Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by elfboy

Well, if Birler is such a Minmei-otaku... wouldn't he satisfy his immediate need with "robot Minmeis" instead of model trains until he finds the real Minmei?

I hope they do give him an expanded role in the movie so he can explain his quest for Fold Quartz & his 'love' for Minmei -- and other than 'intergalactic space/time control device' what Fold Quartz can really do (giant compass pointing to where Minmei (who must have swallowed a battleship load of the stuff so it can be traced) is?)

What happened to Minmei btw? And gods, she must be an obaasan by now.

minmay travelled along with hikaru and misa on the megaroad.

[Fran~]

Gosh... a perfect ten for "Shipping Wars - Macross Frontier version"... a show itself

For the show... well it's Macross trademark, with homages for almost all epic moments of the previous series. I will focused just in this example:

Alto= Hikaru (the indecisive one)+ Isamu (the SkyTARD) + Basara (Performer) + Shin (Soldier)

Along the show you can see everyone of those characters at alto's scenes, Hikaru's moments when Alto was with Sheryl/Ranka, Isamu's moments when Alto speak about the sky and fly (even the homage when Klan and Luka bring him his VF-25 and Alto makes the Isamu's movements with his hand), the Basara artistic side and the "Shin Side" when he acted like a military fullfiling his military duties.

The Love Triangle is ok... predictable, maybe i, as a Sheryl Shipper, see an inclination to her, but his "Isamu's side" is dominating him, same way Sharon Apple gave Isamu his "Sky" for a moment.

I Think is a good homage... the music, the mechas, the love, the action... is all there... and is the classic what you can expect from Macross Universe.

For the complains, well you cant never get the full package, there is always something that bothers. In TTGL was Nia's Death and the whole sequence of the very beginning of episode 1, etc...

I would love another series focusing on Misa, Hikaru and Minmei, the Birlas ring's pic could lead us to think in Kawamori completing the circle.

Still, to me there isnt Macross like Plus... but MF is a very good show...

regards.

[forgottendiary]

Just finished watching ep 25 full length version in bluray. I thought I was prepared for the eye candy, but hell I wasn't! My heart was racing like mad throughout I almost wanted to cry at the beauty of the animation. Of course, the ending is still as shitty as in the TV series, so I still wouldn't give it a 10/10.

There's some new footage/sequences as well, rather made some of the sequences longer. The Nanase part was a letdown (not that I care anyway), she just opened her eyes a little longer and you can see Luca's shadow on her face. That's it really.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by forgottendiary

The Nanase part was a letdown (not that I care anyway)...

YOU DIE! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!!!

(j/k. But see? I can be passionate about Frontier girls, too! )

[forgottendiary]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

YOU DIE! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!!!

(j/k. But see? I can be passionate about Frontier girls, too! )

Ooops...I forgot you were a Nanase fanboy! Hold on, lemme upload some comparison pics. XD

EDIT: Alright, here they are.

1) The part before Ranka sings "Anata no Oto".

In the non-bluray version, you see Cathy after the quarter is hit by the Vajra queen/Grace:

Spoiler for for size:

Right after that, you see Alto's Battroid floating in space:

Spoiler for for size:

In the bluray version, there is an added sequence of fighting/explosions after Cathy:

Spoiler for for size:

2) Alto hearing Ranka sing "Anato no Oto".

In the non-bluray version, Alto's Battroid is still floating and then we are taken into the cockpit where Alto opens his eyes:

Spoiler for for size:

Now in the bluray version, Alto's Battroid is floating in space as well, but notice the explosion behind him. The sequence with him opening his eyes is also lengthened.

Spoiler for for size:

3) Finally, we come to Nanase.

In the non-bluray version, we simply see Nanase opening her eyes to Luca:

Spoiler for for size:

In the bluray version, she opens her eyes, quivers a little and then looks towards Luca:

Spoiler for for size:

So yea, these were the changes I spotted. If you've seen it and found others, feel free to post 'em.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by forgottendiary

Ooops...I forgot you were a Nanase fanboy! Hold on, lemme upload some comparison pics. XD

If you do, I'll salute you, but really...THIS is the only Nanase pic anyone really needs:

Spoiler for Semi-Unsafe for Work:

[forgottendiary]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

If you do, I'll salute you, but really...THIS is the only Nanase pic anyone really needs:

Spoiler for Semi-Unsafe for Work:

Lol! Deed is done. XD

[Proto]

Geez, this apparently was the episode where the director realized he had run out of episodes and had to bring things to and end. The overall plot ending ideas were all good, I really think they were moving in the right direction. However, they lacked time to develop. This would have been such a powerful series on the plot side had they had some 5 or 6, fully plot dedicated episodes in order to fully develop all the ongoing threads. (heck, even 3 or 4 if they want to push it...) On that sense I think that Macross F is one of the biggest examples of wasted potential I have seen in a Mecha series.

