Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

You're still missing the point. Innovator or not, Setsuna was a better pilot in an inferior machine up against superior machines. His "Flag custom" only had the upgrade of some missiles and a sword/rifle. It did not have upgraded maneuverability, upgraded armor, upgraded anything for the core structure of the Flag. And he still came out on top using brilliant tactics.

Kira, in the same position, was a better pilot in an inferior machine up against (supposedly) superior machines. The only upgrade he had was an altered Striker Pack whose upgrade only works in the atmosphere anyway. He was pretty much stuck in the same position as Setsuna, and despite a stunning series of successes in an inferior machine (as the Strike is somewhat inferior planetside, due to being designed for space combat) and brilliant tactics against pilots who had far more experience in battle (like Waltfeld, in a machine that can one-shot the Strike and was designed for its environment, not to mention the victories against the Le Crueset/Zala team). And he still failed and needed an upgraded suit just to achieve victory.

Shield or not, there is absolutely nothing in previous experiences on the two shows with Kira to say that he could not have defeated the enemy strike force with the Strike Rouge. The only reason that he failed is because the writer wanted to show off the Strike Freedom curbstomping all opposition.

This action, however, makes it pretty inconsistent for Kira compared to everything before.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And the Strike Rouge had the Ultimate Coordinator, a veteran from a war two years ago, and is one of the absolute best pilots in the SEED universe. What's your point?

A major plot point in Gundam Seed is that Coordinators are still humans, and not really all that superior to naturals. That's why you have several ace pilot naturals like Mu La Flaga, and Edward Harrelson and some naturals are even able to pass themselves off as coordinators. Being the "Ultimate Coordinator" simply means that Kira was given the intended attributes.

On the other hand Gundam 00 makes it clear that Innovators are a new species, they live a lot longer than humans, and are superior in every way.

[LightMaster]

Kira, in the same position, was a better pilot in an inferior machine up against (supposedly) superior machines. The only upgrade he had was an altered Striker Pack whose upgrade only works in the atmosphere anyway. He was pretty much stuck in the same position as Setsuna, and despite a stunning series of successes in an inferior machine (as the Strike is somewhat inferior planetside, due to being designed for space combat) and brilliant tactics against pilots who had far more experience in battle (like Waltfeld, in a machine that can one-shot the Strike and was designed for its environment, not to mention the victories against the Le Crueset/Zala team). And he still failed and needed an upgraded suit just to achieve victory.

The situation wasn't the same though, there were key differences, big key differences even. I'm not going to pretend like I remember the scene with Setsuna perfectly, fairly certain however there were less enemies to deal with. They were centralized too, three of them all in nearly the same exact place. Kira could have handled that easily. But when you've got a number of Mobile Suits flying around in different areas you can't watch everything...he couldn't shoot the ZAKU simply because he didn't have time, barely made it to block it.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

A major plot point in Gundam Seed is that Coordinators are still humans, and not really all that superior to naturals. That's why you have several ace pilot naturals like Mu La Flaga, and Edward Harrelson and some naturals are even able to pass themselves off as coordinators. Being the "Ultimate Coordinator" simply means that Kira was given the intended attributes.

On the other hand Gundam 00 makes it clear that Innovators are a new species, they live a lot longer than humans, and are superior in every way.

That's nice and all, but until SEED starts backing up the "Ultimate Coordinator isn't very special" idea they keep spouting, I'm going to keep believing the Ultimate Coordinator really is that. You and I both know that was the whole bloody point of Kira being the Ultimate Coordinator.

And it still does not change the fact that Kira is one of the best MS pilots in the entire bloody SEED franchise, if not the best, so that still doesn't excuse Kira's sudden subpar performance before getting the Strike Freedom.

[tetsuo69]

monster has said pretty much what i wanted, there no way anyone else in kira place could had done anything else while trying to take a shot for eternal from the gunner zaku.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

This is the same director who said that the only newtypes in SEED are Rau and Mwu, 3 years later in Destiny, guess what? Kira is one now, and Arguably, Lacus is one too.

Didn't Fukuda claim that Kira's Newtype Flash was just an homage to MSG?

This is the same guy who's said that Kira and Lacus are the intended antagonists for the show despite them hogging the focus of the story for the second half of Destiny.

Fukuda didn't say that, but he was quoted as saying that Kira/the Archangel Crew were "straying from the path of justice".

If what fukuda says was true, then It's another point for SEED and Destiny being Twilight! With Mobile Suits.

Comparing Chiaki Morosawa to Stephenie Meyer is an insult to Stephenie Meyer.

...if only Lacus' characterization wasn't Bellaish...

At least in the original Twilight novels, they were told in a first-person perspective, from Bella's point of view.

I don't know how the viewers can sympathize with Lacus.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Comparing Chiaki Morosawa to Stephenie Meyer is an insult to Stephenie Meyer.

