Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Are you telling me a 25th Anniversary sequel that deliberately draws upon all major previous versions of the franchise doesn't qualify as a tribute? Macross Frontier is far more of a tribute than Zero, Plus or Seven was (all of which have their own unique aspects that distinguish them from the rest of the franchise even if they have certain things in common) and I think that's okay for a series that was made for the franchise's 25th anniversary.

After 25 years, that tune has become rather boring, and I don't mean to be rude with that comment.

I want to see new material. I speak as a person who considers Macross one of the steps I took into the anime world. One of the reasons I avoided other Macross' after the original was after watching Plus, I noticed the repetitiveness, and so, years later (I'd been unaware of Zero due to the U.S. being a bitch), I didn't want to enter Frontier, even though all my subscribers were addicted to it on YouTube. I was against approaching Macross again because of things I'd noticed in Plus: the repeating character attitudes, personalities, horrible music (by the time I saw it in the U.S., music in Japan had vastly improved), and the quickly resolved love triangles. The only thing that made it part of my homage was the mecha. But the repeating has been proved countless times. Even when I entered Frontier, I immediately clicked onto Sheryl being Minmei just by her attitude. I had anticipated it and still, I pushed myself to watch to see if I could find a difference, but I guess the bad parts of being a writer is being able to tell when a character has picked up traits from other characters from the past. And sadly, she not only picked up Minmei's traits but Sara's as well.

I guess, unless this changes for the 30th anniversary, I might not approach Macross again. I want to see new material. I want to see Kawamori break away from past Macross'. I want to see new characters with distinct personalities that aren't tied to their past counterparts (Hikaru, Misa, or Minmei).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he should pull a Gundam on us; just a little originality in the characters and storyline is all I'm asking for. We've all probably seen Frontier coming story-wise. Yes, new enemies, now explore them vastly, otherwise, why create a nice enemy?

[BetoJR]

Wow. She saw repetitiveness in Plus.

I have no words, anymore...

[karice67]

Just wondering, didn't anyone find anything else, ANYTHING at all, interesting about Kawamori's interview?

E.g.


(1) The suggestion that it was the production committee more so than Kawamori et al who were responsible for the movies being a retelling? (from part 4)


(2) Or the reason for the inconsistent character animation being that they were pressed for time and thus had to divvy up the animation work a lot more than usual? (from part 5)


(3) Even the 'jungle metaphor' from the last part?

In a work with many elements, if you work on the way you combine them rather than trying to cut them down in number, as long as you make the nucleus of the work clear, I feel that having more elements becomes a weapon at your disposal. Take a jungle or a coral reef for example. If I want to make just one noble and beautiful rose, adding a pine, a dandelion and a frog would just give me some strange malformation. But in a jungle, flowers of many colours bloom, all kinds of trees grow, and a variety of insects, birds and animals hide within. In other words, I prefer to make a work that is not a single, polished entity, but rather a field with great diversity, a world that you can explore via many different routes. People who like mecha can enter the jungle that way – they enjoy it by picking out all the mecha elements. People who like the characters [can go down that route.] If they come to appreciate the other elements in the course of their exploration, that’s something to be grateful for. [Basically, I’ve been able to discover the fun of making works with multiple layers.]

To me, this is the major reason behind Macross having so much rewatch value.

=======

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh, but I am (trying) I see no reason to refrain myself from any opportunity to know her at a more personal level. That is, should dear Karice ever grant me the permission and the utmost pleasure of such privilege.

But you see, Takky, you are trying to get your paws into too many cookie jars for my liking

Originally Posted by Tak

Are you referring to the performance? That would depend if it is an exclusively private one just for you?

Well, as long as I can record and share it


Hm...sometimes, I'm just amazed at what we're allowed to get away with on this sub-forum

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh alright... what else do I still owe you? I remember translating some of the interviews about the triangle a long time ago, and some others... even being blackmailed into translating an entire episode over IRC!! (or was that Cheesie's doing?) Naturally, I became weary of further commitments, seeing how I have been unfairly taken advantage of :sniff:

Waaaait...a few (portions of) interviews and one episode...and you're complaining????

