2006-01-06, 11:05
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Link #42 |
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otaku-hikikomori
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 37
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I suspected something was wrong when i was unable to log in to my account.....
YOU MEAN ALL MY POSTS ARE GONE TOO? *oh btw hi wingdarkness, I'm sure you'd remember me.... (heh heh) hope your house-moving goes smoothly...* Anyway, just a thought: Are we still on KGNE? Or are we now on a debate whether telling lies is right or wrong? I've roughly glanced through the debate thus far... and it seems to drift further....and further...and further from the anime. Personally, I would have viewed the lies from a different angle: Bxtr, you may be right in saying that telling her the truth (aka doing it Mistuki's way), or letting her find out the truth would have been better in the long term (and would possibly solved quite a few problems at the same time). However, you are looking it from a single point of view, which is Haruka's point of view. Looking at it from other points of view, for example, Haruka's parents. They were personally advised by the doctor (who supposedly knew more than them) not to do anything to cause her to be emotionally unstable. Therefore, being parents, they did the best thing: persuading Takayuki to play along with the lie together with Akane. Same goes for Akane. As for the doctor, thats more complicated. In the first place, I believed she had declared that she was not a specialist in such a field, and that Haruka's case was the first she had encountered, implying that she had to rely more on common sense and books she read up etc.. Of cos, it can be said that Haruka should be under the care of a doctor who knew what exactly to do, but thats not important, she got stuck with this doctor. Well, and according to what the doctor read up (which concurs with what commonly is said, or at least what i hear about patients who just awaken from their coma), it is best not to put the patient through another emotional trauma so soon after she/he has awakened. Considering this from each point of view, the intention on their end was right. If I were in their position, I would definitely have done it the same way. Of cos it was not the right way, so it turned out, but actions should not just be classified as good/bad by just looking at it from the "victim's" POV. The big picture has to be looked at.... its more than just arguing whether "white-lies", or for that matter, telling "lies" is correct or not. What matters more is the intention... I forsee the argument leading on to whether "only the ends justify the means", or if the "means " and "ends" have to be considered separately. Quite disappointed to see all my posts disappearing..... ARGH!!!!! |
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2006-01-06, 13:46
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Link #43 |
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anime4life
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 35
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i think ive allready brought up these points. Its just that bxtor said that he also could "play along" and "follow the doctors orders" without telling obvious lies and letting her drift even more into her "perfect dream world" so that the shock when the truth comes out is even bigger (as it happened). I even recall the doctor to advise him to avoid answering her question concerning those important topics (not to just lie to her).
Of course its a bit wierd if he would just leave her room in a rush when she comes up with such topics (as it was impossible for takayuki to run away as she asked him to renew their promise, but thats maybe because he allready had driven her into her dreamworld). There might have been ways to do what the doctor said without lieing, but it might have been complicated. But in mitsukis case its obvious that if she had just said the truth, haruka would have understood that and it would have turned out better. Still mitsukis intentions were good and selfless. But in the end i can just say that they are just humans with flaws and make mistakes which lots of people would have done too in their situations. Kgne is a reallife drama with real realistic characters which are thrown into hard reallifedramasituations. Maybe thats why kgne is so damn good. After watching it, it is easy to blame things on someone and tell how to do it better because we learned from their mistakes as they have learned (most probably). But its different being in a situation and seeing other peoples situations. |
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2006-01-10, 00:08
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Link #44 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I suspected something was wrong when i was unable to log in to my account.....
YOU MEAN ALL MY POSTS ARE GONE TOO? *oh btw hi wingdarkness, I'm sure you'd remember me.... (heh heh) hope your house-moving goes smoothly...* Anyway, just a thought: Are we still on KGNE? Or are we now on a debate whether telling lies is right or wrong? I've roughly glanced through the debate thus far... and it seems to drift further....and further...and further from the anime. Personally, I would have viewed the lies from a different angle: Bxtr, you may be right in saying that telling her the truth (aka doing it Mistuki's way), or letting her find out the truth would have been better in the long term (and would possibly solved quite a few problems at the same time). However, you are looking it from a single point of view, which is Haruka's point of view. [I objectively viewed from EVERYONE'S point of view not just Harkua's, Takayuki's, Mitsuki's, Akane's, Parents, doctors, but EVERYONE'S... Lies and deception DID NOT BENEFIT ONE INDIVIDUAL, but HARMED EVERYONE... In the scene where Harkua asks Takayuki to tell her honestly if he has a boyfriend, he leaves out ALL OF THE FACTS, and leaves her the answer "NO ONE." which is KNOWINGLY DECEPTIVE BECAUSE IT IS ONLY 'PARTIALLY' TRUE... Asked second time, he deceives her again... Asked third time, he says nothing and leaves (evading the question)... Asked by Akane fourth time, he deceives her... Asked by Akane fifth time, he leaves (evading the question)... NO ONE BENEFITED from the deception, NOT EVEN Takayuki...] Looking at it from other points of view, for example, Haruka's parents. They were personally advised by the doctor (who supposedly knew more than them) not to do anything to cause her to be emotionally unstable. Therefore, being parents, they did the best thing: persuading Takayuki to play along with the lie together with Akane. Same goes for Akane. As for the doctor, thats more complicated. In the first place, I believed she had declared that she was not a specialist in such a field, and that Haruka's case was the first she had encountered, implying that she had to rely more on common sense and books she read up etc.. Of cos, it can be said that Haruka should be under the care of a doctor who knew what exactly to do, but thats not important, she got stuck with this doctor. Well, and according to what the doctor read up (which concurs with what commonly is said, or at least what i hear about patients who just awaken from their coma), it is best not to put the patient through another emotional trauma so soon after she/he has awakened. [Ask yourself is the value of honesty LESS IMPORTANT then WISHES AND FEELINGS of the doctors, parents and anyone for that matter? If you believe that anyone has a right to lie to WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, because they can always justify it by saying it was FOR YOUR OWN GOOD... Based on the logic YOU are giving (Lying can be ok at times): WHY SHOULD ANYONE EVER BE HONEST?! Lying harms Haruka because she doesn't learn the facts SHE NEEDS to better understand her reality... Lying harms Takayuki because it gives him an excuse to EVADE HIS OWN PROBLEMS which has ALREADY CAUSED HIM TO HARM EVERYONE INCLUDING HIMSELF... Lying harms Akane because she can see Takayuki's words as lies because she has EVIDENCE (Which she has seen with her eyes and heard with her ears) that tells her that Takayuki doesn't care about Haruka, Mitsuki or even himself because he won't be honest with ANY OF THEM... Lying harms Mitsuki because she sacrifices her hopes and dreams of swiming in the olympics, works a job she DOES NOT want, gives up her emotions, mind and body; all of that for Takayuki who doesn't even give anything of value in return. Logically he NEVER had to lie or deceive her, and could always benefit her by giving her FACTS that she need to better understand her reality. IF YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE that he had no choice but to deceive her you did not pay attention to all the evidence that was presented before the accident... Takayuki was NOT HONEST with ANYONE including HIMSELF constantly defaulting on laziness to allow others to assume whatever they wanted to believe rather then extert effort to voice HIS HONEST FEELINGS AND VALUES... He was constantly sacrificing his own self-interests, which is NEVER honest...] Considering this from each point of view, the intention on their end was right. If I were in their position, I would definitely have done it the same way. [Takayuki's actions were inexcusable for ANYONE...IMMORAL] Of cos it was not the right way, so it turned out, but actions should not just be classified as good/bad by just looking at it from the "victim's" POV. The big picture has to be looked at.... its more than just arguing whether "white-lies", or for that matter, telling "lies" is correct or not. What matters more is the intention... 'Good Intentions' whose? yours? Intentions and preferences are OPINIONS, facts are much more important... Since you have ignored the IMPORTANT DISCUSSION about lies in general... Please answer the following question honestly yourself... LYING is HARMFUL to anyone? "YES..." (My answer based on reality, reason, facts and evidence WILL NEVER CHANGE ) [EVIDENCE: Lying harms a victim who acts on the FALSE information provided by the liar... EXAMPLE: He told her that her boyfriend was cheating on her (even though he said that only to get him away from her).... She left her boyfriend (who did nothing wrong and did not cheat on her)...] CONFESS YOUR ANSWER: YES or NO If you ignore the question or fail to respond your answer is YES... To act 'good or positive' is static, lifeless and depends on opinions of an individual, or society not facts. EXAMPLE: He was ‘good’ because he lied to spare her feelings. To act 'bad or negative' is static, lifeless and depends on opinions of an individual, or society not facts. EXAMPLE: He was ‘bad’ because he likes the Red Sox. Everyone should love the Yankees. HONESTY To act HONESTLY is dynamic, life-building, constantly growing and does not depend on opinions rather rational discipline, thought and control to fully integrate all the facts into reality developing maximum NET BENEFITS and VALUES for the CONSCIOUS INDIVIDUAL and SOCIETY. DISHONESTY (Latin prefix dis-, which came from the adverb dis-, meaning “apart, asunder.” Dis- is an important prefix that occurs very frequently in English in words such as discredit, disrepair, and disrespect...LITERALLY MEANS 'OPPOSITE OF' OR NOT) To act DISHONESTLY is dynamic, life-destroying, constantly declining and does not depend on opinions (but can use them in place of facts) rather laziness to EVADE some or all of the facts in reality (pretending they don't exist or aren't important) developing NO NET BENEFITS and DESTROY VALUES for the CONSCIOUS INDIVIDUAL and SOCIETY. I forsee the argument leading on to whether "only the ends justify the means", or if the "means " and "ends" have to be considered separately. Quite disappointed to see all my posts disappearing..... ARGH!!!!! The ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY THE MEANS as such is the tool of all DICTATORS, TYRANTS, and MASS MURDERS OF ALL TIME... So you want to lie, right? WHY? LAZINESS? You don't like to exert effort to find a better choice? You think its better to avoid reality then face it? WHY? IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHY? THEN YOU SHOULD NOT BE LYING! NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY YOU WON'T FIND A REASON, AS NONE EXISTS, SINCE LYING IS NOTHING, MEANS NOTHING, GENERATES NOTHING, and WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING... Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-12 at 22:02. |
