actually a demolition charge intended to wipe the island as clean as possible, but not munitions.

Which implies that something exists that needed to be hidden so hard that 900 tons of explosives for it's demolition charge did not seem like overkill, and Okonogi's "world peace" may not be quite as tongue in cheek as we think.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

The public's not gonna know that, and they won't know what the explanation is. As Jan-Poo said, they could just cover it up by declaring it was some other disaster. Swamp gas, volcano, meteor impact, whatever it takes to sound plausible. The conspiracy theorists aren't going to believe it but there's no proof, so let them.

Well, if it was the same "Tokyo" from Higurashi, then I guess the whole thing could be concealed.

But personally, I think some people were forced to step down was more plausible than the government went at length to hide this.

Unless there were something more they must hide or the whole world would be disrupted.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

Come now, Bern is the witch of miracles because she understands real miracles do not exist.
In reguards to the context of a story, a true miracle is the ultimate plot contrivance from an author.
A "miracle" like basic "magic" throughout the given storys of Umineko must be explainable, even if they are in fact contrived situations from the author, they must be believable from an understandably explained point of view.
A person can survive a dire situation through "dumb luck" (there are several instances of this occuring throughout Umineko), but they cannot survive due to what someone might call a true miracle.
To put it in other terms, a Miracle is a situation that can ONLY be explained through the use of "magic" or supernatural means.

A close range gunshot missing seems like a miracle to me, even if one might call it 'dumb luck'.
My translations for ep. 7 were not the best, but what do any of you think of Bern's truth? I think that it is mostly bs, her truth doesn't really match episodes 1, 2, and 4. Because my translations were so bad I cannot be sure if I missed anything, but I think she made that game in an attempt to bring Battler back. She is obviously holding a grudge, so by using Ange she figures she can force Battler into another game to exact revenge on him. However, I am not sure if Battler will even participate in the next game or if he will just be chatting with Ange.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

A close range gunshot missing seems like a miracle to me, even if one might call it 'dumb luck'.

Now all I can think of is Eva and Battler having the divine intervention conversation from Pulp Fiction.

It could fairly be said that Eva's survival in the Tea Party was miraculous though. What I wonder is, wouldn't the cops who found her have noticed she had gunshot wounds? Even if she was just grazed, she absolutely would've had an injury. That would've proved outright that something was amiss.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

A close range gunshot missing seems like a miracle to me, even if one might call it 'dumb luck'.

Well, like the Witches explained in ''Witches' Tanabata'', for a wish to be fullfilled by a witch, it needs immense personal effort from the wisher or the wish is considered 'not strong enough'. This in the end explained for me, that witches do not have any power at all in the Umineko universe (considering they are existing beings in the franchise), they can just promise people something as long as those people never stop thriving for it...but isn't that just a very normal thing?!
When you manage to miss a bullet, it's normally perfectly explainable by several influences. Yet the person who managed to survive will call it a miracle, because he wished so hard not to be hit and then not to be hit is a sign of greater power.
The same with Lambda's fulfillment clauses. You have to keep striving towards becoming rich, if you stop doing that for a moment you're not getting rich.

Originally Posted by Renall

What I wonder is, wouldn't the cops who found her have noticed she had gunshot wounds? Even if she was just grazed, she absolutely would've had an injury. That would've proved outright that something was amiss.

If it really was a cover up action by the government or some influential people, then it would explain why something like that would never be reported.
The more I think about it the more reasonable this would make Okonogi's comments, without having to fear for some contrived Tokyo meddling, like in Higurashi. There it fit somehow, but in Umineko I would be highly dissappointed if it turned into a political thriller in the end.