Forgetting for a moment the pacing issues, the final battle was a little lacking on whatever tactics or strategy intentions the series might have had, but the choreography, sound and visuals were even better than usual. From a purely aesthetic POV, Macross F is probably the best mecha series I've seen in that respect. It makes me want to check out the other works the animation theme and song writer has done. The technical theme behind the series franly really surpassed my expectations time and time again. For a sound and music oriented person like me, I think this aspect was specially important to me.

However, sadly, not all is good. On the characters side, the whole series is a mixed bag, with more negative elements than good ones. The series tried too hard to please both Ranka and sheryl fans, and as a result character interaction suffered badly from this ambivalence. Of special mention is Alto, who, despite being a very hateable character, I have come to see that during the first half he was a very strongly defined individual. During the second half I noticed that his outburst were reduced to a minimum, so I at the start I thought it was all for the greater good... until I realize that what the producers were actually trying to do was giving him the VN protagonist treatment. Removing any strong characterization he has and reducing him to an empty mold so that the viewer can more easily emphatize with him. And that is the. one. thing. that I hate the most about VN and many Japanese series protagonists in general. I think this was a very wrong move on the part of the script writers, because as a result any development Alto had as a character was lost, all his personal issues with his family were left untreated and he was reduced to a proxy so that both Sheryl and Ranka fans could project their fantasies... *shivers*

On the Ranka side, I quite like what they did with her character, as an individual and outside of her relationship with Alto. Her story part of the plot didn't suffered as mcuh from the final rush, so maybe if they had given her another episode her character would have been brought to a good close.

The Sheryl side on the other hand got the short end of the stick. Unfortunately the scriptwriters forwent a much more powerful development and exploration she might have had about her past, and didn't got much screentime beyond her resolution to get back to the singing stage. The producers thought the viewers would want to see her dere dere side than to see something more solid I guess.


In the end, as we can see, Macross F is a mixed bag. It is probably one of the better recent Mecha series out there, but sadly that is not saying much from my POV. It had a lot of potential, but it went to waste in the end. It is still a series I would recommend to my not so anime-savvy shounen-lovers friends out there, and for people who appreciate the aesthetic of anime it is a fest to our eyes and ears... but beyond that... I guess I got what I deserved when I got my expectations way too high...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Proto

Geez, this apparently was the episode where the director realized he had run out of episodes and had to bring things to and end. The overall plot ending ideas were all good, I really think they were moving in the right direction. However, they lacked time to develop. This would have been such a powerful series on the plot side had they had some 5 or 6, heck even fully plot dedicated episodes in order to fully develop all the ongoing threads. (heck, even 3 or 4 if they want to push it...) On that sense I think that Macross F is one of the biggest examples of wasted potential I have seen in a Mecha series.

While I love Frontier, and it's my favorite anime TV show of the last 5-6 years, I do agree with most of your points. I think that where we differ is that I never had much love for the plot, and I don't think that more emphasis on it would have made Frontier into a better show.

Originally Posted by Proto

In the end, as we can see, Macross F is a mixed bag. It is probably one of the better recent Mecha series out there, but sadly that is not saying much from my POV. It had a lot of potential, but it went to waste in the end.

I agree with you in all respects with exception to Frontier being a waste. There is a lot of lost potential, but most of that was sealed the moment when the creators decided to go with a conspiracy plot. The main draws to Frontier should have been the characters, the way the setting functions with its various elements, and creative combat choreography. Conspiracy plots go a long way towards sabotaging all of those elements, so it's hard to fathom why the creators decided to use one. This is such a common failing with mecha shows (and pseudomecha shows) nowadays that almost all of them fail to live up to their potential.

[Proto]

Hmm... well, maybe it's just a difference in how we see things. Personally I think that while the characters were interesting, the whole approach to the triangle romance thing was wrong on so many levels that it'd need a complete overhaul for it to actually be a character development resource instead of the whole deterrent it ended up being. Because of this I never had much care for the character interactions in the series, and only found their individual stories, and how they interweaved it with the overall plot interesting.

On the plot side, as I mentioned it was either a problem of pacing or of insufficient episodes. Personally I've always considered the epic scale of space opera's to be a very good vehicle for complicated and a grandiloquent style of plots, similar to what we found even on character centric series the Crest of the Stars trilogy, or the mother of it all, Legend of the Galactic Heroes. As such, maybe I'm the one predisposed to expect a focus on the plot section of the series, and as a result it was the aspect that paid the most attention to. And as I said I think they had the right ideas... too bad it didn't bear fruit. But from my POV, rather than it just being because they decided to put a conspirancy out of nowhere, it's because they lacked the time to give it a proper face and development. Again, pacing issues.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... well, maybe it's just a difference in how we see things. Personally I think that while the characters were interesting, the whole approach to the triangle romance thing was wrong on so many levels that it'd need a complete overhaul for it to actually be a character development resource instead of the whole deterrent it ended up being. Because of this I never had much care for the character interactions in the series, and only found their individual stories, and how they interweaved it with the overall plot interesting.