Originally Posted by teelatsuki

But yeah, not done with it yet though, I have to still watch zero and the two movies and then rewatch the series and the movies and then if I feel like it probably re watch the whole franchise again.

That's what I'm doing myself. Just finished Zero (with my jaw seriously dropping at the dogfights!), and almost ready to sit down for a double-movie marathon. Maybe. Probably on the next day I have off...

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by karice67

That's what I'm doing myself. Just finished Zero (with my jaw seriously dropping at the dogfights!)

If there's one thing still not surpassed in that series, this is it. The dogfights are just glorious - Frontier had nice choreography and all, but the scenes in Zero are still top dog, IMHO.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

If there's one thing still not surpassed in that series, this is it. The dogfights are just glorious - Frontier had nice choreography and all, but the scenes in Zero are still top dog, IMHO.

it's Itano, man, it's Itano...often copied but never surpassed.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

After 25 years, that tune has become rather boring, and I don't mean to be rude with that comment.

I want to see new material. I speak as a person who considers Macross one of the steps I took into the anime world. One of the reasons I avoided other Macross' after the original was after watching Plus, I noticed the repetitiveness, and so, years later (I'd been unaware of Zero due to the U.S. being a bitch), I didn't want to enter Frontier, even though all my subscribers were addicted to it on YouTube. I was against approaching Macross again because of things I'd noticed in Plus: the repeating character attitudes, personalities, horrible music (by the time I saw it in the U.S., music in Japan had vastly improved), and the quickly resolved love triangles. The only thing that made it part of my homage was the mecha. But the repeating has been proved countless times. Even when I entered Frontier, I immediately clicked onto Sheryl being Minmei just by her attitude. I had anticipated it and still, I pushed myself to watch to see if I could find a difference, but I guess the bad parts of being a writer is being able to tell when a character has picked up traits from other characters from the past. And sadly, she not only picked up Minmei's traits but Sara's as well.

I guess, unless this changes for the 30th anniversary, I might not approach Macross again. I want to see new material. I want to see Kawamori break away from past Macross'. I want to see new characters with distinct personalities that aren't tied to their past counterparts (Hikaru, Misa, or Minmei).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he should pull a Gundam on us; just a little originality in the characters and storyline is all I'm asking for. We've all probably seen Frontier coming story-wise. Yes, new enemies, now explore them vastly, otherwise, why create a nice enemy?

me too lazy to read...lol

i think macross F may not be original...but it is a MASTERPIECE from kawamori...and have a lot of great element that even macross SDF doesnt have...

who cares about something new original..etc,,, as long as it have a great BATTLE , hot chicks, great musics....and AMAZING ANIMATION...
if kawamori want to make something new...DONT DO MACROSS...DO BASQUASH OR WHATEVER...

that is a shame...he should more focus on macross franchise...more and more..just like gundam,
now.. macross is getting more popular because of frontier... that is a great oppurtunity to raise it up to another level...to gain more fans...more money...to get more budget...
more artist, more mecha...more toys, musics, games...and everything...THAT IS WHAT A GREAT FRANCHISE SHOULD BECOME...an ENDLESS ENTERTAIMENT...FOR EVERYONE

30 ANNIVERSSARY IS A GREAT OPPURTUNINTY...TO MAKE A NEW OVA at least.....if possible more tv series....
if he can do it right...then
40 ANIVERRSSARY - MACROSS MOVIE 3D supported by PETERJACKSON & JAMES CAMERROON [just like TINTIN....it is in 3d..]...
may not be a dream...because macross already as POPULAR as GUNDAM....or TRANSFORMERS


i am afraid if kawamori is give up on continuing the macross more and more.......just because he want to make something new and original...just like basquash..>.<
then macross franchise will be forgotten...

if we continue to talkk about it...it is endless.. just like comparing persona 3 and persona 4...

so lets move on...and vote 10 on IMDB! EVERYONE...VOTE10!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566528/...94176042178586

WTFUCK....ONLY 7.6?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

That's what I'm doing myself. Just finished Zero (with my jaw seriously dropping at the dogfights!), and almost ready to sit down for a double-movie marathon. Maybe. Probably on the next day I have off...