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2006-01-10, 00:58
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Link #45 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
So, when the doctor told him not share the facts about the accident which included Mitsuki and himself (Mitsuki had honestly asked him to do so and he lied saying he would), he had a perfect excuse to continue evading reality. When Harukua asked him to REAFFIRM the promise he made to her, it was PROFOUNDLY DISHONEST to do so because the promise no longer had any basis in reality. HE DID NOT PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT to Harkuka by doing so but DID CREATE HARM by allowing her believe that NOTHING HAD CHANGED... In Mitsuki's visit, Mitsuki did NOT provide all of the facts to Harkua, and was dishonest... She DID GREAT HARM by leaving out many details, leaving Harkua to guess at the missing facts. QUESTIONS THAT HARUKUA NEVER RECEIVED ANSWERS TOO: Q1. What actually happened to Takayuki while Harkua was in a coma? A1. Harukua is never given the facts and is left to GUESS... Q2. What actually happened to Mitsuki while Harkua was in a coma? A2. Harukua is never given the facts and is left to GUESS... Q3. Did Takayuki keep their promise to be together FOREVER? A3. He reaffirmed it so, it must be true she thought... Then she realized based on what Akane said he might be with Mitsuki... She asks him to tell her the truth.... He lies and says he has NO ONE, but leaves out that DID HAVE BEFORE including numerous other 'little details' Mitsuki shows up and contradicts his story, and tells her that she and him have been together and even had sex... Dismisses their relationship as being an UNIMPORTANT MISTAKE! (qualifier: She says she doesn't love him and would have done it WITH ANYONE in the same situation!) Harkuka begins to wonder if Takayuki EVER REALLY CARED ABOUT either her or Mitsuki and only PRETENDED to! Q4. Did Mitsuki actually 'love' Takayuki? A4. Harkua is left to wonder and GUESS at the answer of that question. But can see a few facts where Mitsuki sacrified her dreams of swimming, gave up her time to take care of Takayuki, including had sex with him... Why would she do all those things if she didn't at least care for him, she would wonder? But in the end i can just say that they are just humans with flaws and make mistakes which lots of people would have done too in their situations. Kgne is a reallife drama with real realistic characters which are thrown into hard reallifedramasituations. Maybe thats why kgne is so damn good. After watching it, it is easy to blame things on someone and tell how to do it better because we learned from their mistakes as they have learned (most probably). But its different being in a situation and seeing other peoples situations. Why not LEARN from their mistakes rather then justify them without reason? The mistakes they made are always preventable because they are based on making a MORAL or IMMORAL action based on all the facts you have in the EACH SITUATION. To ignore their mistakes and AVOID EXERTING MAXIMUM EFFORT to learn from them is to deny the opportunity to learn for yourself. Not ONE of you who read this topic is INCAPABLE of fully understanding the story... Until you extert a tremendous effort to realize when a character's actions were BENEFICAL to themselves and the others OR HARMFUL to themselves and others, you 'artifically' limit your ability to LEARN from the story. Trying asking yourself these two questions when viewing media: Did they (author, producers, artists, and directors) honestly create values? OR did they (author, producers, artists, and directors) dishonestly destroy values? BEGINNING FOUR young individuals all friends attending school trying to find a future together ENDING: FOUR sad adults, hopes and dreams destroyed, no longer friends, forever harmed by hurtful memories, and two of them lovers out of guilt, LOST and looking for way to escape a reality they wouldn't have wished on ANYONE... OUCH! The authors dishonestly took our four friends tragically destroyed them right before our eyes leaving us drained both emotionally and mentally...(and effective it was, every time I hear 'Rumbling Hearts' melody I feel a deep sadness within) Even sadder still they left us that accident and it appears to be handy excuse to blame all the pain and suffering on, right? Get rid of the accident of course everything is better, but you can't since it was written in as part of reality, you can't take it back no matter how much you want too, Takayuki! It isn't the accident that made the end so bittersweet, but the dishonesties spread from character to character and sometimes within the character themselves... DISHONESTY was the actual theme of the story, the title of story was LIE (THE ETERITY YOU DESIRE) and should have been (THE ETERNITY NO ONE DESIRES)... Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-10 at 01:15. |
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2006-01-10, 03:36
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Link #46 |
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Blue Dawn
Join Date: Jun 2004
Age: 44
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How about we just agree to disagree and be done with it. Apparently you have some pent up aggression over the way the story plays out and how 'dishonest' everyon was and there's no changing that point of view, therefor you automatically discard whatever we might say thus not creating discussion but nothing more than an endless debate over something that doesn't hold any relavancy.
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2006-01-10, 08:24
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Link #47 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Why not respond to my comments on a POINT BY POINT BASIS AS I HONESTLY DID FOR YOU unless you are being dishonest? EVERY SINGLE WORD I have typed is not merely 'my point of view' but a based on FACTS PRESENTED TO US BY THE AUTHORS... So, if you wish to disregard my comments WITHOUT REASON, feel free do so, you have in effect agreed with 'everything I have stated' by ARGUING AND EVADING THEM rather then face them honestly and disagree with them on PRINCIPLE... Every FACT presented that EXISTED in the story HOLDS RELAVANCY to the discussion yet you failed to analyze the facts and disagree out of LAZINESS! WHY SHOULD WE PRESUME to accept your OPINION that lies were OK? Please explain your higher sense of right and wrong about lies. When is it appropriate or inappropriate to LIE? Please create some rules or guidelines to follow, because I am confused... I have read numerous books looking hard for those answers, studied the effects of lies in myself and others based ON REALITY, and still after years of hard effort have not found anything postive in them. WHERE AM I WRONG? WHAT DID I MISS? I WANT TO LEARN, PLEASE SHARE IF YOU KNOW. Also, I hope you will start typing that LONG LIST and numerous examples of 'positive lies' that you promised earlier. I am a man of common knowledge and I was unable see anything positive generated by the ones you listed, maybe you can provide more that possibly could be 'postive.' My mind is open to any possiblity as long as it flows from reality and does not conflict with it; you will never know for sure unless you try and exert effort. "When is there a Fully Objective 'REASON' to lie (Deceive)?" [Evidence: No reason can be found because dishonesty is ALWAYS LESS then honesty... Latin: Prefix 'DIS' means 'asunder, apart' which means the same as NOT or OPPOSITE OF] I honestly say, and testify to the fact: 'NEVER!' ASKED THAT QUESTION YET AGAIN Darkcnty WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?: __________ If you evade the question your answer is 'NEVER!' LAST TIME: You provided lies to justify lying! So based on YOUR LOGIC, lying is NEVER WRONG, EVER! Congratulations: You justified lying by lying more and more and more......... And its all fine and GOOD because you did it for a 'GOOD CAUSE' which is another lie, because it is not a reason but another excuse to lie. I have no agression to any individual here, and only dishonest actions (when people toss words about and expect me ASSUME they are correct with NO EVIDENCE. Challenge my comments objectively, I WELCOME IT, and I will not evade your responses...), and if you DID NOT READ AND STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND MY COMMENTS then said 'I was wrong...not explaining WHY?', you were dishonest... DarkCntry, if this topic is irrelvant to you, do particpate in it, as no one is forcing you partipate if you don't want to... I joined this discussion when I saw a poster saying that logic determined who Takayuki would end up with and PROXIMITY was WHY! He had reduced the value of logic to meaningless since they disregarded the most important value in life the ability of CONSCIOUS MAN to make decisions. Thus, I jumped in to CORRECT that LOGICAL ERROR, that Takayuki (if he was real human being) could end up anyone as long as he honestly recognized his mistakes and corrected them. The problem Takayuki had was severe depression, which I have personally experienced myself, and is very hard to realize and deal with because it exists as a lie inside yourself. Why am I the only one blaming Takayuki (HONESTLY SO) for his OWN problems? He is the catalyst, the weapon of mass destruction, first tearing down his own life, then Mitsuki's, then Harku's, then Shinji's, diminishing Akane's and her parents... To deny this as fact is to ignore that Takayuki was depressed at all... WHY WAS HE DEPRESSED THEN, what is your reason? YOUR ANSWER IS: ___________ I have gained tremendous value from KGnE because I have exerted maximum effort to develop a full understanding of the story and shared that understanding to the best of my ability, knowledge and belief. This topic will always be relevant to me because KGnE is based on dishonesty and depends on it to create pain, fear, saddness, guilt in the victim that watches the story - YOU! |
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2006-01-10, 20:11
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Link #48 |
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Blue Dawn
Join Date: Jun 2004
Age: 44
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KimiNozo is NOT based on dishonesty, your facts are totally skewed by your opinions and tunnelvision view of the show.