That's too bad as I tend to greatly prefer how the characters played off one another. It's the second-most appealing element of the show for me.

Originally Posted by Proto

On the plot side, as I mentioned it was either a problem of pacing or of insufficient episodes. Personally I've always considered the epic scale of space opera's to be a very good vehicle for complicated and a grandiloquent style of plots, similar to what we found even on character centric series the Crest of the Stars trilogy, or the mother of it all, Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

While I can see the Macross universe as a whole as the kind of epic setting that you describe, I don't think that the same is true of Frontier. In this case, I see it much more as a character drama more than anything else; and it certainly doesn't attempt to encompass the full richness of its parent universe. And to be honest, I'd prefer it if future Macross shows stay away from that kind of thing.

The Crest of the Stars series is quite different since the characters are used as a vehicle for the author to explore his universe. I only liked Legend of Galactic Heroes to a moderate degree, so I'm not interested in any show emulating it. The Macoss universe was laid out decades ago, so there's no need to tread that territory until and unless it involves the characters. This is only true of SDF Macross, and so it's the only true space opera of the bunch.

Originally Posted by Proto

As such, maybe I'm the one predisposed to expect a focus on the plot section of the series, and as a result it was the aspect that paid the most attention to. And as I said I think they had the right ideas... too bad it didn't bear fruit. But from my POV, rather than it just being because they decided to put a conspirancy out of nowhere, it's because they lacked the time to give it a proper face and development. Again, pacing issues.

I really don't think that the plot was the focus of Frontier at all. Only a couple of characters were even all that interested in uncovering it, and the lead characters were only affected in reaction to it.

[BetoJR]

I also don't think of Frontier as a plot-driven show, even if the characters (some more than others) could be developed a bit better. But, to be quite frank, with so many great music, mecha pr0n and - most of all, for me - Sheryl, I couldn't care much more. Scratch that, I just want more.

Changing gears slightly, I do not agree with your assertion of Alto, Proto. If he was, indeed, a bastardization of the VN protagonist (as you say), I don't think his issues would have had such a big impact over his growth. But maybe, that's something more suited for his thread, if you're interested?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Proto

On the Ranka side, I quite like what they did with her character, as an individual and outside of her relationship with Alto. Her story part of the plot didn't suffered as mcuh from the final rush, so maybe if they had given her another episode her character would have been brought to a good close.

On the flip side, Ranka wasn't a very complicated character for her almost straightforward character story. If her story did not suffer much from the final rush, it was because there wasn't much to tell about her. You know what is up with her character from episode 1, her part was pretty predictable.

Originally Posted by Proto

The Sheryl side on the other hand got the short end of the stick. Unfortunately the scriptwriters forwent a much more powerful development and exploration she might have had about her past, and didn't got much screentime beyond her resolution to get back to the singing stage. The producers thought the viewers would want to see her dere dere side than to see something more solid I guess.

For many people, Sheryl shouldered the burden that is Frontier's character drama, and was easily the most complex out of the three. Without her, this show would not move, and that is not an understatement.

It would be cheapening her character by simply designate her as a simple tsundere, especially since she was anything but. It was her interactions with the characters that rendered her presence an effective one. The exploration of her past was never of primary importance, and should not interfere with her overall role.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

At some times, one does stare bemusedly at the opinion of someone who came to completely different conclusions about a series than oneself. I think I´ll better stay out of this discussion, lest this devolve somewhat. I´ll just let it stand that I am almost completely opposed to everything you´ve said, Proto.

[Proto]

I really don't think that the plot was the focus of Frontier at all. Only a couple of characters were even all that interested in uncovering it, and the lead characters were only affected in reaction to it.

Maybe it was just a reaction from mine then since I could never feel much empathy for the characters till the late middle series? Or maybe I remember the previous Macross to be much more plot driven. Whatever the case, i the end that's how it played it to me.

On the flip side, Ranka wasn't a very complicated character for her almost straightforward character story. If her story did not suffer much from the final rush, it was because there wasn't much to tell about her. You know what is up with her character from episode 1, her part was pretty predictable.

Wow? Really? You must be even better at predicting things than I am (*hats off*), because I couldn't for the life of me predict all the plot implications Ranka would have till much later in the series.

If you are talking about her as an individual character though (*hats on*), I will agree that she is a straightforward character, however the very same can be said about the whole cast. As I mentioned in one of the previous threads, being straightforward is one of the show greatest strengths and weaknesses, That her character was straightforward is only an extension on this. It is not a deficiency of her character, it goes in line with the show intentions.