SPEAKING OF DOGFIGHTS

I must say, the final scene involving Banana and Princess in episode 25 had the most stunning combat choreography out of every Macross ever made, the movies included. The sheer excitement that was the battle-ballade was unsurpassed by any preceding and subsequent Macross media. IMO, the VF-27 and the VF-25 remain more iconic than the later YF-29, with the VF-27 being my current favorite unit, followed by a tie of the 25 and 19.

The combat in the second movie was a slight letdown, probably because I had expected too much. After Yot revealed the spoilers before I seen the real thing, I had imagined massive fleet engagements. Okay, while there were huge fleets, there just wasn't that much ship-to-ship battle, and not much of a dogfight, either. Sadly, I enjoyed the first movie's battle scenes much more.

On PAST dogfights:

DYRL probably defined Macross dogfights. M vs. M set the foundation. Macross PLUS had beautiful combat scenes, and it was done without the use of CG!! Then ZERO blew me away, but was then utterly surpassed by Frontier.

Originally Posted by karice67

Just wondering, didn't anyone find anything else, ANYTHING at all, interesting about Kawamori's interview?

But I find you to be more interesting than his interviews...

Originally Posted by karice67

But you see, Takky, you are trying to get your paws into too many cookie jars for my liking

But them jars only have the KARICE flavor!

Originally Posted by karice67

Waaaait...a few (portions of) interviews and one episode...and you're complaining????

Oh, I don't mind translating interviews and episodes. However, in this case, I was unwillingly prostituted by Chessie and Natsu

Originally Posted by karice67

Hm...sometimes, I'm just amazed at what we're allowed to get away with on this sub-forum

And sometimes I am amazed at what you'd asked me to do... I didn't think you had it in ya

- Tak

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Not in a row, obviously. I watched every single thing back-to-back in a marathon.

Not after 25 years they don't. They call that a pattern or trolling, if you will.

Some of us have been watching and re-watching all things Macross since long before you were born... Your argument here, is like most of your other arguments. Hollow.

And unlike Gundam, Macross has had a much more mature look to it, when it comes to relationships and love triangles. Hence one of the many reasons why the older, more mature woman wins. Little moe-blobs don't win in Macross. Maybe in Gundam, or some other harem shows, but not in Macross. Thank. God.

[Alchemist007]

Interesting. I might actually watch some of those older series.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Interesting. I might must actually watch some of those older series.!!!

Fixed.

And Justin...Gundam is where moeblobs get killed, especially if they're Newtypes.

In good Gundam shows, at any rate.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And Justin...Gundam is where moeblobs get killed, especially if they're Newtypes.

In good Gundam shows, at any rate.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Maybe in Gundam, or some other harem shows, but not in Macross. Thank. God.

To be fair, many Gundams don't feature moe-loli-blobs either, at least not as serious contenders for a relationship. Except maybe the recent GUNDAM AGE, then again... everyone in that show is drawn in that particular way.

Hell, some Gundams have great romance. Gundam X, G Gundam, MS 08 Team come to mind. Others, such as Turn A (where a younger Heim lost to Queen Dianna at the end) followed by Gundam SEED (its either a psycho or the epitome of Gundam's version of authority-equals-ass kicking) even featured a triangle!

- Tak

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Tak

To be fair, many Gundams don't feature moe-loli-blobs either, at least not as serious contenders for a relationship. Except maybe the recent GUNDAM AGE, then again... everyone in that show is drawn in that particular way.

Hell, some Gundams have great romance. Gundam X, G Gundam, MS 08 Team come to mind. Others, such as Turn A (where a younger Heim lost to Queen Dianna at the end) followed by Gundam SEED (its either a psycho or the epitome of Gundam's version of authority-equals-ass kicking) even featured a triangle!

- Tak

As great as those shows were, I wouldn't put them at the same level in terms of relationships as any of the Macross series.

And I didn't say for a fact that moe-blobs won in Gundam. Hence the maybe(and in the same sentence said other type of shows like harems). Just that Macross relationships were more mature than Gundam relationships.

Now if you'll all excuse me... I am planning a completely new fuel system for my corvette(more money down the drain whoot!), and learning the process of tuning cars... Carry on until my next post in January...