My job is not to disprove or prove anything, especially when people preach their values onto me as if they were the only right thing in this world. Not one point in my replies has stated that Takayuki was depressed, however he was depressed over confliction of many things, including but not limited to that of lying to Haruka. As I said, you're way too hung up on this whole non-existant "KimiNozo is based upon lies" issue that it's fruitless to even continue a discussion with you because we're going to automatically be wrong if we don't agree with you, therefor you have ended any valuable discussion value with this thread, which wasn't anything about lying in a moral-driven society before you came along.
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2006-01-11, 22:42
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Link #49 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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KimiNozo is NOT based on dishonesty, your facts are totally skewed by your opinions and tunnelvision view of the show.
What evidence do you provide to make that statement? I showed numerous examples of characters being dishonest and deceiving others, harming others and themselves; THESE ARE FACTS SEEN BY WATCHING AND HEARING THE SHOW: Were you watching a different show? My job is not to disprove or prove anything, especially when people preach their values onto me as if they were the only right thing in this world. Not one point in my replies has stated that Takayuki was depressed, however he was depressed over confliction of many things, including but not limited to that of lying to Haruka. I agree with you on that one point, your job is not prove or disprove anything if YOU DO NOT WANT TO. All I asked you to do was be logical and honest, and counter with honest words, and instead you decided to attack my words by calling them my opinion without ever explaining WHY you believe that. A very reasonable request since I am replying and will continue to REPLY DIRECTLY to your comments not avoiding them out of fear but responding on the basis of logic and facts. Rather then let this topic decend into pointless CLICHES, illogical non sequiturs (This term is Latin and means "it does not follow," as in one conclusion does not logically follow from another fact or facts.) and worthless opinions, I have strived to provided value to the discussion by refusing to ignore ANY OF THE MISTAKES, LIES, DECEPTIONS made by the characters. You on the otherhand wish to dismiss them as a 'NECESSARY GOOD' without any reason, and also expect everyone reading this topic to AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION, without REASON. Read more carefully: I NEVER BLAMED Takayuki's problems on his LIES TO HARKUA... QUOTED WORD FOR WORD From one of the pieces I typed: Takayuki's Great Deception: Instead he decided to live in a fantasy world he created to avoid the harsh realities of the real world. And although that might have helped him to supress the emotions and pain, it was only a temporary bandaid on a wound that was continuing to grow larger day after day; Covered up but still infected it would not heal unless he realized that the wound and pain were NOT REAL. No matter how real it seemed in his imagination, it was not real, but a dishonest lie he planted to avoid facing harsh cruel reality. WHERE in that piece did I blame lies told to harkua as cause of HIS problems? Harukua was never even mentioned.... Harakua was never the focus of anaylsis, THE STORY AS A WHOLE was the focus of analysis with extra time spent on Harkua because she COMPLETELY DEPENDED ON Takayuki, Mitsuki, Akane, and others to fill in the missing information because she LOST those three years, and she could not get that information without HONEST ANSWERS from those people... I HAVE AND WILL ALWAYS BLAME HIM FOR THE LIES HE TOLD HIMSELF... Takayuki was depressed and that is FACT SEEN BY WATCHING AND HEARING THE SHOW: Were you watching a different show? So, you dismissed the importance of the FACT that he was depressed? WHY WAS HE DEPRESSED? I asked you to come with a REASON, not just 'things' because things can change based opinion. Objective reason or REAL CAUSES are based on facts and reality not just an opinion; there is always a CAUSE for EVERYTHING... You continue to ignore the CAUSE WAS WITHIN HIS OWN MIND AND BODY, and it was HIS RESPONSIBILITY to SOLVE this problem because it was HIS MIND AND BODY... WHY do you dismiss this as unimportant or irrelevant? You DISHONESTLY don't even give me credit for pointing it out, WHY? It was the basis by which the DRAMA of the show is developed on, the emotional problems which begin from the AFTERMATH of a tragic accident... THE PURPOSE of the analysis of lies in general was to explain how lies DESTROY the ability of the mind to properly function. Lies cause depressions exactly like Takayuki's WHICH IS REAL AND POSSIBLE FOR ANYONE... When you were caught in a LIE DarkCntry, why did you not admit to it? I have patiently waited for you to admit your mistake honestly to me, and realize that Santa Claus is not a valid reason to lie... I have explained numerous ways and even offered you second chance to answer the same question, and you evaded not providing ANY answer... Also, in my last comments, I asked you HONESTLY for the long list of 'postive lies' that you PROMISED were real... Where are they? Why are you ignoring that simple and honest request by me to learn from you? Basicly, by ignoring me you are creating the PRESUMPTION that I am not HUMAN BEING like yourself and do not deserve any respect WHATSOEVER... LET THE RECORD SHOW, I testify that I am conscious human being, and my life matters... I have the honest right to ask anyone a question.... If you argue, or ignore the question without providing any reason, I have no other option but to PRESUME that you agree with that answer that I have provided... I did not demand you provided ONE SPECIFIC ANSWER, only provide the answer that you believed was true and also satisfied the question... Thus, if you wanted to disagree and provided a reason, I honestly gave you that option and will always give you that option. But to argue that I AM WRONG, stating that the question and answer are irrelevant without provided any reason WHY is to dismiss me as individual, and I will NOT stand for it because you can and should act better... As I said, you're way too hung up on this whole non-existant "KimiNozo is based upon lies" issue that it's fruitless to even continue a discussion with you because we're going to automatically be wrong if we don't agree with you, therefor you have ended any valuable discussion value with this thread, which wasn't anything about lying in a moral-driven society before you came along. You again provided NO VALUE to the discussion at hand and argued based on your opinion and offering NO FACTS... Based on your statement, "this whole non-existant "KimiNozo is based on lies" issue", I am left to PRESUME that you believe that there ARE NO LIES or DECEPTIONS in the story and they had NO EFFECT on its outcome... Were you watching the same anime as the rest of us? nonexistent - WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) : nonexistent adj 1: not having existence or being or actuality; "chimeras are nonexistent" [ant: existent] Thus, do you really care about THE POINT of this discussion? Developing a honest and logical understanding of KimiNozo... If you want to disagree, I have NO PROBLEM WITH IT; I WELCOME IT! Stop ignoring my comments out of laziness, ATTACK THEM ANYWAY YOU CHOOSE, You can do whatever you want to do get angry, upset, even call me names which will provide no value to the discussion. I AM STRONG and I can take it! If my posts are IRRELVANT, say so and STATE WHY? So, I can properly either try explain more clearly and help everyone better understand my words or ADMIT MY ERROR and I WILL DO SO IF MY WORDS CONFLICT WITH FACTS AND LOGIC. But if you merely state, "I am wrong." Or toss your opinions and EXPECT ME OR ANYONE to presume they are fact, I will continue to demand you explain yourself. I have the right, because you don't have to believe me just because I say so, just as I don't have to believe you (BUT I will consider your words no matter what, I strive to respect everyone) UNLESS the WORDS you have STATED ARE FACT and based on EVIDENCE...Then I would be dishonest if I ignored or argued with them for no reason. Again if it is POINTLESS or FRUITLESS to continue the discussion WHY DID YOU REPLY? The word pointless means has NO VALUE, Thus if the discussion has NO VALUE, Your comment has NO VALUE because it exists in discussion that has NO VALUE, and you wasted your effort that does have VALUE and sacrificed your time which has VALUE to make that statement. So, if that's the case rather then just tell us something we should already know: CREATE SOME VALUE to this topic and provide YOUR OWN HONEST INTERPETATION of the events of the story. Extert maximum effort to honestly confess to best of your knowledge and belief your own observation of the facts: What does this story mean to you? Why does it exist? And how did each character play a part in it? Be as detailed as possible striving scene by scene to see WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED SEE WHAT THE CHARACTERS SAW HEAR WHAT THE CHARACTERS HEARD IMAGINE HOW THE CHARACTERS FELT struggle logically to understand who benefited and who was harmed from every action... It is NEVER POINTLESS to develop honest values that you yourself or others want or need, and that is want I am striving to do within this topic; constantly developing stronger and stronger values within the topic to benefit THOSE WHO HAVE AN OPEN MIND... IS YOUR MIND OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT MY WORDS MIGHT BE RELEVANT (Any relevancy whatsoever) AND CORRECT BASED ON REALITY DEPICTED IN THE STORY? (My opinion is worthless junk, I did not type anything here based soley on it) Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-12 at 15:39. |
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2006-01-13, 06:34
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Link #50 |
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otaku-hikikomori
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 37
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DarkCntry, save it. I believe, and I believe all other readers in this thread believe too, that you are open-minded to other's views (or facts, a word which seems to be thrown about like the gospel). Lets just move on man. We have to accept that different people have different views (or facts) towards a certain issue; in this case, lying, and if that person is so adamant that lying is wrong so be it. We need not be cowed into agreeing with his/her line of thoughts, neither do we have to attempt to convince him/her of the merits of our points. Its futile. In any case, I believe that lying is not harmful to everyone, neither do I believe that honesty is the best policy. I do believe that honesty is the ideal policy.
