2009-10-23, 11:55 | Link #841 | |
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I agree Kyon should loose a bit, however, during the movie, Haruhi say so much absurds that he is inclined to cut everything she says, no matter what it is. In that movie, the main problem is Haruhi had too much ideas, even if some are good ideas, in the end, they just become bad as well. Seeing the final product, he is not reall wrong. Sure, if he did actually something else then complain (like, doing some suggestions), the movie would might be better, but I don't relly blame him there, specially because Haruhi was in her worse at time. If there is some unfair complains, I believe it would be the baseball game. There was no need to him to activelly try to undermine the game. I stil don't see how Kyon ignore Nagato most of the time. He really do that some times, but he really try to pay attention on her when he can, specially after Disappearance. He is pretty much the onl one who pay attention on her. |
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2009-10-23, 11:58 | Link #842 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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The thing with Kyon, by my reckoning, is that short of the (frequent) extreme circumstances where his back's really put to the wall and the SOS Brigade is truly in danger, he's just a completely average High School student. I mean completely, even as regards personality.
He is capable of exceptional resilience, kindness, self-sacrifice and understanding...but these things only ever manifest when he's forced to admit the stakes are too high to give anything less than his best. This is pretty common in reality: many people have far more nobility in them than they usually think or act with unless they have to. Otherwise, such people like Kyon tend to gravitate towards an average level of maturity and strength. For High School, this means he gravitates towards being a bit of a jerk most of the time. I don't think poorly of Kyon for it, that he's able to call upon his better nature when need be is actually more than I'd ask/expect of someone his age, and if he were some bleeding heart hero type, the story would be far more cliche.
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2009-10-23, 12:22 | Link #843 | ||||
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Let's say that Kyon was actively supportive of Haruhi and her ideas except when they're totally indefensible. Then, when he does go strongly against her, Haruhi would notice it that much more. It would stand out to her more. As is, though, Haruhi rarely gives Kyon's complaints a second thought... precisely because he makes so many of them, imo. It's a concept known as "picking your battles". In fairness to Kyon, though, part of the problem is that the other three never say anything against Haruhi. So, I suspect that Kyon feels like he has the obligation to be the constant voice of moderation and counter-point to Haruhi. Quote:
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If Kyon was a bleeding heart hero type, the very way he treats others would be a positive example to Haruhi. As is... if Kyon treats T & K and Koizumi like trash then why should Haruhi listen to Kyon's criticisms of how Haruhi treats Mikuru? Bleeding heart hero types are overly maligned, imo. There's a reason why Superman and Spiderman are so popular. Heck, Goku and Sailor Moon and Nanoha are arguably bleeding heart hero types as well, and they're quite popular as well. ... Not to say that Kyon isn't a good character. But I don't think that we should automatically consider alternative possibilities to be worse just because they're alternative possibilities. Edit: In fairness, though, I will say that Kyon's personality probably provides the Haruhi franchise with better comedy. It comes at a price, though. The question is if the trade-off is worth it. I'm not always certain, myself.
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2009-10-23, 12:38 | Link #844 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Ah, I'm not saying idealistic, purely noble heroes are bad. And I'd also agree with you that Kyon being more pure would make him a starker foil to Haruhi certainly. I don't know about 'stronger' unless you mean 'more opposed to'.
However, part of the pleasure I personally take in the story is that he doesn't balance her out perfectly as is typical of fiction. Sure, he offsets her in some ways, but he's also right there standing in a lot the same muck as her, too. It's actually more believable for two people to grow together if they start off sharing some qualities. The character dynamics are by no means perfect, but they are relatively fresh, which is just as valuable to me.
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2009-10-23, 13:15 | Link #845 |
Kneel Before Your King!
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"Michiru" got on Kyon's case for asking a favor from Nagato only to dump her off at the library in Volume 7 so he could go play around with future girl, and even earlier than that, he treated the human one pretty much the same way, only with alt!Haruhi, and it didn't involve a favor.