Note, I am not saying that I find her character to be the best thing ever since ARIA the origination or sliced bread, I'm just saying she's the one that suffered the least from the weak ending the show had.

and was easily the most complex out of the three.

While I agree, you will also have to agree that this is not saying much sadly.

It would be cheapening her character by simply designate her as a simple tsundere, especially since she was anything but. It was her interactions with the characters that rendered her presence an effective one. The exploration of her past was never of primary importance, and should not interfere with her overall role.

Well, I guess that's just a difference on priorities, however I still think that as complex or simple as her character was up to episode 20,21 (the episode when she just decided to stand up and sing a capella in the shelter was her climax in my opinion) after that the writers decided to go the easy way out with her character, and made her as 1D as one can be. You can call it tsundere or call it anything else, but any complexity the character had up to that point was forwent for just the sake of fan pandering.

Yes, I think she was a good character. But I think she could have been even better.

Changing gears slightly, I do not agree with your assertion of Alto, Proto. If he was, indeed, a bastardization of the VN protagonist (as you say), I don't think his issues would have had such a big impact over his growth. But maybe, that's something more suited for his thread, if you're interested?

I can move to the final review thread, but I'm not going to move to 5 different threads so that you people can disagree with me on all fronts.

In any case, Alto whole 'growth' was reduced to him becoming more mellow and 2 one-liners about how he needs other people. All his personal issues, family, self identity, were completely forwent. Only his self purpose issue was ever touched with the passing mention of her mother and her later conversation with Klan, but after that again he became less of an individual and more of a faceless proxy. Again, this is just my POV. If you think about it, our male protagonist was the one with the less development in the series out of the three protagonists, and for me that is already a bad sign of what the producers intentions are, specially when he is the one with the most dialogue in the story.

I think I´ll better stay out of this discussion, lest this devolve somewhat. I´ll just let it stand that I am almost completely opposed to everything you´ve said, Proto.

Wow, well, I hope we can at least agree about the good OST and visuals.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Proto

In any case, Alto whole 'growth' was reduced to him becoming more mellow and 2 one-liners about how he needs other people. All his personal issues, family, self identity, were completely forwent. Only his self purpose issue was ever touched with the passing mention of her mother and her later conversation with Klan, but after that again he became less of an individual and more of a faceless proxy. Again, this is just my POV. If you think about it, our male protagonist was the one with the less development in the series out of the three protagonists, and for me that is already a bad sign of what the producers intentions are, specially when he is the one with the most dialogue in the story.

I really do agree with most of what you said the difference only being that I let things slide more than you do But I agree with this sentiment the most, because I felt that the writers didn't dive deep enough into Alto's past for all the mentioning they did.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Proto

Well, I guess that's just a difference on priorities, however I still think that as complex or simple as her character was up to episode 20,21 (the episode when she just decided to stand up and sing a capella in the shelter was her climax in my opinion) after that the writers decided to go the easy way out with her character, and made her as 1D as one can be. You can call it tsundere or call it anything else, but any complexity the character had up to that point was forwent for just the sake of fan pandering.

Yes, I think she was a good character. But I think she could have been even better.

Anybody can improve on a finished product. Nobody can do it perfect the first time through though.

[Proto]

With that reasoning you could justify the wrong doings of every art work, heck every work of any type in this planet, bar remakes.

It's true that it's easier to pick up mistakes in retrospective, however that doesn't mean that you can't lay out a proper series from the first time around without having a time traveler in your team.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Proto

With that reasoning you could justify the wrong doings of every art work, heck every work of any type in this planet, bar remakes.

It's true that it's easier to pick up mistakes in retrospective, however that doesn't mean that you can't lay out a proper series from the first time around without having a time traveler in your team.

The difference being it's acceptable to use it to justify an already remarkable art. You apply your logic to a character that you already admit is well done. Then proceed to think it could be better. The Producers have already done a wonderful job with Sheryl's character, (and the series as well). There are times when simply appreciating are the best. Series like Frontier are a dime in a dozen.

Anyway, It's fine having criticism, But I'm of the same opinion of Magnuskn. That part I just felt I had to speak out on, especially since you seem to be criticizing some of the show's strengths instead of it's obvious flaws.

[Proto]

Of course I could take Macross Frontier like other mindless entertainment series like Saki and just watch it for the cool robots and the yay shipping. It's because I considered it could have reached higher heights that I am being this harsh, however it's your prerogative if you want to do the former.

It's the same as one would see a teacher in real life. I will congratulate the average student for doing his best and getting a B. I will seriously scold the smart student with potential for being satisfied with a B and not aiming for highest honours.