Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Syndicate

[..]

Actually the meaning of Copy of what it was talked about is different of what you were referring to, as for example Copy in the case of a copy machine, the process of Copying it will not be seen as successful until The copy is printed. you are the first person I have seen talking the word Copy in the manner you are doing so. And I have debated more than once about Sharingan Copying ability.

The problem here is not the proper use of the word and what it does means, is the point that people take it as a given that when you say "Sharingan Copy that", people are usually referring to the person been able to know the Jutsu and perform it, maybe the use of the word based on the Definition is wrong, but, I doubt you can really change how people use the word for it after the Manga has more than 5 Years running around.

So, I wouldnt say people that used it like this are wrong or lack comom sense, it just a general agrement on what the word implies when reffering abaout the Sharingan.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Just an addition, the information sharingan can give is limited to what it can see. Meaning if the action is beyond the quickness of the movement it follows, it may not get any information at all on that.

Indeed, afterall you can't analyze what you can't see.

For the second part, I agree partially. I think the sharingan user can become faster, even though it would last very short time before the user would have a break down, if the move he copies requires movements beyond the user's normal speed. This is possible, if the way that move (that makes the user faster) was created, can be perfectly copied by the sharingan (meaning all the required pieces such as chakra/muscle modification are there to see it, and available for access (this part is important), or there is no invisible part to that speed).

Anyway, this might still be debatable, since the description of normal speed might also include that beyond the limit speed.

Teach the user how to use his current capacities to their best in other words. Well theorically I don't see any problem with that but it seems quite limitated. You may know the best way to punch or to move your legs to run it will not change much if your muscles aren't properly trained to begin with.


Syndicate : no, to copy and to memoryze aren't synonym. In fact you should probably follow your own advice and check a dictionary about that.
Copying implies reproduction.
That's what I explained to you in my first post, you use the word copy for the analyzing ability of the Sharingan whereas Rurik uses it for the actual result, meaning the reproduction of the jutsu.

Since "copying" is casually used for both things by most people neither of you were wrong... Except that the post that started your miles-long posts was about the reproduction of Lee's speed by Sasuke.


Now on a more serious note, you better stop to use your "your ignorant" type of arguing. I don't mind heated arguement myself but you are borderline flaming/baiting and that will get you banned (in fact another mod than me would probably have already deleted your posts).

[Syndicate]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Actually the meaning of Copy of what it was talked about is different of what you were referring to, as for example Copy in the case of a copy machine, the process of Copying it will not be seen as successful until The copy is printed. you are the first person I have seen talking the word Copy in the manner you are doing so. And I have debated more than once about Sharingan Copying ability.

The problem here is not the proper use of the word and what it does means, is the point that people take it as a given that when you say "Sharingan Copy that", people are usually referring to the person been able to know the Jutsu and perform it, maybe the use of the word based on the Definition is wrong, but, I doubt you can really change how people use the word for it after the Manga has more than 5 Years running around.

So, I wouldnt say people that used it like this are wrong or lack comom sense, it just a general agrement on what the word implies when reffering abaout the Sharingan.

yeah ok true but my use of copy hasnt changed is different from what i have said i have allways said sharingan can copy jutsu's and what those justsu's are composed of. Info in this case.

Syndicate : no, to copy and to memoryze aren't synonym. In fact you should probably follow your own advice and check a dictionary about that. Copying implies reproduction.
That's what I explained to you in my first post, you use the word copy for the analyzing ability of the Sharingan whereas Rurik uses it for the actual result, meaning the reproduction of the jutsu..

