2010-12-02, 18:20 | Link #19321 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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But seriously guys re-read EP5 first scene, it only takes about 1 minute. Dont be surprised if EP8 has path choices and you decide to take the proposed happy lovey dovey route only to have the witch kill of the furniture and taunt you in the face.
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2010-12-02, 18:28 | Link #19322 |
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Well, I think we should remember all of the scenes hinting about Beatrice. There was a fairly huge portion of EP4 describing Maria's and Ange's lives, saying that they were 'witches'. And then, we hear Ange say that the only way to understand Beatrice is to understand witches. Reading through that section again, it seems to me that it's a pretty direct hint that "Beatrice" is the same sort of kid as Maria and Ange. i.e. extremely introverted, lonely, bullied a lot, creates lots of imaginary friends to pass time, and wants that imaginary world to be acknowledged by those around them (though most strongly in Maria's case). Since we also know that someone was playing witches with Maria a lot, and it's hard to imagine an ulterior motive for that, there's plenty of evidence that a person matching this description lives on the island.
Also, everyone knows about the evidence that Beatrice might have been a servant, and that both Shannon and Kanon were likely candidates (especially because we see them meeting Beatrice in EP2, which is the same sort of 'meeting' that Ange has with MARIA and the stakes). Plus, if we follow the definition of 'witch' that applies to Ange and Maria, Beatrice is almost certainly either a kid or a child-like person. Just put those two things together, imagine a servant living a life similar to Maria's, and I think that gives you Yasu pretty clearly. And all based on evidence from EP4 and before.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-12-02 at 18:44. |
2010-12-02, 18:36 | Link #19323 | ||
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1. Shannon was described as being different, unlike everyone else Battler had previously met when he had come to the island six years ago. 2. The fact that Beato is able to hold a conversation with herself. 3. The consistent switching of personal pronouns, especially when Beato is emotional and losing track of herself. 4. The red at the end of EP4. 5. Beato's shock at still looking like "herself" right before the EP3 Tea Party. 6. Lambda's discussion of actresses in the EP4 Tea Party. 7. The focus of EP4 being generally on miserable young women who turn to "witchcraft" as an outlet and escape for a feeling a lack of control over their own lives--Maria and Ange were pretty obviously paralleling Beato pretty strongly. 8. The broad hints that Beato was and still considers herself "furniture". 9. The only thing we knew regarding Battler's behavior six years ago, when his sin was committed, were promises he had thrown around indiscriminately. 10. A pattern established by Kuwadorian Beatrice of Kinzo believing that Beatrice's soul could be transferred to other bodies. 11. Hell, we even figured out that Genji and Kumasawa were in on "hiding" Beatrice based on Gohda's TIP--which also hinted at an "unknown person is behind Beatrice". Don't get me wrong. We didn't figure everything out. For example, we thought that Kinzo was probably using orphans from Fukuin to transfer Beato into, and we refused to believe that Beatrice was (technically) Shannon. But all of those things we got from the first four episodes. The character we discussed was very similar to Yasu in personality. We just couldn't figure out how to make her fit into the plot.
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2010-12-02, 18:41 | Link #19324 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Oh, I don't disagree with your second point. You're hardly alone in that conclusion; I believe Jan-Poo, chronotrig, and myself all had similar notions, although we approached them from profoundly different angles (just ask those two how often they agree with me).
The problem is that last part you said. Making her fit. I just don't get the impression that Yasu "belongs" here, let alone in the role she's cast.
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2010-12-02, 18:52 | Link #19325 | |
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That in itself isn't particularly difficult to get around, but when we hear that Maria has been meeting with and playing witches with someone who claims to be Beatrice for years, that should set off some alarm bells pretty early on. What motive could someone have for doing that? Was it all just a scheme to make Maria read the letter in 1986? It's very hard to find any answer, unless we end up with a person like Yasu.
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2010-12-02, 19:05 | Link #19327 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Hmm, I haven't read EP7 yet, so I haven't really seen how this Yasu is.
Thing is, we've got all these people, and yet a new character that hasn't been seen for 6 episodes and we don't even see his/her face and this person may as well be the culprit? It'd be probably a tiny tiny TINY bit disappointing for me... Of course I understand Yasu's shitty life and how she probably developed an alter Beatrice personality, sure. Perfect motive. Thing is, I guess it's just weird that Ryukishi07 just decides to bring in some random girl/boy, and expect us all to believe she was the one doing all the killings. (I was actually thinking Ryu07 would pull a ShanKanonYasuTrice, which is still possible.) Ah, maybe it's just me being dumb. I like the regular mysteries where someone in the original group was the culprit (which would be so if Shannon was the culprit). Bringing in someone you haven't even read about the whole time just sort of makes me P.O.d. *shrug*
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2010-12-02, 19:15 | Link #19328 |
Thought Being
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I've felt this since EP6, and it's been magnified a lot since finding out about Yasu, but I feel like a very core and overarching theme to Umineko is being able to empathize. Being able to see things from other people's perspectives. The whole story seems to be an exercise in this, directly and indirectly.
I think the fact that many people will not like or understand Yasu is something that Ryuukishi would know very well. I think altogether he's made an ambitious move, making a character such as this a central figure in the story.