Also, the fact that he didn't even realize she was missing in Volume 9 until someone else pointed it out seems to say that these aren't just isolated events, and that he only pays attention to Nagato when it's actually relevant to his current interests. I'd hardly consider any of Haruhi's behavior to be "ignoring" Nagato, especially given the fact that Haruhi was the "someone else" I mentioned earlier(heck, Kaisos actively complains about the whole protective thing she develops towards Nagato after Volume 4). In addition, Koizumi regularly defers to Nagato, and I've already mentioned the thing with "Michiru" in Volume 7.
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2009-10-23, 15:03 | Link #846 | |||
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More broadly, I'd agree with you about Kyon's behavior towards Taniguchi and Kunikida (the rudeness can get rather stunning), somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with his attitude towards Koizumi (there's rudeness, but for all his complaining, Kyon almost always listens to Koizumi's theories), disagree w.r.t. Mikuru (the last story of Volume 6 was about as nice as Kyon has been to anyone), and really disagree with regards to Yuki (if someone transported me into an alternate reality of their own making without informing me first, my reaction towards that individual would make Kyon's reactions to Yuki seem inhumanly loving and compassionate). Which brings me to... Quote:
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I agree that bleeding heart heroes can be good, but keep in mind that The Punisher, Wolverine, and Rorschach have done quite well for themselves, and the hero who's probably the most popular right now, Batman, sometimes is cold and aloof (though it depends on the writer). Last edited by Bionicman; 2009-10-23 at 15:39. |
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2009-10-23, 15:25 | Link #847 | |||||
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This re-imagining of Kyon is an intriguing one to me, to be certain. Truthfully, though, my preference (especially within a KyonHaruhi romance) is actually for Kyon to become more like Haruhi; not less like her. Either way, though, I'd like for him to eventfully loosen up a bit, and more readily admit to himself (and to Haruhi) that he actually finds most of the SOS Brigade activity kind of fun. He probably shouldn't lose his snarky edge entirely, but it would be good if he toned it down a bit, or if it became more like playful ribbing than serious frustration. Quote:
Your approach, Ricky, is a better one, imo. I can see where you're coming from on it. You are right in how there's nothing quite like the Kyon/Haruhi relationship dynamic anywhere else in fiction (to the best of my knowledge). So, yes, that is a strength, I will admit. Quote:
So, I certainly see your point here as well. Quote:
Besides, it's not as though a witch with a cat familiar is any less cliche than the evil alien invader... Quote:
Back in 06 I think that smart and snarky Kyon worked quite nicely because, well, he was generally presented as genuinely smart. E8 blew that out of the water completely, however... The difference between a beloved witty character and a disliked jerk character is often just one thing: overall competency. This is why I hope that the Disappearance movie portrays Kyon with as much of his internal narration as possible, because it'll make him seem quite competent to his credit. With out it, he's going to come off as impulsive and reckless, I fear.
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2009-10-23, 15:43 | Link #848 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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You just nailed why I (and millions of others) continue to follow the trials of one Gregory House. I suspect my view of Kyon is affected by the fact that I became a fan of House slightly before watching this show, and Kyon at his snarkiest/rudest = House on a good day.