At least in the original Twilight novels, they were told in a first-person perspective, from Bella's point of view.

I don't know how the viewers can sympathize with Lacus.

Ohh my god, I know Seed isn't perfect, and Lacus is inherently flawed, but I'd sympathize with her over Bella any day. Leaving the Mary Sue stuff aside, at least Lacus has a cause and purpose in life and isn't focussed solely on being an eternal doormat to a pedophile stalker with sexuality issues.
Twilight is an awful, awful book in which absolutely everything is wrong and you need to read the thing back and forth to come up with at least one thing that was well-done or that's positive or sends any messages that aren't disturbing and/or misogynistic or plain retarded.
At least Seed, despite it's sometimes huge flaws has some good characters/ mech/ story that still keep people invested enough to want to watch a remaster years later.

Twilight has none of that going for itself, the plot doesn't exist, not one character is likable and everyone is pathetic to the core.

As much as Seed isn't perfect, and as much as I hate defending Morosawa, but she's done a much better job than Meyer ever did or could- we have to at least give her that.

Funny about your sig btw, thanks for clarifying I so hoped it was an actual interview, because that would just be hilarious (it still is, but you know what I mean).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Shield or not, there is absolutely nothing in previous experiences on the two shows with Kira to say that he could not have defeated the enemy strike force with the Strike Rouge. The only reason that he failed is because the writer wanted to show off the Strike Freedom curbstomping all opposition.

This action, however, makes it pretty inconsistent for Kira compared to everything before.

Oh, there's no doubt that Strike Freedom was the point of it. But that doesn't mean there's any inconsistency in Kira's behavior.

All you're doing is comparing it to cases where Kira had his phase shift armor and/or his shield to help him back in SEED. And neither of those proved effective in this particular scene.

So, again, I must ask: Where is the inconsistency on Kira's part?

- Is it because Kira tried to block an incoming shot aimed at another target?
He's done that before in SEED.

- Is it because he came barging into a battle?
He's done that before in SEED.

- Is it because he managed to dodge several shots aimed at him?
He's done that before in SEED.

- Is it because he managed to score hits on multiple targets in a very short time?
He's done that before in SEED.

The only thing that's different here is that his suit was damaged when blocking a shot. That's it.
And that says more about the difference in technology than it does about Kira as a pilot.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Ohh my god, I know Seed isn't perfect, and Lacus is inherently flawed, but I'd sympathize with her over Bella any day. Leaving the Mary Sue stuff aside, at least Lacus has a cause and purpose in life and isn't focussed solely on being an eternal doormat to a pedophile stalker with sexuality issues.
Twilight is an awful, awful book in which absolutely everything is wrong and you need to read the thing back and forth to come up with at least one thing that was well-done or that's positive or sends any messages that aren't disturbing and/or misogynistic or plain retarded.
At least Seed, despite it's sometimes huge flaws has some good characters/ mech/ story that still keep people invested enough to want to watch a remaster years later.

Lacus Clyne is a traditional Yamato Nadeshiko, nothing really to like but at the same time nothing to really hate. She's a character you can find a copy of in several places (most famously Belldandy from Oh My Goddess). There are far worse characters that I can think of who are obnoxious, and are treated like they are some great person.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Lacus Clyne is a traditional Yamato Nadeshiko, nothing really to like but at the same time nothing to really hate. She's a character you can find a copy of in several places (most famously Belldandy from Oh My Goddess). There are far worse characters that I can think of who are obnoxious, and are treated like they are some great person.

that's what I was trying to say, more or less ^^' There are some things to like about her though, whereas there's nothing to like about Bella- who is just one example of those "far worse characters" imo.

I would actually credit Lacus for being a bit more than just a Yamato Nadeshiko however, for some of the better things she does.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I would actually credit Lacus for being a bit more than just a Yamato Nadeshiko however, for some of the better things she does.

Cut-N-Paste from one of my posts...

Here are some of the things that Lacus has accomplished (as of GSD):

• Idol singer
• Resistance leader
• TSA/Terminal figurehead (she left the actual commanding to Cagalli, Andrew, and Murrue, aboard their respective ships)
• “Piloted” the Infinite Justice* (no, the video games don't count)
• Seed Mode (debatable, since her Seed burst isn't shown)
• Possible ZAFT chairwoman

*"I didn't really do much. I just kept the seat warm." -- Lacus, GSD, Phase 42, dubbed version
"Yes. I was merely sitting in it." -- Lacus, GSD, Phase 42, subbed version

[HasuMasu]

Oh come on, it's not that difficult to see that they needed to make the Strike Freedom look as Godly as possible, an easy way to do that is to show it beating the shit out of guys who were owning just a while ago...it's not difficult to get that.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

Oh come on, it's not that difficult to see that they needed to make the Strike Freedom look as Godly as possible, an easy way to do that is to show it beating the shit out of guys who were owning just a while ago...it's not difficult to get that.