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by moncikoma

i think macross F may not be original...but it is a MASTERPIECE from kawamori...and have a lot of great element that even macross SDF doesnt have...

I would hardly call Frontier a "masterpiece," a lot of movies in the U.S. are more interesting than Frontier was as a series or movie.

who cares about something new original..etc,,, as long as it have a great BATTLE , hot chicks, great musics....and AMAZING ANIMATION...

You basically sum up every reason why I hate modern society. Is that all the fuck you guys care about? I mean, seriously? That's not original, it's not new, and it gets boring over time to other people. Sure, you may want to see that, but Kawamori is thinking "what do I want to see?" Just look at the fact you do have lolis in the last two runs of Macross. If he wasn't interested in seeing a new idea be born, he wouldn't have started it.

may not be a dream.[/B]..because macross already as POPULAR as GUNDAM....or TRANSFORMERS

Gundam may be popular in Japan, but not here in the U.S. Although Transformers has jumped up in the U.S. since the release of the three live films.

i am afraid if kawamori is give up on continuing the macross more and more.......just because he want to make something new and original...just like basquash..>.<
then macross franchise will be forgotten...

Where the fuck did I say Kawamori would give up on continuing Macross!?

I said the way he talked made it sound like he wanted to try something original. And if you remember back before SDF came out, SDF was original. Macross Plus and 7 were original in terms of story but the characters were similar. All I'm saying is that Kawamori wants to try a new story, one that might take time to compose, but if you read the interview carefully, Frontier took years to compose as well. There was, after all, a five year or so break between Zero and Frontier.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Some of us have been watching and re-watching all things Macross since long before you were born... Your argument here, is like most of your other arguments. Hollow.

I'm sorry but no. I was born in 1991, so you could've only seen SDF and DYRL, even Flashback 2012; that's still the original stories for Macross.

So my argument is not hollow when I talk about Macross' that came after the original. And you act like your opinion counts for everyone by saying "my argument is mute" because I dislike the repeating. I speak for myself, but also for those who write reviews stating they disliked Frontier, Plus, and various other stories added to Macross. Nothing has ever lived up to the originality of the original and it seems that multiple people have already seen it long before Frontier came out.

And unlike Gundam, Macross has had a much more mature look to it, when it comes to relationships and love triangles.

I speak in terms of mecha when I refer to Gundam. I also wanted to see a better storyline like the original Gundam. But I do not speak in terms of love triangles or relationships when I speak of Gundam and I realize now that I should've clarified that.

[Darthtabby]

So all this complaining about "trolling" and how Macross series are apparently really repetitive basically comes down to the various series making use of some fairly general character types?

My response -mecha and music are at the core of Macross. So it makes sense that the main characters are pretty much always singers and pilots. And even if there are a some basic character types that get reused quite a bit all the main characters in the franchise are quite distinct from each other. Sheryl and Ranka may inherit Minmay's tradition but they're quite distinct characters in their own right, and Alto's no Hikaru.

Can we get back on topic now?

[magnuskn]

Yeah, I mean former Kabuki actors are totally a stereotype in Hollywood, right? Right?!?

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh, I don't mind translating interviews and episodes. However, in this case, I was unwillingly prostituted by Chessie and Natsu

- Tak

In the dress?

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

So all this complaining about "trolling" and how Macross series are apparently really repetitive basically comes down to the various series making use of some fairly general character types?

My response -mecha and music are at the core of Macross. So it makes sense that the main characters are pretty much always singers and pilots. And even if there are a some basic character types that get reused quite a bit all the main characters in the franchise are quite distinct from each other. Sheryl and Ranka may inherit Minmay's tradition but they're quite distinct characters in their own right, and Alto's no Hikaru.

Can we get back on topic now?

No, I'm not complaining about them all being singers and pilots, I'm talking about the fact that their personalities are much of the same as the originals all the time. Background change is fine, but the character should show it, and however, they don't. What I expect from Macross is characters who were born to be in the situation they end up in rather than characters that seem like they should be in a show like Shugo Chara or something, and sadly, quite a few of the recent Macross characters have come off like that. (This includes Nanase.) Realize that I speak of personality, not looks.