On the other hand, I do think that replying in red and in caps is very distasteful. Even when I disagreed vehemently with various parties previously (which sadly, most have all disappeared), and vice versa, such "tones" were rarely used. I guess we could do with a bit of politeness and civility here, and reply in normal tones? Back to KGNE please.
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2006-01-14, 05:30
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Link #51 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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DarkCntry, save it. I believe, and I believe all other readers in this thread believe too, that you are open-minded to other's views (or facts, a word which seems to be thrown about like the gospel). Lets just move on man. We have to accept that different people have different views (or facts) towards a certain issue; in this case, lying, and if that person is so adamant that lying is wrong so be it. We need not be cowed into agreeing with his/her line of thoughts, neither do we have to attempt to convince him/her of the merits of our points. Its futile. In any case, I believe that lying is not harmful to everyone, neither do I believe that honesty is the best policy. I do believe that honesty is the ideal policy.
On the other hand, I do think that replying in red and in caps is very distasteful. I did NOT realize it was distasteful or wrong to respond in red... I did NOT intentionally do this as a sign of disrespect whatsoever, because I was responding directly to his statements. Why would I do so unless I considered and valued him as individual, and did not dismiss ONE word he said. I honestly apologize for mistakes no one pointed out, until you did just now... I was just trying to make sure my responses to his comments were clearly seperated and no one would mistake his comments as my own. I also used caps for EMPHASIZE since words on page do not provide the same value as the spoken word since my tonality would be different when I say those words. I know in general caps means shouting but what should I do if I want to EMPHASIZE those points so they stand out without using caps? If such general requests were forthcoming I would have honestly considered and honored those requests. I am sorry again but this is the STYLE I WAS TAUGHT AND LEARNED and if you merely considered me disrespectful without asking me why I did it this way, you missunderstood me. I am civil and did not expect anyone to believe a single word I spoke, but hope people would honestly provide some value to the discussion by disagreeing on principle rather then argue without merit. Even when I disagreed vehemently with various parties previously (which sadly, most have all disappeared), and vice versa, such "tones" were rarely used. I guess we could do with a bit of politeness and civility here, and reply in normal tones? Back to KGNE please. We never left KGnE, and you are dismissing the whole analysis of KGnE I have provided and vast amount of time I spent seriously considering every value I offered to this discussion. Either give me credit for the effort I have made commenting on this topic, or you are disrespecting me without reason... Explain yourself on this comment, or add some value to this discussion YOURSELF and as I requested earlier; honestly what does KGnE as whole mean to you? What were the Author's Intentions? Why does it exist? And how each character played a part in it? These are all reasonable questions, I have asked everyone who particpates in this topic provide an answer too. I would not expect something of you that I would not do myself, so if anyone believes that I did not answer those questions to their satisfaction, please ask me questions. I will attempt to honestly respond to the best of my knowledge and belief. Is anyone aware of the effort I made to finally realize after watching the show a second time that it was based on dishonesty? I did not presume this was so, or base that on an opinion but realized that after seeing a steady pattern of events within the story... Since, I have full intention of provided additional value to this topic; Is anyone interested in a series of scene-by-scene analayis' of KGnE creating evidence to support the logical claim that the intention of the authors was to harm the audience with dishonest drama? Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-14 at 07:32. |
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2006-01-14, 12:43
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Link #52 | |
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otaku-hikikomori
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 37
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Quote:
Thanks Bxtor, for the attempt to add civility to your most recent post. I would like to clarify, however, that I never said that you had gone out of topic. I had said "Back to KGNE, please", because I myself had gone out of topic and added my thoughts on civility and politeness in this thread, which was in no way remotely related to KGNE. As such, I did not want the direction of the thread to degrade to one where everyone started talking about forum etiquette and so on. So there, no disrespect, no dismissal of your points. At all. In any case, you had asked me two questions in response to my post, which I'll list below: a. Why should anyone ever be honest? b. Lying is harmful to anyone? I believe I had addressed both points in my last post. To save the time of other readers in this thread, I'm not going to rehash it again, so kindly refer to my last post. As for your other questions which you had claimed to have requested from me earlier: "Honestly what does KGnE as whole mean to you? What were the Author's Intentions? Why does it exist? And how each character played a part in it?" Out of respect for your painstaking effort to post such long replies, I re-read your post again, and unfortunately found no trace of such questions, which explains why i did not answer them. If you would like me to though, I would gladly do so, in my own time and space. No one doubts your efforts in trying to understand the anime. I would just gently like to point out though, that even after re-watching KGNE 4 times (not including the first time I watched it), I dare not claim to be an authority in this field nor seek to impose my views on others. Not that I am claiming that you are, though. I believe DarkCntry and other readers of this thread, too, have rewatched and replayed both the anime and the game many times over, and all of them have made immense efforts in analysing the anime before coming up with their own views. In any case, to some people, a cup filled halfway with water can either be half-full, half-empty, or half filled with air. I would just like to ask owners of the dvd edition if the authors/creators of the anime/game series had mentioned the aim of the series, which would prove to be most enlightening, and possibly, most objective.
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Last edited by kokanaden; 2006-01-14 at 21:36. |
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2006-01-15, 14:22
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Link #53 |
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anime4life
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 35
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my inetconnection was gone for a week and though i wasnt able to reply recently.
however I dont mind at all that the discussion driffted into a different almost offtopic direction. However you are free to think that this discussion is offtiopic and meaningless, but i kinda feel it is only said to bash other people and peoples views when they dont insist or arent interested to get back to the maintopic of this thread (which isnt discussed anymore since page 2). As i am a free individual too, i think that even though we went offtopic its not like it doesnt have anything to do with kgne at all, and i dont blieve this discussion is useless either, because as for me, its not like im only discussing to make everyone on this world/forum believe what i believe. Maybe i can influence the other persons view on some part aspects same as i may get influenced on my view on some part aspects. Or maybe i just want to make my opinion more clear to others or get better picture of the other persons view. a.s.o..... So to come back to bxtors theory (dont read if you think its useless or report me to a mod for going offtopic if it satisfies you): I somehow understand your view now; you might be right that every lie might be harmfull. However, i think its a fact that it also depends on the situation/lie/persons how harmfull it acctually is. There are lies that are veryharmful and immoral and there are lies that are just a little bit harmful (leaving out the "positive" aspects of lies at this point). So now about the "positive" aspects of lies: i kind of got the impression that you totally ignore those. for example as you criticized takayuki for renewing his oath with haruka in the hospital. you are right there are immoral and negative aspects to it: - promissing something he most probably wont be able to keep. - hurting her this way in the end. - loss of trust between friends - causeing her to get lost in her dreamworld ... however i think its still wrong to completely ignore the positive aspect, how small they might ever be: - make haruka happy for the moment - rather easy way out for him I could agree with you when you say that when we make a relation between positive and negative aspects, the neative ones are greater. But i think you problem might be automatically looking at the relation between positive and negative aspects first, and then completely forgetting about the positive ones and completely ignoring or denying their existance. Though there are situations in which you deal with certain persons where lies might have a rather small negative aspects (for example lieing to drunk/violent/stupid/bully kind of gangs/guys, or people close to death). When you tell lies, (which have great positive aspects), to those, the positive aspects might be greater than the negative ones, and therefor it would be what we call a "white lie". (while i think most people allready consider a lie with "good intentions" a "white lie" regardless of the desaster it might cause). To give an example again: A familyfather drives his family home by car and get involved in an accident. He, his wife and his childrens get injured very badly. You are a good friend of this father and you hold his hand as he is stuck in the car and in a very serious condition, while everyone hopelessly is trying their best to get him out of there, while his family is taken to the hospital. He is dieing and with his last breath he asks you whether his childrens are all right. You say they are fine and waiting for you in the hospital. But in fact you know their condition is very serious too. Negative aspects: - you lie to your best friend - you give him false information about such a serious situation. positive aspects: - he wont die even blaming hisself for his familys condition. he will at least be happy his family is save. Wheres the use telling him his family is also about to die and making the last thoughts he have sad ones? As you can see its a matter of opinions whether the negative or positive aspects are greater. You might be true when you say the negative aspects are allways there when lieing, but its not a fact that the negative ones are allways greater than the positive ones, but rather maybe that you allways consider the negative ones as greater regardless of the situation. Even if you lie out of lazyness and it only benefits yourself, the negative aspect might be considered even smaller in this certain situation. |