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. (Or maybe I missed it.)

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by monster

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. (Or maybe I missed it.)

It's not like I was aiming it at anyone, I skimmed the past few pages and this is a response to what I gathered.

[rakusukira]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Ohh my god, I know Seed isn't perfect, and Lacus is inherently flawed, but I'd sympathize with her over Bella any day. Leaving the Mary Sue stuff aside, at least Lacus has a cause and purpose in life and isn't focussed solely on being an eternal doormat to a pedophile stalker with sexuality issues.
Twilight is an awful, awful book in which absolutely everything is wrong and you need to read the thing back and forth to come up with at least one thing that was well-done or that's positive or sends any messages that aren't disturbing and/or misogynistic or plain retarded.
At least Seed, despite it's sometimes huge flaws has some good characters/ mech/ story that still keep people invested enough to want to watch a remaster years later.

Twilight has none of that going for itself, the plot doesn't exist, not one character is likable and everyone is pathetic to the core.

As much as Seed isn't perfect, and as much as I hate defending Morosawa, but she's done a much better job than Meyer ever did or could- we have to at least give her that.

Funny about your sig btw, thanks for clarifying I so hoped it was an actual interview, because that would just be hilarious (it still is, but you know what I mean).

seriously?? I would pick SEEd over Twilight anyday!! Twilight, IMO is a bland book.. twilight tries to show us how SUPER HARD it is to chose a boyfriend.. at least Harry Potter series tries to depict bravery, courage and all of those good cliches..

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

• Idol singer
• Resistance leader
• TSA/Terminal figurehead

I mostly meant these things. Sure, in some cases it's a bit unrealistic that she got there, and probably it's Morosawa's way of making her more awesome... but she should get credit for these things and probably her ability to reason with people etc.
What I'm saying is, despite the issues with her characterization, she isn't anywhere near as bad as some others- such as Bella (ugh)

Originally Posted by rakusukira

seriously?? I would pick SEEd over Twilight anyday!! Twilight, IMO is a bland book.. twilight tries to show us how SUPER HARD it is to chose a boyfriend.. at least Harry Potter series tries to depict bravery, courage and all of those good cliches..

... just because I'm not entirely sure: Are you misunderstanding me, or am I misunderstanding you? ^^' Because that's what I said, in response to Washu-chan saying Twilight beats Lacus: that I'd prefer Lacus over anyone from Twilight any day and that Twilight is a dreadful book.
I'm a bit confused o____o

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Cut-N-Paste from one of my posts...

Here are some of the things that Lacus has accomplished (as of GSD):

• Idol singer
• Resistance leader
• TSA/Terminal figurehead (she left the actual commanding to Cagalli, Andrew, and Murrue, aboard their respective ships)
• “Piloted” the Infinite Justice* (no, the video games don't count)
• Seed Mode (debatable, since her Seed burst isn't shown)
• Possible ZAFT chairwoman

*"I didn't really do much. I just kept the seat warm." -- Lacus, GSD, Phase 42, dubbed version
"Yes. I was merely sitting in it." -- Lacus, GSD, Phase 42, subbed version

Most of those are related to each other (and TSA leader, and resistance leader are talking about the same thing), all that amounts to is that Lacus is a leader who has good singing abilities. I don't see much problem in that, to me she's just a fairly bland person who does get a really good scene in now and then.

[Rising Dragon]

If the SEED mode is true, then that's genetic and something she couldn't develop on her own, so that doesn't really count.

As for her being a resistance leader, that's probably referring to when she was hiding from Zala's cronies while making her anti-war propaganda speeches before she and the others stole the Eternal.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I mostly meant these things. Sure, in some cases it's a bit unrealistic that she got there, and probably it's Morosawa's way of making her more awesome... but she should get credit for these things and probably her ability to reason with people etc.

I already mentioned this: the problem with Lacus is that out of the key players of Seed and GSD, she doesn't have much of a backstory on how she became what she is. We already knew Kira's and Athrun's origins throughout Seed, and how did Shinn became what he is in GSD.

If Fukuda's interviews are to be believed, this is what he said concerning Lacus's lack of a backstory:

Originally Posted by Mitsuo Fukuda

People say they don't really understand Lacus and even the staff don't. Only I and Morozawa [sic] know her. Her personality never changed from the start.

Is Fukuda trying to give Lacus a Wolverine-like origin (i.e., Lacus's origins are shrouded in mystery)?

I think what both Seed and GSD needs is an Episode Zero-like manga to give or expand the backstories for the major characters.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Is Fukuda trying to give Lacus a Wolverine-like origin (i.e., Lacus's origins are shrouded in mystery)?

I think you're thinking into that statement too much. He's just saying that he and Morosawa only understand Lacus the best because they created her in the first place.