Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

- However, that scene was also interesting because of how Homura explained things. If only she had done that sooner. "I don't care if you believe..." but with tears in her eyes. Goddamn girl, if you had just taken this route earlier, so much could have been avoided.

Except it wouldn't have. The entire ending basically showed that had Madoka not gone through everything that happened this timeline. She would not have been able to make the correct wish to accomplish this.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

To be shown on Good Friday, bearing the same message Good Friday gives us... I still can't believe this. It was as if the ending was made for this day.

It is all QB's plan.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

To be shown on Good Friday, bearing the same message Good Friday gives us... I still can't believe this. It was as if the ending was made for this day.

Quoting bluemist:

On Good Friday our dear Lady and Savior sacrificed herself for the good of all mahoushoujokind around 3AM. Remember this day.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Xacual

Except it wouldn't have. The entire ending basically showed that had Madoka not gone through everything that happened this timeline. She would not have been able to make the correct wish to accomplish this.

We don't know that. We only know that making the "correct" wish was dependent upon having the right information... information that Homura had but didn't share. Actually, even worse is that she barely tried, just once, kinda, in another timeline.

And then promptly gave up, not even thinking, "Hmm, maybe if I try to explain this differently... naw, I'll just try to handle Walpurgis all by myself even though I've never been able to handle it alone before, and somehow hope that Madoka doesn't contract in one of those times I'm not watching her."

Then again, maybe she's got Madoka bugged and is stalking her 24/7, heh.

[estdesoda]

Spoiler for Those new (?) characters who showed up in 11..:

There were 4 females. Joan of Arc and Cleopatra were pretty obvious, the question is who the other two are..

I suspect that the first girl showing up (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../PastMG_01.jpg) is Helen of Troy. She is clearly European, and I kind of guessed that this person is older than Cleopatra (69 BC ~ 30 BC), as she was showned after the pre-historical images but before Cleopatra. Helen of Troy is the first tragical female figure who I could think of that is famous enough and is older than Cleopatra.

The second person was clearly Cleopatra. The third one is a big question. She is clearly Japanese, and seems to be somehow associated with fire. Some suggested Himiko, a Japanese queen who was supposedly to have lived from the year of 158 to the year of 246. Existing records says that she became the ruler of Japan at the age of 17, by the usage of supernatural power, which would fit with the magical-girl scenario. Problem is, well, Himiko lived to 90 years old, and had no records of being burned to death or anything like that..

The forth one is clearly Joan of Arc (1412~1431). She had testified that she experienced her first vision around 1424 at the age of 12...and I suppose QB would happily contract with a 12 year girl, wouldn't he?

Some random thoughs about the ep.11 new(?) characters.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're disqualifying one wish because it has two components, while giving another wish a pass because it has two components. We'll have to wait for the subs to see the exact wording, but Madoka did gain two things:

1. No more witches
2. Revival of previously dead magical girls

And possibly #3: make previous magical girls normal again. I thought I read somewhere that Sayaka was given a choice by Goddess Madoka to be an MG or not, and she decided to be one again, keeping Kamijou's hand healed. I'm fuzzy on the details, though, so will need to wait for subs clarification. But if this is true, Madoka had ample opportunity to make up a system where people wouldn't turn into witches or disappear.

This is why you should stop listening to rumors.

Spoiler:

Point 2 and 3 are false

Madoka can not revive anyone directly. What happened is a new timeline was created because of the butterfly effect of people not becoming witches. No witches = no magical girls dying from witches. So she can't selectively go out and say, rise from your grave! Because the dice is rolled once more, they get another chance, but that's it.
Sayaka still got herself killed.

Madoka also can not undo contracts. What she can do is make people not regret their wish and curse the world with their last breath. What she asked Sayaka is if healing Kyousuke what she really wanted.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that Homura said that you can not revive a dead person or undo a contract with magic

[Sageblink]

That was a hell of an ending.

That is what Mai-HIME should have get.
Well... Sort of. I liked Mai-HIME but Madoka...
Oh gosh... It's pretty simple : it's now my favorite.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by taofd

Wha... wha... what is this!?