The whole sharingan CAN copy is difficult to explain. we in our world have more ways to copy something. Thus we can see it in different ways which is the whole problem. we dont know scientifically alot about how the sharingan indeed works thus why i try to use examples i use those very close related to sharingan since sharingan is an eye i use the cognitional part of the eye to explain how sharingan might work through what the author said. the example i give about in Ghost in the shell where you can make imaginary/or perceived data into physical data becoming a copy

This is an anime. what said in the anime with fictional and imagination statements about what we see can only be explained through the use of words we know in our world. What your actually concluding is and what i also think is that sharingan and the use of copy is wrong. It does not in fact make a physical copy of what is seen. It actually 100% tries/strives to achieve copy something. lets look at this closer(thats if you use the logic of rurik)

copying is the proces of reproduction
A copy = a duplicate/replicate

in the case of sharingan which is an eye its stores images which in the memory when recalled can be seen as a movie

If we wanna talk about sharingan we need to know what the author means or maybe take his word for. Thus if he says copy with the sharingan(eyes) did he mean a replica meaning THE COMPLETE REPRODUCTIOn of what lee did or did he mean something else. let me talk about this copy as how rurik uses copy would mean sharingan does the exact same with sharingan since sasuke wasnt able to copy it because he couldnt do the action that must mean it hasnt been copyed.

let me talk about this something else what im talking about. and which looks like what happens in Ghost of the shell. we have the world we view the world with our eyes(sharingan). Our perception/interpretation of this world which we are in and the things which happen is what is stored(copyed) in our memory. This proces of storing is what i view as the copy in naruto because it makes a imaginary exact COPY of what happened. making that a sharingan user is able to RECALL this event in his memory to reread what happened. thus writing(not part of copy) performing the action(with limitations of his physical body) only if we use this logic would the AUThors claim sharingan can copy taijutsu apply. So the stores memories of LEE moving is in a different format electric pulses in the head and eyes.

Thats why i say memorize. In fact someone should call Kishimoto and ask him WTF copying is or that he means mimic if he indeed meant exact reproduction of what lee said.

Since "copying" is casually used for both things by most people neither of you were wrong... Except that the post that started your miles-long posts was about the reproduction of Lee's speed by Sasuke..

about the 1st post it wanst a long post. I said in 6 lines why speed is indeed also copyed. while in ruriks case sharingan through his argument it meant that sharingan cant copy lee's taijustu since sauske wasnt able to perform it.

Now on a more serious note, you better stop to use your "your ignorant" type of arguing. I don't mind heated arguement myself but you are borderline flaming/baiting and that will get you banned (in fact another mod than me would probably have already deleted your posts)..

huh?

anyway hunter the reasonw hy i further elaborate this in full detail is because it not possible for both to be right. That would mean sharingan can copy in 2 ways or something?

[chaz017]

Holy crap, all this came from me me saying that Sasuke copied Lee's speed? Just for the record I understand that he didn't just see Lee and have the speed. As a matter of fact he wasn't even around to see Lee without the weights so I understand that. I'm not sure about manga(as usual) but in the anime when Kakashi is explaining how this speed was managed he said he just had Sasuke focus on Lee's movements and think about them as he trained and that made him gain this speed in two weeks. It was this cheap way they used sharingan that I found ridiculous and angering.

On a side note, I agree with both of you on certain points. But man Rurik you sure like to try and prove me wrong. Oh well, you were right this time. I took the short way out and didn't explain what I meant so it was assumed that I thought he actually copied the speed itself. Understandable, I'll watch how I word things in the future with you around Rurik

[Hentai Guy]

Originally Posted by chaz017

Holy crap, all this came from me me saying that Sasuke copied Lee's speed? Just for the record I understand that he didn't just see Lee and have the speed. As a matter of fact he wasn't even around to see Lee without the weights so I understand that. I'm not sure about manga(as usual) but in the anime when Kakashi is explaining how this speed was managed he said he just had Sasuke focus on Lee's movements and think about them as he trained and that made him gain this speed in two weeks. It was this cheap way they used sharingan that I found ridiculous and angering.

On a side note, I agree with both of you on certain points. But man Rurik you sure like to try and prove me wrong. Oh well, you were right this time. I took the short way out and didn't explain what I meant so it was assumed that I thought he actually copied the speed itself. Understandable, I'll watch how I word things in the future with you around Rurik

Holy crap indeed....