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2006-01-16, 23:27
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Link #54 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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DEVELOPING VALUES FROM MEDIA
General Notes: You can choose to view media as entertainment only and as an escape from real-life. OR You can choose to struggle rationally see its entertainment AND learn valuable real-life lessons from it. THE point of discussion on KGnE (or any piece of media) is to gather all the facts to determine its value for yourself. [What I honestly see won't help you if you can't see it for yourself] [You are right, Kokanaden, I had full intentions of including those questions in one of the first few discussions (To create a valuable discussion which I desire) but I did not do so. I aplogize for my dishonest and lazy behavior, I should have known better and checked the facts before making that statement. I will NOT excuse my behavior...] I asked two general questions several comments back that were directed to Mephisto but included anyone that wanted to learn from this discussion (they are far more logically integrated then the more vague requests I directed to Darkcntry. Did the authors, directors, animators, etc. create values? (This was directed at ANYONE who wanted to CREATE VALUE to the discussion, because the answer has value.) Did the authors, directors, animators, etc. destroy values? (This was directed at ANYONE who wanted to CREATE VALUE to the discussion, because the answer has value.) First off remember, we do not need any one specific individual (not even the authors) to make a determination of these (anyone can answer these questions themselves. As I have said before and will continue to say again my opinion is worthless garbage, nothing I have stated is impossible to find yourself since I based it on facts that exist within the story) because we already have all the evidence we need --- we have the show itself. CAUSE --> EFFECT ACTION --> CONSEQUENCES <-- REACTION GENERAL OBSERVATIONS: A number of individuals who have posted (myself included) FEEL mentally drained, sad, depressed, angry and a lot of other emotions after watching this show. Some individuals which I have chatted with have said they would never watch this show again because it depressed them so much. Some have said they were so angry at Takayuki they wished that Mitsuki would have never agreed to come back to him. Still, others hate Mitsuki because she betrayed Harku. I myself feel extremely sad everytime I see Harku's face because she lost: 1. Three years of her life from the neligence of a drunk driver who should have acted better 2. Her three friends who had drifted away from her while she was gone. 3. the love to a young boy who had broken their promise and she could no longer trust or believe in any longer, ALL of that for 'nothing' as she was innocent. The varying degree of opinions illustrated by a rough sampling of respondents demonstrates that the show had a massive effect on the emotions (emotions are very personal which naturally result in a wide range of opinions) of the audience. I know all of those are opinions, but they appear to have relevancy to those unique individuals, they were honest opininons... Why do we feel these emotions? Why does this show have such a profound effect on people's mental state? The show itself may be the cause, but let's be logical and break it down further... To understand the material world around us, we must logically develop an understanding of its full complexities which is only possible if we also understand its simplest and most basic elements. To understand story of Kgne, we must logically determine its general meaning or theme and purpose which is only possible by understanding the cause and effect (actions, reactions and consequences) of events that actually occured within the 'reality' and time period of the show. What SPECIFICLY in the show causes people to become so emotional? Let me make an educated guess... When we see others harmed, we are harmed ourselves... When we see others benefit, we benefit ourselves... Rational questions you should ask yourself: What does the word benefit LOGICALLY [(not an opinion) based on an individual obviously benefiting in real-life] mean and include? What does the word harm LOGICALLY [(not an opinion) based on an individual obviously harmed in real-life] mean and include? Emotional, Mental, Physical elements must all be included to understand each of those questions, we must not exclude ANY OF THEM... Thus, just because we see some 'good' come out of action we cannot merely justify it as right or desirable because out of laziness we may be leaving out important facts.. In every case we must be sure that NO INTENTIONAL harm was caused ANYONE or the action was not the best possible choice because it could have been avoided or prevented. Lying always causes mental harm to liar themselves? YES or NO Ask yourself, if someone has the option of harming you or benefiting you which would you prefer they do everytime? Generalizations based on the above: When we see others sad, we can easily (FeeltheSame: we can allow ourselves to feel their emotions to better understand them) feel sad ourselves. When we see others in pain, we can easily (Feelthesame) feel in pain ourselves. When we see others feel guilty, we can easily (Feelthesame) feel guilty ourselves. etc................ While you watching KGnE did you allow yourself to be absorbed into the story, to become ONE with it seeing it as part of your own reality in order to understand it? The only way to do that is to not merely watch it or hear it but struggle to live in within it. If you actually allow yourself to become that focused, you no longer can view the story from a third-person view because what is happening to the characters in your imagination is happening directly TOO YOU. Thus, to develop a general theme or the purpose of its existence you need to integrate ALL(leaving not one, action, reaction or event out) of the basic facts which in this case are characters, actions, reactions, consequences, and events together to put all the pieces together into one unified complex and complete puzzle. I have already put the pieces together to develop a general pattern of events for myself, and my belief is clearly known and expressed. I can fully illustrate this as a scene-by-scene analysis [which never ends until all scenes have been integrated] and I have offered to do so previously. Anyone here can do this same process on their own, and yield the same results everytime, the story is static; its words are set in stone and will never change, not for me or anyone, and thus its theme, intent, or purpose will never change because it is a static unchanging story; not dynamic unwritten reality in which every individual can and should act their very best to benefit everyone. |
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2006-01-18, 18:27
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Link #55 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
So now about the "positive" aspects of lies: i kind of got the impression that you totally ignore those. for example as you criticized takayuki for renewing his oath with haruka in the hospital. you are right there are immoral and negative aspects to it: - promissing something he most probably wont be able to keep. - hurting her this way in the end. - loss of trust between friends - causeing her to get lost in her dreamworld ... The HARM caused by deception to both Takayuki and Haruka always outweighs any 'good' that might come out of it because it was INTENTIONAL and AVOIDABLE. I did not ignore the 'good' rather realized it did not result in NET BENEFITS and gave Takayuki an 'excuse' to avoid his own serious mental problems. Why do you keep ignoring Takayuki's own fantasy world (I have pointed it out time and time again and you never even acknowledged it exists. MEPHISTO remember the analogy story I gave you about the apple, Takayuki's depression depends on him deceiving himself into believing he is guilty for Haruka's accident and imagining himself in her place. Just like that imagined apple it DOES NOT EXIST and it requires him to keep punishing himself over and over for that guilt that DOES NOT EXIST...) that exists based on that very promise that he DID NOT keep, but still he still lives in? This FACT is the basis of the drama of show, and if Takayuki realized his problem at ANY point in the show, the damage to Mitsuki, Haruka, Akane etc. could have been minimized or prevented completely. IMPORTANT QUESTIONS SPECIFICLY RELATED TO KGnE: These questions are asked yet again because their answers have value. At this point, I am forced to presume the default answers are correct because no one has provided any other objective answers. 