This was posted 3-11-11 o_O?

I started it on March 11. The self-insert / critical review chapter was just added today.

Or maybe I really am a Magical Girl and I'm from a timeline where Madoka ended over a month ago.

Anyway, if you want something that's actually kind of weird, consider the fact that I posted http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6662929/1/Canned_Pineapple three days before episode 3 aired in Japan (and I didn't even pick the show up until episode 6-ish), and then look at http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Madokapine.jpg

[RadiantBeam]

Bah. I am searching for subs for episode 11 because they seem to be out, but I can't find any. I guess it's still too soon for it to be subbed, and I'm wary of watching it raw since I don't understand Japanese very well.

[Kaijo]

There is a subtitle file available for episode 11. I merely downloaded a raw in .mkv format and appended the subtitle file to it. It's easy to do, with VLC media player. Course, you have to know where to get the subtitle file, which I don't think I can share in a public manner in this post, heh.

[gecd]

I thought why should not talk about fansub here?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Don't put words into other people's mouths. Expectations are always subjective, and the execution isn't all flawless otherwise there wouldn't be any debate over the ending.

To brand disappointed fans that they were expecting a despair ending is a gross and irrelevant overgeneralization.

of course I know
that's sarcasm dude
my point is in 2nd sentence

[Helmet-kun]

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Sayaka still got herself killed.

My heart has now dried and shriveled up and is going to disappear out of despair- because honest to god, I honestly wanted Sayaka to live.

SAYAKA. YOU IDIOT.

But then again, I was pulling for the Sayaka/Kyouko pairing, so maybe my despair is self-inflicted. I know it's a fandom pairing but...Jeez. I wanted a little hope there.

[Kaijo]

It makes for an interesting data point. People were talking about selfishness and selflessness awhile ago, with respect to Sayaka's wish. The idea that she was selfish, came from the idea that she only wished Kamijou's hand healed because she wanted a chance with him. I was one of the ones that argued that she gave up almost her entire life to heal his hand so he could have a chance at happiness, no matter how much it might hurt her.

So, here we are again, and she chooses to die to keep his hand healed. If she truly were selfish, she might choose not to do that in order to still have a chance with him. "If I can't be with him, then I won't heal his hand" kind of thing.

So while it might seem idiotic from one angle, I'd have to say it was fairly noble from another angle. While I personally don't believe in true altruism, believing instead that every decision and act has a selfish component, even I have to admit that's as pretty damn selfless as you're going to get.

We can argue that giving up your life so that someone's hand can be healed, might be stupid. But from one point of view, Kamijou saw his life as over because he couldn't do what he loved. She may very well have died to save his life.

Although, given her sacrifices in the show, I really wanted a better end for her, to see her end up with Kamijou. But, too much author meddling means she's doomed.

[Hagoshod]

On the subject of My HiME's deus ex machina ending vs. Madoka's deus ex machina ending:

Spoiler:

My HiME's DEM doesn't deserve the bad rep it gets. It was a measure that retconned an earlier DEM that never should have happened. The final episode is literally an apology from the writers for the completely unneeded and unasked for "tragedy" storyline that made up the previous eight episodes. I like how everyone complains about a mysterious mystical being causing all of the characters to nonsensically act happy and friendly to each other, but PRAISES the series when a MYSTERIOUS MYSTICAL BEING derailed their original personalities (you know, when they were using TEAMWORK to deal with the previous enemy) and made them nonsensically start acting psychotic and paranoid to each other in the first place.

In My HiME's anime incarnation, Searrs should have been the final villains, and they were going to be until they were abruptly turned into a complete joke and lost in a squash match in a single episode. That's why ending doesn't hurt the story. It actually repairs the damage that was done when the characters suddenly started like complete idiots for no reason beyond tragedy wouldn't occur if they had continued to act in-character.