Having had this discussion before, I agree that the speed was not copied. I do, however, also agree that Sasuke's "training" is little more than an excuse...if he can learn Rock Lee's speed in a matter of days (something that took Lee years to do) simply because he's a "genius" (which doesn't make any sense seeing as how physiologically his body shouldn't opperate any different than Lee's in that respect)...well, then he can do anything...which makes him a total Mary-Sue, with the ultimate Mary-Sue ability (Sharingan). Whether or not the wacky I-can-do-anything eyes were directly responsible, it's still pretty cheap...and I'm hard pressed to lay at least some of the blame on the Sharingan.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go train for two weeks...I totally plan to blow away the land-speed record.

[Xx-7-xX]

both i would have sharingan in one and byakugen in the other. Even thought i probably cant' see a full 360 degrees at least i can see 180

[inuyashaman2007]

i would combine it id call it the shakugan the greatest and most keen eye

[Mangekyo]

Originally Posted by inuyashaman2007

i would combine it id call it the shakugan the greatest and most keen eye

maybe thats what Madara has.......

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Hentai Guy

Holy crap indeed....

Having had this discussion before, I agree that the speed was not copied. I do, however, also agree that Sasuke's "training" is little more than an excuse...if he can learn Rock Lee's speed in a matter of days (something that took Lee years to do) simply because he's a "genius" (which doesn't make any sense seeing as how physiologically his body shouldn't opperate any different than Lee's in that respect)...well, then he can do anything...which makes him a total Mary-Sue, with the ultimate Mary-Sue ability (Sharingan). Whether or not the wacky I-can-do-anything eyes were directly responsible, it's still pretty cheap...and I'm hard pressed to lay at least some of the blame on the Sharingan.

Simply because the term genius in this type of series, is also related to the physiologically of the body, in other words the term genius is also used to indicate that they are going to reach things easier and quicker than others physically. So, Sasuke reaching that speed in weeks, whereas it took Lees Years, is the hard difference between a Genius (even amongst the Genius of Uchiha) and Hardworkers.

[mattuchiha]

I say sharingan is better due to the fact it has many stages including Mangekyou sharingan

Byuakugon can only do one abillity but that ability can be added on to with move such as 8 trigams 64 palms

Sharingan possess the skill to follow movements perfectly, copy ninjutsu and taijutsu, see through genjutsu, and look into ones mind

Also it has 3 extremely strong moves to go with it

Amerastu
Tyusyomi
Sasunoo

[chaz017]

Originally Posted by mattuchiha

I say sharingan is better due to the fact it has many stages including Mangekyou sharingan

Byuakugon can only do one abillity but that ability can be added on to with move such as 8 trigams 64 palms

Sharingan possess the skill to follow movements perfectly, copy ninjutsu and taijutsu, see through genjutsu, and look into ones mind

Also it has 3 extremely strong moves to go with it

Amerastu
Tyusyomi
Sasunoo

Personally I don't consider the MS to be the same as the regular sharingan and I would seperate them in a discussion such as this. But that's just me. I agree with the rest of yer statement though. The sharingan is just too crazy no matter how cool Byakugan is. I mean the sharingan's only weakness is that it's the Uchiha that possess it(just a jab at all the fanboys out there, only kidding).

Originally Posted by Rurik

Simply because the term genius in this type of series, is also related to the physiologically of the body, in other words the term genius is also used to indicate that they are going to reach things easier and quicker than others physically. So, Sasuke reaching that speed in weeks, whereas it took Lees Years, is the hard difference between a Genius (even amongst the Genius of Uchiha) and Hardworkers.

Completely agree with you here Rurik, I just hate how they use the term "genius" like that. For a show that tries so hard to show that hard work pays off, it kinda makes it all look pointless in the end. Maybe more towards the end of the series it will change but right now it makes any non-genius character seem a little obsolete. It's almost like they simply use the term for any character they feel like having develop at an unbelievable rate. I imagine the conversation goes something like...

Assistant writer - "Should we have it take him years to learn this new ability? I mean it's pretty dang strong."
Kishimoto's - "Hmm, no just call him a genius and throw it in the next arc. As long as he's a genius no one will question it."

[Syndicate]

yeah but lee is also a tensai man tensai of hard works lets not forget that plox cuz he owns badass in his own way.

