Danganronpa - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Gut feeling based on looks etc is not even an argument. Characters aren't just set with the visual tropes, and the game proved it I believe.
Also, really, I see nothing that would lead her into Yandere rampage whatsoever. She doesn't have the profile for that.

By looked like I was referring to the introduction scene including the dialogue, still her being a good actor, if she wants to, was right on the spot.

As for the Yandere: It was one of the possible outcomes at that point.
Her motive was, as Monokuma stated after the trial, interpersonal relationships. I'm aware its not that same, but hints tendencies, especially if you consider that out of the three videos we know about (Sakura told Naegi what was on her video, right after she saw it in the game, thus only 2 for all anime-only watchers), hers was the tamest.
If she decided to kill someone over that video, I don't want to know what would have happened if someone would have taken her mental support inside the academy away.
We can't say for sure though, so its schrödinger's cat.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The fact she was serious doesn't mean the gravity of her actions were anything close to murder. Also, you have to factor the idol industry and its usual shenanigans, instead of taking every words for face value.

As I stated earlier, not dead serious.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I don't think that it is others' fault either in such instance. Remember that Japanese culture has a huge emphasis on privacy and individual personal space. As result, for anyone who isn't close enough to Sayaka, it would be unatural for them to "care" as in going as far sticking with them, unless it is the actual person who asked for this (hence why only Aoi had someone with her, because she was actually the one asking Sakura's company).

Don't forget the special circumstances here.
Monokuma clearly intended to provide a motive, and even announced that in advance, resulting in Sayaka being the only one who visibly snapped.
And she did not just snap, she first fell off her chair, sank to the floor and loudly annouced that she can't take it anymore.
And it didn't stop there.
Afterwards she fled the room in panic, and cried for good 10 minutes and made a 'let go of me or I'll make you' - facial expression when found.
And note, she was the only one doing the second part.
Everyone else was shocked too, but her reaction should ring alarm bells, when Monokuma clearly said he wanted to provide a motive for murder.

We can thus asssume that everyone had a very good idea what was on her DVD, not the exact contents but the direct were it went.
Monokuma created a situation where having someone observe her over an extended period became equal to caring for their own lives.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

As for the Yandere: It was one of the possible outcomes at that point.
Her motive was, as Monokuma stated after the trial, interpersonal relationships. I'm aware its not that same, but hints tendencies, especially if you consider that out of the three videos we know about (Sakura told Naegi what was on her video, right after she saw it in the game, thus only 2 for all anime-only watchers), hers was the tamest.
If she decided to kill someone over that video, I don't want to know what would have happened if someone would have taken her mental support inside the academy away.
We can't say for sure though, so its schrödinger's cat.

Yandere. You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to place that term on Sayaka, even post-murder. That word carries a completely different level of murderous intent that does not apply here in the slightest.

Also, hers was the tamest video? This is absolutely incorrect. I'm unable to provide the 'why' however.

Don't forget the special circumstances here.
Monokuma clearly intended to provide a motive, and even announced that in advance, resulting in Sayaka being the only one who visibly snapped.
And she did not just snap, she first fell off her chair, sank to the floor and loudly annouced that she can't take it anymore.
And it didn't stop there.
Afterwards she fled the room in panic, and cried for good 10 minutes and made a 'let go of me or I'll make you' - facial expression when found.
And note, she was the only one doing the second part.
Everyone else was shocked too, but her reaction should ring alarm bells, when Monokuma clearly said he wanted to provide a motive for murder.

We can thus asssume that everyone had a very good idea what was on her DVD, not the exact contents but the direct were it went.
Monokuma created a situation where having someone observe her over an extended period became equal to caring for their own lives.

That's very unlikely. Sayaka was still regarded as the girly girl of the group. She was the idol. The sweet and respectful one. There's no reason that they would expect her to murder someone, even if she freaked out about the incentive videos. It was just as much a possibility for her, as it was anyone else. No matter how you look at it, murder is still out of her character. Knowing the character better than many people, even after the attempt I think it was out of her character. That's not to say I don't think it's surprising, but it's not an expectation normal people would form.

[Triple_R]

A yandere is someone that is totally obsessed with another person (usually the male lead). They're a bit like those creepy celebrity stalkers you sometimes hear about on the news. The yandere is so "into" another person that she will terrorize and possibly brutalize/murder anybody that she thinks is getting in the way of her attachment to that person. In extreme cases, the yandere will even go so far as to brutalize/murder the very object of her affections if she feels he's rejecting her.

Textbook case of a yandere - Mirai Nikki's Yuno Gasai.

The only way this term would fit Maizono is if she was totally obsessed with Naegi, and wanted to eliminate anybody that she felt was getting between her and him. Maizono did reach out to Naegi early on, but that's for perfectly understandable reasons - He was the only fellow student she recognized, so of course she's going to approach him as he's the only source of comforting familiarity in this entire school for her. Beyond this, and using him to her own ends, Maizono showed no particular attachment to him. So she's not a yandere.