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2010-12-02, 19:20 | Link #19329 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Yeah, I guess. If it turns out Yasu turned into Shannon and Shannon created Kanon and then Yasu, Shannon and Kanon created Beatrice together that's okay. Maybe Yasu's not that important right now. Maybe Ryu07 is trying to hint at something?
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2010-12-02, 19:29 | Link #19330 | |
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However, for the EP4 description of witches to fit, there must be someone on the island called Beatrice who is a girl or boy similar to Maria and Ange. Maybe an adult, but it's hard to imagine an adult playing with dolls. So, unless Ange's hint in EP4 is a lie, part b is very likely to be true. And in the EP2 description of Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, the only time in a question arc that someone sees Beatrice and doesn't die or go missing immediately (other than Maria and EP2 Rosa), we see Shannon watching Beatrice floating around Natsuhi, invisible. Which is what Ange and Mammon did in EP4. Which means that part a is likely true. So, if we just connect the dots a little, we can guess who Yasu is and what personality she has. If the games are supposed to be a message, why can't this be the message?
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2010-12-02, 20:01 | Link #19332 | |
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Im just one of those that wont take anything at face value, I try to find every little detail, how It could be spun differently under a different perspective. How it could be used to anticipate something later or how it could be a herring, never discarding the possibility of anything to the very end. Like the idea of Battler simply forgetting something causes all of this or at least Beatrice wanting to seek him out. If this was following the standard mold of detective novels this wouldn't happen not because it involves a love story, but because people just dont forget anything in them. Everyone has photographic memory, no matter how minute the thing was, they'll remember it. If they tell you something contrary to the evidence it wasn't because they forgot, its because they lied to you. |
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2010-12-02, 20:29 | Link #19334 | |
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Besides there are probably a lot of tropes in Japanese mysteries that we generally wouldn't know about. If Battler didn't forget the sin it would mean he's not as much of a Watson as we thought. He wouldn't be incompetent in that case either.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-12-02 at 20:56. |
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2010-12-02, 20:43 | Link #19338 |
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About the point of whether Yasu was the person we've been looking for until now; I'm not sure you guys are actually arguing the opposite sides of the same problem.
I thought that yes, in terms of facts and figures, whoever Yasu is fits what we've been told. i.e. the one playing the pranks, the one living on the island, playing with Maria, etc. But I think what Renall is saying that while the facts fit, the 'feeling' doesn't quite. In other words, the motivation. Isn't this what we were warned about regarding Bernkastel casting the facts in a wrong light? I've always felt that since the very beginning when Bernkastel introduced this person to us as 'Yasu' that that name was synonymous with 'Culprit.' Basically if in a detective novel, or hell, any kind of story, you call one of your characters "Mr. Culprit" and you write the whole story up with that person ACTUALLY being the culprit... it gets a little suspicious, doesn't it? Of course this isn't the end of the story, so I still expect a twist coming in EP8. |
2010-12-02, 21:18 | Link #19339 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Just a thought. The culprit being a new character rewriting Beatrice's character strikes me as turning Umineko into something sort of like a reverse whodunnit mystery (also called the "howcatchem"), where the culprit is declared to the reader at the beginning (as being Beatrice) and the detective has to figure out who he is and how he did it. In Umineko though it sounds like it would make it a bit unfair because the culprit was declared indirectly instead of directly. That makes it sort of a spinoff of a reverse whodunnit rather than a strict one. It's also a little unfair because the story would be written implying there was someone else you had to look for.
Tell me if I'm wrong because I personally don't like reverse whodunnit mysteries.
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2010-12-02, 21:39 | Link #19340 | |
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I can't see how Yasu can be considered "charming" considering this. From what we have seen Yasu could as well be schizophrenic, her fantasies are clearly crossing the boundaries of "healthy imagery" by a a very good degree. I think I'd probably be more compassionate of her if it wasn't for her vindicative personality. She basically spent a good portion of her life harboring feelings of anger and grudge towards the other senior servants but without having any chance to do anything about it. As soon as she found a way to pull pranks on them thus getting revenge she became ecstatic, she was inebriated by that "power". But this is basically the same as a kid who's been bullied for years who suddenly realizes he can now be the bully and finds pleasure in it. If Yasu was born in the internet era she'd become an internet troll. And like many internet trolls she's a kid who's been kicked hard in the butt irl and so she needs to compensate in a "virtual space". And if you think that those servants deserved it, well personally I don't really think that Asune and Berune were that evil, but let's pass on that. What about Jessica? What exactly did she do wrong? Did she deserve to be scared that much? Please. Yasu's practical jokes go way too far for my tastes. And even worse, apparently one of the servants got scared by one Yasu's pranks and fell of the stairs getting a bad injury in the process. Is that a responsible thing to do? And why all of this? Because they dared to challenge "Beatrice"? Because they dared to question her "powers"? Because she wants to punish everyone who doesn't "respect" her? But the kind of "respect" she tries to earn is a respect obtained through fear. That's the same kind of "respect" bullies and gangsters strive for. Yeah of course Yasu had a very bad life. Yeah but so what? Being a victim in no way justifies becoming a villain. At best I can say I understand, and I do. I don't hate Yasu, I pity here. But that means she's not a character I esteem. What I feel is contempt.
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