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2009-10-23, 18:33 | Link #849 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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He is a lot like Haruhi. He's just become rather cynical due to stuff that happened to him in middle school... again, read the later books. Quote:
(Sure, he could have just asked Nagato for some hints, but I don't think he really wanted to bother her at that point, given how obviously screwed up she was by it...) To be honest I was surprised he ever figured it out at all. |
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2009-10-23, 18:58 | Link #850 | |||||
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I agree he should think a bit more about it, tough. It would, at last, make his complains more credible. Quote:
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The first one was when he was busy thinking in solve Mikuru's problem, he also mentioned he was exhausted for being obliged to do Haruhi's extra-work (more then usual) and having to deal with "Michiru". This time was his fault to not paying enough attention, but not that grave. Book 9 was the worse, I agree. Even tough being a non-presence in the club room beeing one of her main traits, he really should have noticed sooner. However, these two things shouldn't overshadow all the other times he actually pay attention on her. He noticed how bored she was in EE (even before know what was happening). He noticed how fun she was having at Day of Sagitarius and even change his mind about loosing the game because of her. He was a jerk with alter-Yuki, but becomes really protective to the real Yuki at Disappearance (arguebly his most awesome momment). After Disappearance he payed so much attention on Yuki that made Haruhi jelous. He also tryed to get Yuki on a date (most Haruhi doing, but he becomes really angry when discovered it was a misunderstand) and tryed to peek at Yuki story at Editor in Chief (he did try the same with Mikuru? I don't remember). In the end, I count 3 times Kyon failed to pay enough attention. All these times he was too much busy thinking in something else for a change. You must remember Kyon is not her father nor her boyfriend (yet?). He has no obligation to care for her, but he genuinely does as much as he can. I am sure he would try to act differently if he had the chance. Quote:
However, neither them are so close to Yuki as Kyon. Haruhi certanly likes Yuki a lot, but it is Kyon who know what is really happening and knows what can or can't hurt her. Mukiri seens to understand Yuki's crush on Kyon, but is the latter who try to face and understand all the other emotions (unlike Mikuru, who mostly just flee from Yuki). I was, indeed, wrong when saying Kyon is the only one who do not ignore Yuki (it was a hiperbole to avoid extra writing), but he is the one who do it less, not more. |
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2009-10-23, 19:03 | Link #851 | |
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For what it's worth, I do see some similarities between Haruhi and Kyon. Sighs, actually, is where this came out a bit for me. Anyway, due to what is perhaps fair criticism of me for not having done so yet... I intend to read through the first eight novels at least. What I've heard of nine is not encouraging, but I might read it as well.
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2009-10-23, 19:09 | Link #852 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I quite enjoyed it... it's just not finished... |
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2009-10-23, 19:13 | Link #853 | |
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Back to topic: Let's hope the last novel will become epic.
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2009-10-23, 19:14 | Link #854 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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That article was posted months ago, the first E8 DVD didn't do that bad sales-wise, and there is no indication outside of baseless rumors that Vol. 10 will be the final book.
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2009-10-23, 19:34 | Link #855 | |||
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I don't mind a cliffhanger aspect. However, it also involves a lot of new important characters, so I'll probably read it anyway. Quote:
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There's no particular reason to make Number 10 the last, and in fact, making it the last would mean either an awful rush job or leaving a lot of hanging plot threads.... or going with a deus ex machina ending so contrived that it would likely create an otaku hate-fest that would put E8 to shame... My current guess would be 12 or 13 novels.
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2009-10-23, 19:42 | Link #857 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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And yeah, it introduces and expands upon several interesting characters, including someone pretty important to Kyon, so it's definitely a must-read. Quote:
Just nowhere near the first season sales, but that's not surprising. They're banking on the Disappearance DVDs if you ask me. Even then, the way high school stories are set up tend to have them ending with the end of the school year... so if they want to end with Kyon and Haruhi's second year I can see 16-ish books total. Even then I'd like to see the series go on throughout all of Kyon's high school life... but that's me. |
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2009-10-23, 19:49 | Link #858 |
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Yeah though it would probably end with something like: "I am John Smith" or confessions (would take a long time).
And the Epilogue (15 years later).... they'll end up married or something. After that big delay (I was hoping they would continue it... but I'm not hopefully at all for a continuation cause of that delay.)
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2009-10-23, 20:07 | Link #859 | ||||
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So, going by the pace of 9 novels per 12 months of in-canon-time-passing... if that pace continues, and we go all the way to Mikuru's graduation, we're looking at 16 to 18 novels. I could see Tanigawa getting tired, however, and rushing it a bit. I hope not, though. Still, he's a good writer and artist, and I don't see him rushing the novels to the point of ruining the story by overly rushing it. So... at least 12, probably more, I think. Quote:
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2009-10-23, 20:11 | Link #860 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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My problem with this is that we wouldn't get to see all the crazy things that happen in that year, and that the plot in Haruhi is relatively slow to develop... |
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