A yandere isn't just an anime girl that's snapped. She's someone that's disturbed in a very specific way. That's not Maizono - She just snapped in general. Yes, she could have used some cold water to the face, but she's not a yandere.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

We can assume that Kyouko, Byakuya and perhaps Makoto would find out the loopholes. There are too many that incriminate Sayaka:
1) the doorplates (associated with the note, and there is no way Leon could know about the room swapping)
2) the note
3) Aoi and Sakura regarding the kitchen knife
4) The scabbard (it doesn't make sense for Sayaka to be hit by the sword and yet to be on the defensive considering the slash mark on the scabbard).
5) The sword itself (Sayaka would not be able to claim she used the sword due to the gilding. And since Leon had his hand stained by it, the obvious knife wielder has to be Sayaka. Associate that with the scabbard, and it is foolproof).
6) coincidence: the very day they learn about the DVD, not only Sayaka had swapped rooms with Makoto but also invited Leon.

So frankly, it isn't far fetched to conclude that Sayaka would be accused of attempted murder, especially by Kyouko and Byakuya. There is little to nothing that incriminate Leon there.

We know that Kyouko and Byakuya would have likely figured it out because of who they are, but Leon does not. How is he supposed to trust people he knows little to nothing about to defend his case? Kyouko didn't even reveal what her talent is.

When he made his decision to kill Sayaka, he didn't even know there would be a trial at the time. Under the assumption that there would be no trial, all you get are preconceived personal notions. All he knew was that compared to himself who walked out unscathed, Sayaka was hurt and had the ability to make herself look appealing. She fooled him and Makoto, so as far as Leon knows she could do it again to the others.

All Leon knew at the time was that he was in a bad situation as long as Sayaka was alive, so he felt cornered either way.

[Kaoru Chujo]

This show has one of the most experienced cast lists I've ever seen. As more and more young seiyuus get major roles, this show's cast has an average age over 40! The youngest seiyuus are Hikasa Youko an Sawashiro Miyuki, both age 28.

What a cast this is. The star is the actress who played Sailor Uranus and was Ikari Shinji in NGE. We've got the actress who plays Doraemon, and the actor who plays Inuyasha. Shiina Hekiru, now 39, was one of the first idol seiyuus and played Alpha in Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou. The list goes on.

I have made a characters/seiyuus page with pics of the characters and their seiyuus, and a bit of info about each seiyuu. Perhaps the pics will help some of us keep everyone straight, lol.

[Kirito]

Spoiler for Save Space:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This show has one of the most experienced cast lists I've ever seen. As more and more young seiyuus get major roles, this show's cast has an average age over 40! The youngest seiyuus are Hikasa Youko an Sawashiro Miyuki, both age 28.

What a cast this is. The star is the actress who played Sailor Uranus and was Ikari Shinji in NGE. We've got the actress who plays Doraemon, and the actor who plays Inuyasha. Shiina Hekiru, now 39, was one of the first idol seiyuus and played Alpha in Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou. The list goes on.

I have made a characters/seiyuus page with pics of the characters and their seiyuus, and a bit of info about each seiyuu. Perhaps the pics will help some of us keep everyone straight, lol.

Thanks for the really neat info and everything, but I think you should put your comment in the voice actor/seiyuu appreciation section in this series sub forum. Just saying because this doesn't really seen relevant in this sub forum.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This show has one of the most experienced cast lists I've ever seen. As more and more young seiyuus get major roles, this show's cast has an average age over 40! The youngest seiyuus are Hikasa Youko an Sawashiro Miyuki, both age 28.

What a cast this is. The star is the actress who played Sailor Uranus and was Ikari Shinji in NGE. We've got the actress who plays Doraemon, and the actor who plays Inuyasha. Shiina Hekiru, now 39, was one of the first idol seiyuus and played Alpha in Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou. The list goes on.

I have made a characters/seiyuus page with pics of the characters and their seiyuus, and a bit of info about each seiyuu. Perhaps the pics will help some of us keep everyone straight, lol.

Indeed. Dangan Ronpa's list of prolific and famous voice actors is massive. Super Dangan Ronpa 2 is also no exception to this. They also pull in new talent as well for some of the roles, which shows that they not only pull in proven names but skillful up-and-comers as well.

That's a great link! I knew about the Doraemon thing, but when I saw her age... I didn't realize just how long she's been playing that character for. Her being Monokuma is so polar, but she's so fantastic. Perhaps she'll come out of retirement to voice creepy mascot characters for a year or two?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Traece

Also, hers was the tamest video? This is absolutely incorrect. I'm unable to provide the 'why' however.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A yandere is someone that is totally obsessed with another person (usually the male lead). They're a bit like those creepy celebrity stalkers you sometimes hear about on the news. The yandere is so "into" another person that she will terrorize and possibly brutalize/murder anybody that she thinks is getting in the way of her attachment to that person. In extreme cases, the yandere will even go so far as to brutalize/murder the very object of her affections if she feels he's rejecting her.