1. Do you believe was Takayuki depressed and mentally ill? "YES..." [Evidence: Takayuki grabs Haruka's comatose body and trys to leave the hospital...] YOUR ANSWER IS YES or NO If you argue or fail to respond, your answer is YES... 2. If you said YES to question number 1, What was the CAUSE of his depression? "He FEELS guilty for Haruka's accident, and PROMISED to always be with her, so he creates a fantasy world [imaginary apple] that he uses to punishes himself for failing to keep his promise to her..." YOUR ANSWER IS __________________________________ If you argue or fail to respond, your answer is the default answer above Any answer is acceptable on this question as long as you honestly answer based on your best knowledge and belief. Be as descriptive and detailed as possible. Failure to provide any answer leaves me to wonder if you agree with my rational assessment or dismiss my valid question without reason. THE REST OF THIS IS NON-KGnE SPECIFIC... If you are looking for character, or story discussions, I am asking for suggestions now... Ask ANY questions about KGnE, that you desire logical answers too, and if I determine I have time I willl give you an answer based on my best knowledge and belief. To help everyone better understand including yourself, ask the question as shown above with the answer you believe is correct above in QUOTES. To strengthen the value of your answer you can include EVIDENCE [ action that happened, maybe even the time in show it happened] You have the right to demand SOME response to your questions, because you questions and statement are just as important as anyone elses. MANY useful questions and answers are provided in previous discussions, if YOU DISAGREE, please respond and explain WHY you disagree as detailed as possible, so I can see if I made any logical errors. I have no problems with anyone making their opinions known, but to merely state your opinion is fact without any evidence to support it is to disrespect everyone here since you believe your words superior to anyone elses. I KNOW my words are completely worthess if no one reads them. At times it means seem I may be demanding you agree with me, I am not... Agree or disagree does not matter whatsoever as long as you are struggling to understand and keep your mind open to the possibility that it logically makes sense. I am struggling to teach and share any values that I have received through hard effort and tragic events that have happened in my life. I believe my life may have been saved because I refused allow others to make a decision 'For my own Good.' My life was on the line, and all I had to do was trust the doctors and family to make the decision, right? To this day, I have never regreted the decision, and will never blame anyone for its consquences if their are ever any. STRIKEN FROM THE RECORD because it was Void for Vagueness: No personal attack was intended in anyway, and was meant for discovery to better understand what others thought postive and negative effect meant... CALCULATING GOOD DECISIONS Mephisto, you seem to have an internal calculation that determines a good one from a bad one Is this the equation you use, or could you provide me yours? GOOD DECISION = 'postive effects' - 'negative effects' [Mephisto: I am just logically try to understand what you are saying, please help provide more facts, because I am left to presume the following:] Which could mean, killing one person is fine, as long as I save two or more! Are you sure you mean that? If so, I please stay away from me because I never want to be YOUR ONE! Logically GOOD DECISION = 'postive effects' + NO 'negative effects' Because all negative effects are undesirable if avoidable Once you add harm you can never remove it, and all of the good that occurs along with it depends on it. I strive not to use the terms 'good, postive, bad, negative' since they are vague, illogical and depend on ignoring facts out of laziness. If you wish to continue to use them, please qualify them by saying, 'My opinion of Good, Society's opinion of Good, My Opinion of postive effect, My opinion of negative effect' etc. Since, you never objectively define what you mean by those terms and expect the rest us to assume your 'good' is the same as our 'good'. That is not the case since I can define my good objectively as follows: To act 'good' is to honestly exterting maximum Disipline(gather all facts), Thought (understand and build new facts) and Control(act based on facts) to integrate ALL FACTS (not disregarding ONE FACT), to generate NET BENEFITS (emotional,mental, and physical) for everyone and NEVER CAUSING ANY INTENTIONAL HARM (emotional, mental and physical) to anyone. This 'good' never compromises or changes beliefs just to agree with the opinions of others. never ignores the value of life, always struggling to respect the lives of others. never dismisses an individual's right to live however they choose too. never lies or deceives to be 'good' for any reason since lying is and and will always be a choice that causes unneccessary harm. never dismisses facts out of laziness because missing facts may mean making a decision that might harm someone If you KNOW you will be causing INTENTIONAL HARM in any action to ANYONE including YOURSELF, you should reconsider it, because there is always a better action. Limitless possibilities exist in virtually every situation; making an purposefully harmful choice means ignoring numerous benefital ones that harm NO ONE, everytime. If you use force of any kind, threat (Demanding someone do something against their will), fraud (Using lies,deceptions and illusions to con them into acting against their will), direct force, to prevent someone from making a decision that effects their life, you are always causing harm because it is THEIR LIFE, not YOURS. Many individuals may be disregarding the importance, serious nature, and value of this topic, by merely dismissing it out of laziness. READ THE FOLLOW WORDS CAREFULLY: Every conscious life (yours included) is priceless irreplacable and of limitless value [NO ONE is greater or less then anyone else...everyone is EQUAL]. Every conscious individual (you included) has the right to use their mind and body however they choose as long as they do not cause harm to anyone else. Every conscious individual (you included) has the right to make ANY DECISIONS that effect their mind and body as long as it does not cause harm to anyone else. Every conscious individual (you included) has the right to receive ANY FACTS that effect their mind and body, even if they might be used to harm themselves. [just because you 'think' they don't need to know, why is your opinion more important then their life? Their next decision might depend on that information. Why don't you help them, rather then hurt them out of laziness?] Why should your OPINIONS, FEELINGS, CAUSES be greater then anyone else's? Why is your 'postive effect' (which did not consider the total picture) greater then the harm it causes, since intentional harm is avoidable? GOLDEN RULE: Start respecting yourself and everyone around you more, by following the GOLDEN RULE: Treat others as you want to be treated... If you lie to others, someone may lie to you... If you steal from others, someone may steal from you... If you kill anyone, someone may kill you... If you excuse any ONE harmful action, someone may also excuse ONE harmful action against YOU. THE excuse to take any harmful action: I am doing this for 'Your Own Good', or I felt this was would be 'positive' or not 'negative' for someone, or everyone. THE excuse to justify the consequences (HARM that should have NEVER OCCURED) received by the victim: I never meant for you to lose your friends,wife, health, wealth or life for it. But since, I never meant to harm you, its OK, I had your best interests at heart. I will strive to be more 'good or postive' next time, since it didn't turn out as I had expected. [I never should have taken that action, but I need to justify it, or confess my errors and learn from them. But since I was lazy in making the HARMFUL decision, I am also lazy in realizing it was HARMFUL in the first place.] Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-19 at 19:00. |
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2006-01-19, 06:31
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Link #56 | |
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otaku-hikikomori
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 37
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Quote:
"Anyone here can do this same process on their own, and yield the same results everytime, the story is static; its words are set in stone and will never change, not for me or anyone, and thus its theme, intent, or purpose will never change because it is a static unchanging story; not dynamic unwritten reality in which every individual can and should act their very best to benefit everyone." I believe that the fact that such a debate exists and there is a difference in opinion over what people gain/learn from the anime, then surely the point as stated by you above is wrong. The story itself is static, but what people draw from the anime is definitely dynamic and varies from person to person. I drew the analogy of a cup half-filled with water. Ask a million people about describing it, and while one may not get a million different responses, one may illicit at least a few thousand different answers. Why? The scene/object may be static, but what remains dynamic are the thoughts that pass through each and every one of these people's (those who were asked the question) minds. You might wish to share your views on this anime (which you claimed to have learnt that lying is wrong, the truth is the best, relating it to making good deeds/decisions etc.), but claiming that your view is the ONLY view (which are still definitely not facts btw) is incorrect. As for your debate about the absoluteness of what terms as a "good decision", I would say I do not agree. If I were to die so that the whole world would continue to live on, I'd definitely do it. Not to do it would be pure selfishness and folly, after all, even if you do not die now, you'll die later because of your selfishness. What terms as a "good decision" is relative. Why? Because each and every human (homo sapien) on this earth has different ideals, cultures, upbringing, experiences etc. which would definitely tint their outlook towards what a "good decision" would be. What you stated as your definition of a "good decision" only acts as a guideline for what terms as a "good decision". Take for example, World War 2. Tell me, was the decision for the US to enter the war on the side of the allies the correct decision? Generally, it was widely regarded as a good decision, as it helped to restore democracy to the world and put a stop to all the atrocities which the Nazis had been carrying out on the Jews and other monority races then. Yet, view it again from the perspective of a pair of parents who lost all their children to the war. To them, was it a good decision? No. Please do not tell me that the US could have negotiated with the Axis powers. They did, yet the Axis powers did not relent. The US could have, like what you said, refuse to help (refusing to get killed to save the whole world) and save her citizens... but what about the rest of Europe and Asia? Think about it. The definition of "good" and "bad" and "harmful" or "beneficial" is everchanging and relative, never static and fixed. I just wanted to prove that point.