[erfine]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Sheryl and Ranka may inherit Minmay's tradition but they're quite distinct characters in their own right, and Alto's no Hikaru.

Y'know, if someone really really believed that Mini-me = Sheryl and Mini-me = Ranka, then wouldn't they also believe that Sheryl = Ranka? So you'd kinda sorta maybe expect them to like/dislike the two equally, no? Going on personality not looks ofc.

Transitive property ftl?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

If there's one thing still not surpassed in that series, this is it. The dogfights are just glorious - Frontier had nice choreography and all, but the scenes in Zero are still top dog, IMHO.

Obvi. Thrust vectoring owns the sky.

Originally Posted by karice67

Just wondering, didn't anyone find anything else, ANYTHING at all, interesting about Kawamori's interview?

Aww, karice, you try so hard to make us all be friends.

Originally Posted by karice67

(1) The suggestion that it was the production committee more so than Kawamori et al who were responsible for the movies being a retelling? (from part 3)

Yeah, what's that 'Intro->Development->Turn->Conclusion' thingy from? I'd swear I saw the same about the setup of the Eva rebuild movies, izzit a cultural thing?

Originally Posted by karice67

(3) Even the 'jungle metaphor' from the last part? To me, this is the major reason behind Macross having so much rewatch value.

Yeah, that was totally, like, whoa. I mean, I was readin, and I saw you wrote 'Kawamori'. And I kept readin, and I saw 'plants'. And I was like... whoa.

Kawamori.
Plants.
I mean... just...

Whoa.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Can we get back on topic now?

Yes, let's get back to discussing the second movie...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

(1) The suggestion that it was the production committee more so than Kawamori et al who were responsible for the movies being a retelling? (from part 3)

Well, that does answer the question of "What were they thinking?" when they did an immediate re-telling of Frontier after the series conclusion. So it wasn't "The series sucked, let's do it better!" but "Where's the moneyzzzzz?".

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

it's Itano, man, it's Itano...often copied but never surpassed.

And now I know why an old friend of mine went nuts with 'REMAKE PLUS, PRETTY PLEASE x inflinity' when he first saw the 2nd Zero ova way back when

Originally Posted by Tak

SPEAKING OF DOGFIGHTS

Hm...I think I know why the Zero ones really stuck with me on my rewatch last week - because it was all about the dogfights, not about trying to break some kind of control on one of the two combatants...

Though episode 25 - true true - I still pull that episode out for a rewatch from time to time, mostly for the action

Originally Posted by Tak

But them jars only have the KARICE flavor!

Why do I find this so hard to believe?
And I'm not some kind of food!!

cheesie!! Nat!! I think Takky still has far too much time on his hands!!

Originally Posted by erfine

Aww, karice, you try so hard to make us all be friends.

I just really really REALLY want to talk about something more interesting than all the circular arguments that someone keeps dragging people into!

Originally Posted by erfine

Yeah, what's that 'Intro->Development->Turn->Conclusion' thingy from? I'd swear I saw the same about the setup of the Eva rebuild movies, izzit a cultural thing?

Funnily enough, I had that question from someone else a couple of weeks back too. The 'Intro=>Development=>Turn=>Conclusion' one is 起承転結 (ki-shou-ten-kentsu), apparently related to the structure of certain Chinese poetry, whilst the Eva one is 序破急 (jo-ha-kyuu, meaning ~'opening, middle, climax'), which is related to traditional Japanese performances. But I'm not particularly clear on how they are used, so I'll have to look further when I can find the time

Originally Posted by erfine

Yeah, that was totally, like, whoa. I mean, I was readin, and I saw you wrote 'Kawamori'. And I kept readin, and I saw 'plants'. And I was like... whoa.

Kawamori.
Plants.
I mean... just...

Whoa.

Suppose I should have expected that, huh?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, that does answer the question of "What were they thinking?" when they did an immediate re-telling of Frontier after the series conclusion. So it wasn't "The series sucked, let's do it better!" but "Where's the moneyzzzzz?".

But well, this wasn't exactly Kawamori et al's doing now, was it?