With Madoka, the story is a legitimate tragedy. The show shifts genres when Mami gets killed, but cast and setting never change. The characters have consistent flaws and have a reason for their dreary personalities. Madoka suddenly having limitless God powers when there are much more reasonable, much more logical ways for Homura to complete her mission hurts the story. The whole "Oh, but Madoka becomes stronger in each iteration" gimmick makes absolutely no sense even without the story's logic. It comes out of nowhere, it only effects her for no reason whatsoever, it COMPLETELY contradicts the "Magic/Miracles/Shortcuts are bad" motif that stuck for the ENTIRE SHOW, and it's literally just a shoed-in excuse that pops up at the last minute to get this "Everyone's happy and Witch don't exist YAY" ending.

[tsunade666]

I think she wants to hear Kamijou play music again that's why the scene was when they are watching him play his violin. And I think she also wish for his happiness and also her friend happiness though she was crying when madoka and sayaka are living. And by a small time when the curtain move at least Kamijou did mention/remember sayaka thought that's all for that part.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Everyone's happy and Magical Girls don't exist YAY" ending.

Ok,I havn't watched with subs yet but that doesn't really seem like the ending to me,not for Homura at least,unless you considerer having to live a lonely life dedicated to fighting monsters "happy".

Then Sayaka still sacrificed herself for Kamijou,and Madoka's been forgotten by nearly everyone.

edit:and wait,MG do still exist in the end so I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from

[Hagoshod]

Spoiler:

The whole idea of Madoka traveling through SPACE AND TIIIIIIIME to bring salvation to every Magical Girl in history certainly seemed overly happy and fluffy to me.

Replacing "Magical Girls" with "Witches" would probably work better.

[DasDingus]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Spoiler for Madoka Ending:

With Madoka, the story is a legitimate tragedy. The show shifts genres when Mami gets killed, but cast and setting never change. The characters have consistent flaws and have a reason for their dreary personalities. Madoka suddenly having limitless God powers when there are much more reasonable, much more logical ways for Homura to complete her mission hurts the story. The whole "Oh, but Madoka becomes stronger in each iteration" gimmick makes absolutely no sense even without the story's logic. It comes out of nowhere, it only effects her for no reason whatsoever, and it's literally just a shoed-in excuse that pops up at the last minute to get this "Everyone's happy and Magical Girls don't exist YAY" ending.

Spoiler for Response:

I don't get why you're saying Madoka's increasing power makes no sense. We saw in episode 10 that she was gaining power through each iteration. In episode 11 Kyubey concludes that this increase in power was due to Madoka's karmic debt as the suffering Homura goes through for her increases in each iteration. It seems like the only thing you have to accept at this point is that karmic debt increases magical power, which compared to some of the other stuff in this show is a relatively small pill to swallow. You say it comes out of nowhere but it was hinted at by Kyubey talking about how powerful Madoka could be as well as the events of episode 10. The reason it only affects Madoka is because Homura's seemingly infinite time loop was being made for Madoka's sake so Madoka was the one who had to bear the karmic debt. Kyubey nevere made this connection because it wasn't until episode 11 that he realized what was going on with Homura and was able to connect those two pieces of information to explain why Madoka was so powerful. Given all that I fail to see how this is a shoed-in excuse that pops up at the last minute.

Spoiler for Events of ep12:

I didn't see any examination of this in the thread although I haven't read the entire thing. Is it confirmed that, under the new system, once magical girls use up the energy in their soul gem they immediately die? From the montage of Madoka going back and healing witches in the past it looked like she was removing the soul gem and turning them back into normal girls. Kyubey then says that once a soul gem is used up it disappears rather than becoming this witch thing Homura claims used to exist. My question would be does the soul gem disappearing mean that magical girls die at that point or just return to being normal girls?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Spoiler:

The whole idea of Madoka traveling through SPACE AND TIIIIIIIME to bring salvation to every Magical Girl in history certainly seemed overly happy and fluffy to me.

Spoiler for end:

unless I understood this wrong,the girls from the past dying (or "disapearing") instead of becoming witches doesn't seem like a whole lot happier and fluffier to me

[zeniselv]

Spoiler for Events of ep12:

My question would be does the soul gem disappearing mean that magical girls die at that point or just return to being normal girls?

[/QUOTE]

sayaka´s demise states that they die.