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2006-01-19, 12:15
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Link #57 | |
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anime4life
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 35
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Quote:
Well...I didnt thought of especially you as someone to discriminate or exclude anyone becuase of their opinion or beliefs, which you intended to do by your statement that i should "stay away from you" depending on whether you got me wrong or right. But to aswere whether you got me wrong or right is not that easy to be answered, because you kind of got me right and mixed it up with false assumptions and add a in my opinion unresonable argumentation to it. I think, calculating a good/bad decision like [value of the "positive effects" in the idividuals opinion which is influenced and based on society - value of the "negative effects" in the individuals opinion which is influenced and based on society] is not only my own arrogant way of calculating good and bad decisions, but everyones and even yours, as everyones brain makes this calculation unintentionally as well. Being selfish/egoistic or selfless depends on how much you value positive and negative effects that effect yourself. However im not like you described me with [killing one person is right if you save two others]. Its a bad example because the act of killing is considered very bad by me, you and society. You can see the importance of the "killing" in you scenario if you alter it just by a little bit like [sacrificing yourself is considered "good" and "nobel" if you save two or more lifes with it]. Society would even accept [killing a terrorist if you save two or more hostages with it]. I think its false and ignorant denying my stated calculation with you calculation of [good decision=positive effect + NO negative effect]. This would not only be a good decision but a "must-do" decision where everyone whould decide the same way and you would maybe even considered someone as stupid if he made a different decision. Decisions where there is no negative effect at all are rare or small decisions we make unintentionally in out everydaylife. I think to prove this i have to explain to you what a "hard decision" acctually is. You know what makes a hard decision hard? Hard is to consider the value of the various effects your decision has; may it be [deciding between 2 possibilities and consider one or the other positive effect greater that comes with it] or [deciding to make a certain thing or not by valueing either the positive or negative effects greater that comes with it] or [deciding between 2 possibilities by considering one or the other negative effect as greater]. Simply a decision that has positive effects but no negative at all would be what we call a "easy decision". QUOTE: Why should your OPINIONS, FEELINGS, CAUSES be greater then anyone else's? Why is your 'postive effect' (which did not consider the total picture) greater then the harm it causes, since intentional harm is avoidable? And its not like my personal calculation would be egoistic the moment it is my personal calculation, because first of all our personality is strongly influenced and even builed and based upon society and our DNA, same as our opinions are influences by society. That makes recomprihensible decision out of a personal calculation. secondly decisions are something we do for ourselfes and depend on personality and opinions. Therefor they are our personal calculation in any way. thirdly my personal OPINIONS, FEELINGS, CAUSES might not be greater or more right or better than any others, but as i said only i make my own decisions anyway and its not right to blame any calculation as egoistic before even seeing the result of the calculation. As i allready said as well im only egoistic as i value effects that affect me more that those that affect others; and im only selfless as i value effects that affect others more than those that affect myself ,same as if my decisions dont aggre/correspond to society/majority they will be considered unresonable or resonable and comprehensive if they do, and though its not right to blame the calculation as just for being a calculation, and in my opinion even if you say you are not doing this calculation your brain is doing it unintentionally and automaticaly while you doesnt realize it. I hope and think,if you understand me now, you will agree to my opinion about calculation of decisions becuase its in my opinion obviously more resonable and proven with arguments than yours. (ps: ive allready heared of what you call the golden rule and i can agree to it and i think/hope that im living like it.) |
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2006-01-19, 16:10
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Link #58 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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TO EVERYONE HERE PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:
I had no intention of telling anyone how to make decisions based on my formula or anyones formula. EVERYONE makes their decisions based on there own evaluation of the each situation. It would be IMMORAL for me to demand individuals make decisions based on my own values, and I NEVER HAVE and NEVER WILL DO SO. THE PURPOSE of discussing MORALS is provide tools to help everyone better understand the decisions they make in their life, not force them to make any decision other then one they choose. MEPHISTO, I was asking you to explain what you meant by 'postive and negative effect' and that scenerio was not directed to you specificly but to ask you clearly what you meant. That is a fair question, what is your opinion of postive and negative effect since you have never formally defined those paramaters. If you take it as personal attack, you are mistaken, it was never meant as such. I even prepared you for that statement, honestly asking you correct any errors in that calculation, never intended to harm you in anyway. If you take it as insult which seems you have, you do so without rationally realizing I was confused about your statements and wanted your words to clarify them. If it was bad example, why didn't you clearly explain in explicit detail what you meant by making decisions based on postive and negative effect. KOKANADEN, "That in itself is a fatal flaw in your argument. Can one be immersed in the plot yet remained objective and logical? I seriously doubt so." What reason did you get immersed into the plot of the story? To avoid reality, OF COURSE I AGREE with you here, you couldn't be objective because you told your mind and body not be objective in the first place. But if you immersed yourself, became so focused on UNDERSTANDING the story that you used your IMAGINATION to better understand the Emotional, Mental, and Physical elements of the story, you could definitely be objective. It would be hard work mentally to keep focused on the story, but if refused to accept anything less then FULL understanding of the story, YOU can do it! And because you can return to ANY POINT in the story at at time, you can review it over and over again until objectively understand it. Every human being is capable of being that focused to learn anything. Nothing is impossible learn or understand because your own mind is not limited unless YOU place the limits on it. Opinions of the story based on PERSONAL PREFERENCES (which include anything someone determines based on their emotions) will of course be different because they are only fact for those people who agree with those opinions. Objective facts never change because they are entirely based on reality that can objectively be found IDENTICALLY by anyone who integrates all the facts and refuses to accept anything except the very best - values, ideas, concepts that they will now daily use in their own lives because they ALWAYS make logical sense and will NEVER conflict with reality because they are FACT. The tools you need to understand the story, the ability to understand the nature of actions (not good or bad, right or wrong, but NET BENEFITIAL, or HARMFUL) is essential to grasping the whole story. To displace or ignore the importance of every single action is to basicly disregard the story as a whole. The good decision section was placed to ask OPINIONS on what others believed was a good decisions. So, I could better understand where they came from, maybe even developing guidelines or rules based on their person preference for a decision. It was NEVER INTENDED to state I always know the answers in EVERY SITUTATION. I do NOT because its up to every individual to make that decision on their own. Every word typed here by myself is meant for LEARNING ONLY, what you do with information is entirely up to you. If throw it away like stale garbage, and never use any of it, you don't benefit from it. I will never throw what is said away and consider it for value, I am always gleaning new values from the discussion because I will use EVERYTHING I learn, because I LOVE TO LEARN. My sincerest hope is somone understands my words, and immediately realizes the benefits of being honest, refuses to accept anything but honesty from others, and immediately begins to live a better happier life. No longer making excuses for living, and start living because they love and value their life. IF GOOD DECISION CALCULATION needs to be striken from the record, provide what grounds for its dismissal, I will honor any reasonable request because I am respective of everyone. Even if my comments seem harsh, they are so to keep you focused on the goal, developing an COMMON understanding of the story because such an understanding is NOT impossible because logic and facts never change and my opinion did not determine my purpose here. If that was the case, I would have just said XXXXX demand you believe me and leave because I didn't care about you comments. I do care about your comments (continually providing evidence to support my claims that no one has disputed with valid evidence of their own) and will admit my error, if you objectively find any error based on facts you gather and present. I have no desire to WIN or LOSE this discussion (such a reason for a discussion has no value because WIN or LOSE is based on someone's opinion) only learn and benefit myself and others from it. As such please struggle to see BENEFIT as a BENEFIT, struggle to see HARM as it is HARM or continue to ignore their value because of an excuse 'My opinion' I await your honest replies... Last edited by bxtor; 2006-01-20 at 02:05. |
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2006-01-19, 20:15
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Link #59 | ||
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
I did not call the golden rule, or create it, and refuse ANY credit for it because it has existed long before I was born. Thus, it as a 'RULE' has stood the test of time, because if it was merely a lie (which it is not), it would have disappeared long ago. A big smile appears on my face when I think about the GOLDEN RULE. Within that very simple one line: "Treat Others as you want to be Treated..." exists EVERY VALUE I have struggled to understand and struggled(it sometimes seems in vain) to share. Thus, to follow the GOLDEN RULE completely means: 1. NEVER LYING to ANYONE for ANY REASON, because you would not want them to LIE to you. (What if you lie to someone who believes this true, and blindly believes what you told them. Will you accept the consequences NO MATTER HOW SEVERE THEY ARE when they harm someone else based on your information?) 2. NEVER CAUSING INTENTIONAL HARM to ANYONE for ANY REASON, because you would not want them to HARM you. 3. ALWAYS benefiting others with honest facts, because you would want others to benefit you with honest facts as well. 4. To compromise and cause harm (threats, fraud (failure to honestly answer a question that IS IMPORTANT to that person's life), or force of any kind) to even ONE individual in ONE specific situation, means ONE individual might do the same to you in ONE specific situation of their choosing. To actually believe and follow the GOLDEN RULE means also agreeing to this definition: To act HONESTLY is dynamic, life-building, constantly growing and does not depend on opinions rather rational discipline, thought and control to fully integrate all the facts into reality developing maximum NET BENEFITS (NO INTENTIONAL HARM IS ACCEPTABLE) and VALUES for the CONSCIOUS INDIVIDUAL and SOCIETY. Because in order to respect the lives of yourself and others, means NEVER accepting anything less then the VERY BEST EVERYTIME. It is never easy to make HARD DECISIONS and consequences exist for every decision. Seperating intentional harm 'negative effects' created to escape reality [THE WORST ONES] and is more common then the common cold , 'negative effects' based on reality and those 'negative effects' that MAY HAPPEN based on making the choice is important. A lot of harm (almost all of it) caused in real-life occurs for NO REASON, with the victim as innocent as a little child who was abused by her step-father. The child did nothing wrong, but still suffered! The criminality of such an act makes my blood boil [I hold my anger in check but I would never trust him because he treats life as worthless] because the child was in his care and his responsibility. Had he simply followed the GOLDEN RULE, struggled to understand the reality and harm he was about to inflict, a ton bricks would have smashed on top of his head, and he would have seen the criminality of his actions. How can anyone justify this action? But someone did or the action would have never occured, the step-father believed it was OK. Please consider this example honestly and not just dismiss it as 'bad' because it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY. Quote:
Ask yourself, why would you lie in this case? What was your reason? 'FOR HIS OWN GOOD'? [You lied because it is EASY and required little or no effort, maybe even out of FEAR that it would harm him to be honest. But reality was ugly, and the devestation and harm from the 'accident' was already there and will NEVER GO AWAY. You lied so you wouldn't have to honestly extert maximum effort to gather all the facts and provide an honest valuable answer that he asked for and deserved. If you didn't want to provide an honest one, you always have the option of providing NO ANSWER AT ALL, because that is always better then lying. Were you a honest individual before this incident that valued honesty? If so, you just destroyed your principles and compromised your beliefs for that one lie. Congratulations, you are free to lie anytime you want now because you compromised (and there was no gun pointed to your head that made you do, it was your free-will) and you can always compromise again because you determined your beliefs had no value and tossed them worthlessly aside like stale garbage. The 'GOOD' provided came at a sacrifice to yourself, and your mind will forever know that you criminally lied, no one caught you and you got by with it. You are still guilty and will forever be guilty. If he dies you will never get a chance to confess this lie or never learn from it.] What VALUE did you CREATE for him? You say he is happy, but do realize that happiness based on a lie is worthless? If he were to realize that it is a lie (and that is possible say say a doctor or nurse didn't realize you lied and said, 'We are doing everything we can for you family, but they aren't good Sir' HONEST FACT that conflicts with your words), every bit of the happiness is drained out of him and even greater sadness and pain take its place! Oh so that won't happen you say, how do you know for sure that might not happen unless you knock out anyone around that might tell him the honest facts [facts that exist for everyone except him since you denied him the right to know]? You justify this IMMORAL act because he won't live much longer and thus he will NEVER know your deception. If you justify lying to a man that won't live much longer, and he just HAPPENS to live longer, will you come clean and confess your deception? Or will you continue to hide it for his own good? Once you lied the first time, admitting you were wrong will be much harder since you justified it as being for his own good. Thus why should you admit you were wrong? It was for his own good, its ok to lie in that case, so you'll continue to justify your deception until he discovers it, you admit to it, or he dies in which case you never have to admit you were wrong. Lying is like a drug; On the surface it looks 'GOOD', further abuse slowly causes the bad to come closer to the surface, and when that bad is finally revealed in its true ugly, painful, sad form, no 'GOOD' actually remains, because it was never there in the first place. He asked you a question, because he wanted an answer, not because he didn't want to know, but because he did want to know. Did he ask you comfort him with worthless lies, or valuable words based on the sincere honest hope that his family was alright? You could have responded in several ways and benefited this man... But CHOOSE to ease his pain with temporary fix (cause harm somewhere else so he forgets about his real problem. EXAMPLE: If your toe hurts, smash your head against the concrete, now your toe still hurts but your head hurts worse so you forget all about your toe. ) that not only did not cover the wound, but created another wound that also needs to be fixed. You took his MORAL request for FACTS that he had THE RIGHT TO ASK FOR and dismissed that RIGHT as worthless garbage, and also devalued him as individual. MORALLY if someone asks you a question, you should answer it honestly or provide no answer at all; anything less including dismissing the question as irrelevant is to devalue the individual who asked the question as worthless. Since your provided a NON-ANSWER (lie) that not only did not satisfy the question, you didn't believe the answer yourself... You considered your OPINION HIGHER then that man's life, and that is inexcusable because it is not just your life you are harming but someone elses. |
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2006-01-20, 07:01
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Link #60 | |
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otaku-hikikomori
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 37
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Quote:
The fact that everyone here has a different opinion of what a good decision is already means that there is NO COMMON/STANDARD definition of what terms as a "good decision". There can be a general consensus, like "yes a good decision should have one or more of the following traits, like....." but never "a good decision IS and MUST be..." Again, another contradiction I spotted the first time I scanned through your post: First you said: "The good decision section was placed to ask OPINIONS on what others believed was a good decisions. So, I could better understand where they came from, maybe even developing guidelines or rules based on their person preference for a decision. It was NEVER INTENDED to state I always know the answers in EVERY SITUTATION. I do NOT because its up to every individual to make that decision on their own. Every word typed here by myself is meant for LEARNING ONLY, what you do with information is entirely up to you. If throw it away like stale garbage, and never use any of it, you don't benefit from it. I will never throw what is said away and consider it for value, I am always gleaning new values from the discussion because I will use EVERYTHING I learn, because I LOVE TO LEARN." Then you said: "Even if my comments seem harsh, they are so to keep you focused on the goal, developing an COMMON understanding of the story because such an understanding is NOT impossible because logic and facts never change and my opinion did not determine my purpose here." So are you insinuating in your latter paragraph quoted that YOUR understanding of the story is absolute and THE CORRECT one because IT was based on facts, and that facts and logic cannot be wrong? Then what about the former paragraph quoted from your post that your reason for posting was to get others' ideas on what constituted as a "good idea"? So do you want us to provide you with opinions or just conform to the "supposed" common understanding you have so-called derived with your superb fact finding and logic? Which contradicted again with your first paragraph. I quote: "I had no intention of telling anyone how to make decisions based on my formula or anyones formula. EVERYONE makes their decisions based on there own evaluation of the each situation. It would be IMMORAL for me to demand individuals make decisions based on my own values, and I NEVER HAVE and NEVER WILL DO SO. THE PURPOSE of discussing MORALS is provide tools to help everyone better understand the decisions they make in their life, not force them to make any decision other then one they choose." "To avoid reality, OF COURSE I AGREE with you here, you couldn't be objective because you told your mind and body not be objective in the first place. But if you immersed yourself, became so focused on UNDERSTANDING the story that you used your IMAGINATION to better understand the Emotional, Mental, and Physical elements of the story, you could definitely be objective. It would be hard work mentally to keep focused on the story, but if refused to accept anything less then FULL understanding of the story, YOU can do it! And because you can return to ANY POINT in the story at at time, you can review it over and over again until objectively understand it. Every human being is capable of being that focused to learn anything. Nothing is impossible learn or understand because your own mind is not limited unless YOU place the limits on it." If you're talking about being objective here by looking at an issue FROM EVERY POSSIBLE ANGLE, then coming up with a conclusion, I'd definitely agree with you. However, if you tell me to get emotionally involved from a first person perspective, I'll tell you now, its never possible to be objective. Its human nature to be affected/biased towards a an issue because we all NOT MERELY THINKING CREATURES BUT FEELING CREATURES. Go figure this out. Either you have a seriously flawed view towards humans, or you need to improve on your elaboration of your points. "The good decision section was placed to ask OPINIONS on what others believed was a good decisions. So, I could better understand where they came from, maybe even developing guidelines or rules based on their person preference for a decision. It was NEVER INTENDED to state I always know the answers in EVERY SITUTATION. I do NOT because its up to every individual to make that decision on their own. Every word typed here by myself is meant for LEARNING ONLY, what you do with information is entirely up to you. If throw it away like stale garbage, and never use any of it, you don't benefit from it. I will never throw what is said away and consider it for value, I am always gleaning new values from the discussion because I will use EVERYTHING I learn, because I LOVE TO LEARN." Are you sure this section is called the "good decision" section? Please read the section title again and then tell me. I've read through every page of the thread and I have to put it very bluntly that the topic went way off track only with the inclusion of your "thesis-like' reply to a very simple question. "You lied because it is EASY and required little or no effort, maybe even out of FEAR that it would harm him to be honest. But reality was ugly, and the devestation and harm from the 'accident' was already there and will NEVER GO AWAY. You lied so you wouldn't have to honestly extert maximum effort to gather all the facts and provide an honest valuable answer that he asked for and deserved. If you didn't want to provide an honest one, you always have the option of providing NO ANSWER AT ALL, because that is always better then lying." Are you sure that was the easy decision? Are you sure that after the "supposed" gathering of all the facts, there would be an alternative in providing a "win-win" situation where no lies could be told and yet the man dies happily? And you know, SILENCE IS NOT ALWAYS GOLDEN. I'll tell you right to the face now that the man will die eyes wide OPEN if there is no reply, and I've personally experienced it. I can also tell you now that telling you that telling him the truth is pure selfishness. For the sake of one's clarity of conscience, you push the pain and shock on a man who is ALREADY dying? Thats purely disgusting, and I have little regard for such a person. I'd rather take the stain of lying on my conscience, and know that the man will die at least happily, WITH HIS EYES CLOSED. And if he doesn't die and survives, why I'd happily admit my lie and tell him the truth. No one is devalued by being told a white lie. The real crime is when people are so inflexible and stuck with their own views that they fail to see the REALITY of life. Which is you, bxtor. A man on his deathbed, worrying about his right to know, or does he really want assurance and comfort instead? THINK FOR OTHERS, not for your own self-professed pompous sense of righteousness. This is why I said this thread is going nowehere, because we're debating with someone so stuck in his views I find it pointless to carry on, which is why I told DarkCntry to stop it. Have we ever rejected the claims that Honesty should be a value to abide by? No. What we are rejecting is the claim that Honesty HAS AND MUST be abided by at all times. Have we ever rejected the view (I insist that it is a view, not a fact, or a common udnerstanding everyone will eventually derive when they supposedly attain "enlightenment") that KGNE was about lies? No. But everyone has a different lesson to take home after watching the anime; based on their background, their environment, their religion, their culture, your language, race, country etc. On the other hand, our points, however valid, are never correct. This will be my last post on this thread until the topic of discussion shifts again, as the main point of me entering this discussion, is again, to disprove the fallacies being expounded and packaged in such a long reply with seemingly sound examples (because the words objective, fact/logic is so often thrown in indiscrimmnately) that people tend to be awed and convinced by the argument. I wanted to expose that, and to provide a counter view to it, so that people can view the issue from 2 angles, and then choose what to believe, or evolve a new view themselves. I dun forsee the long replies stopping soon though, which also explains why there are so much lesser people posting now in this thread. I'm not going to report this to the mod, I don't see the need to. P.S. A personal comment is NEVER OBJECTIVE. In fact, truly speaking, objectivity is NEVER possible in real life, only close/near objectivity. Which was mentioned in one of your first replies to DarkCntry.
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Fly since ↔...