[Hyuuga Hitomi]

I'd prefer byukugan(as my username suggests). It fits me better than sharingan.

[xcad]

i prefer the sharingan (den i can copy the handmovements of the smartest kid in my class and ace exams!)...

or like inuyashaman suggested, shakugan!

[tkdtiger]

I personally don't think either is better then the other, but I wouldn't mind having either. Sharingan allows you to copy a jutsu, but as you look back you realize that it doesn't allow you to copy all jutsu's perfectly. It does seem to have problems copying complex jutsus and it doesn't even predict movement perfectly. You see evidence that it has trouble dodging complex attacks as well as extremely fast opponents. Near perfect in any sense of the thought is still extremely useful.

The Byakugan also probablly biggest weakness is that you have to be able to compliment it with something. True that 360 degree vision should in theory allow you to dodge attacks prob. just as good as a sharingan user. Like the sharingan user though you pretty much have to already be near their level to do that.

Both the Sharingan and Byakugan technically hace levels to them. The sharingan's level though is more obvious esp. as you go from a normal sharingan to MS. Byakugan though is less noticable. I mean really you wouldn't know how advanced his byakugan is unless he closed you ten. points. Neji inheirted the byakugan more then any member in his clan, which includes Hiashi. I believe we'll definately see more of what the byakugan will do in the future.

As for copying thing in class with it,well byakugan would be less obvious in the sense that you don't have to look away from your paper to copy something. ; )

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Syndicate

yeah but lee is also a tensai man tensai of hard works lets not forget that plox cuz he owns badass in his own way.

I shouldn't laugh, but that's the kind of thing you tell a kid so he doesn't feel like a loser. Really.

And frankly, if I told, say, my basketball coach, "This guy is stronger than me, faster than me, can jump higher, sinks more shots than me" and my coach told me, "Yeah...but you practice harder and more often than he does" it might actually make me feel worse.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by raikage

And frankly, if I told, say, my basketball coach, "This guy is stronger than me, faster than me, can jump higher, sinks more shots than me" and my coach told me, "Yeah...but you practice harder and more often than he does" it might actually make me feel worse.

You are not comparing them under equal scenarios. If you take Lee's case as an example and integrate it into your example, it happens to become a comparison between Shaq and Stockton. You will always prefer Shaq but it is not like the other is worse in every case, and Lee is just like that. Based on what he can do best, he will try to become the strongest possible, so in that area, no one will be better than him.

At the end, when he reached his peak, he will have qualities at some areas better than the other stronger characters. those may not be enough to become Hokage. But, we all know that, becoming Hokage level is not something every child can become (almost, only 1 in each generation), (although he will temporarily obtain that power, with the opening of the gates) so that is not something to get discouraged.

[xcad]

Originally posted by tkdtiger
As for copying thing in class with it,well byakugan would be less obvious in the sense that you don't have to look away from your paper to copy something. ; )

heh, just remembered that i can memorise the entire textbook with the sharingan. xD

[chaz017]

Originally Posted by xcad

heh, just remembered that i can memorise the entire textbook with the sharingan. xD

I was under the impression that the sharingan didn't help you remember anymore than you would be able to normally. It doesn't increase the amount of knowledge your brain can store. You'd be able to speed read like crazy though, and if you read it a few times you'd probably remember more but I don't think that come test time you'd be any better off than someone who spent hours to read it as many times as you.

I also just realized that since sharingan doesn't even seem to work for crap with unskilled users and I'm not a ninja I wouldn't be able to use it anyway. Byakugan at least seems to work to a certain extent for all those who have it.

[Mirtual]

Since Byakugan lacks the ability to "evolve" like the sharingan and to gain a new "power up" like Mangekyou Sharingan, Sharingan wins this Hands down.
Byakugan does nothing but giving you insight on the enemy an a almost 360° view.

Sharingan copies moves, reads the oponent, let's you anticipate his movements, makes you as good as immune to genjutsu, can be "upgraded", and has three absolute killer moves in MS Form.


Besides we have most likely not yet seen what else the Sharingan is capable of.



Mirtual