Will keep it a bit shorter as my original post got deleted by multi windowing for the quote parts
Thank you both I know what a yandere is, and I also know that there are different kinds of a yandere.
If you read my posts again you will see that I never actually said she was one but that it was one of the possible outcomes and that she had tendencies.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The only way this term would fit Maizono is if she was totally obsessed with Naegi, and wanted to eliminate anybody that she felt was getting between her and him. Maizono did reach out to Naegi early on, but that's for perfectly understandable reasons - He was the only fellow student she recognized, so of course she's going to approach him as he's the only source of comforting familiarity in this entire school for her. Beyond this, and using him to her own ends, Maizono showed no particular attachment to him. So she's not a yandere.

Ok a thing you can't know, since they cut all the social links with Sayaka they technically force on you, as well as a lot of other dialogue with her, in the game out of the anime.

Since this should have happened like in EP 1 and will definitely not happen now:

Spoiler for Cut VN dialogue:

She didn't just recognize him but was actually interested in him, even while they were in school.
She even asked Naegi whether he has a girlfriend, and even gave him an additional 'incentive'(more like told him to) to ask whether she has a boyfriend.

And before any further misunderstandings arise:
I know its not the same, but if you read my posts closely I always referred to a possibility of her turning into one, if she had survived, not her actualy being one ~ And was also just talking about her having tendencies.
It is sad she got killed off instead of some other chars, having her in there longer would have been interesting for the story.

Originally Posted by Traece

That's very unlikely. Sayaka was still regarded as the girly girl of the group. She was the idol. The sweet and respectful one. There's no reason that they would expect her to murder someone, even if she freaked out about the incentive videos. It was just as much a possibility for her, as it was anyone else. No matter how you look at it, murder is still out of her character. Knowing the character better than many people, even after the attempt I think it was out of her character. That's not to say I don't think it's surprising, but it's not an expectation normal people would form.

her being the respectful idol stopped to matter when she snapped after Monokuma told them that he wanted to provide a motive for murder.

I also can't say for sure if I'd think the same way if I was a chracter in this anime and their age (leaving the fact aside that I would think what the author wants me to then, for the sake of the argument.)

Originally Posted by Traece

Also, hers was the tamest video? This is absolutely incorrect. I'm unable to provide the 'why' however.

Without any additional material to the first game we know the contents of 3 Videos, and out of those 3 Sayaka's was the tamest.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Beyond this, and using him to her own ends, Maizono showed no particular attachment to him.

I can't fault you for thinking this way since they cut out all the Free Time events, but I can say that this is not entirely true.

She was on friendly terms with Naegi before they were given the videos which drove her to attempt to murder Leon.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Without any additional material to the first game we know the contents of 3 Videos, and out of those 3 Sayaka's was the tamest.

This isn't a really fair argument because you are judging those videos based on your own values. You are not an idol struggling in the entertainment industry, so therefore you personally cannot see the gravity of losing your group.

To Sayaka however, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen given her occupation. To elaborate on her mindset requires Free Time events outside of the main plot's investigation/murder phases, so you can check for the missing events in the game thread or Klashikari's links in his sig.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Clarami

...Thanks for the really neat info and everything, but I think you should put your comment in the voice actor/seiyuu appreciation section in this series sub forum. Just saying because this doesn't really seen relevant in this sub forum.

Yes, I was cheating. I wanted more people to actually see the link, which most people wouldn't if it were in the Voice Actor thread. However, I disagree that it is not relevant here. Seiyuus are always relevant. They do the talking in every episode. Actually I was tempted to post in both places...but I do have some lingering sense of decency, so I didn't.

[frodonk]

woah, monobear's really old.

[NoemiChan]

I decided to drop the series after this episode.. I can't consider this a crime solving series at all..

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

This isn't a really fair argument because you are judging those videos based on your own values. You are not an idol struggling in the entertainment industry, so therefore you personally cannot see the gravity of losing your group.

Society usually considers people being brutally murdered worse than girl bands splitting up, which is why the former is punished with a lifetime sentence while a prosecutor wouldn't even stand up in the morning for the latter.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

*presumably a deleted post goes here. Kudos for forum glitches*

That's actually a really funny thing to say. Even the most detached characters would disagree with you.

It's not about what you think, it's about what they think. When you're forced up against a wall with the single presented being murder so that you may get your life back, the value of murder changes significantly. It shouldn't be that hard to understand. Murder isn't murder when you have no choice.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Traece

That's actually a really funny thing to say. Even the most detached characters would disagree with you.

It's not about what you think, it's about what they think. When you're forced up against a wall with the single presented being murder so that you may get your life back, the value of murder changes significantly. It shouldn't be that hard to understand. Murder isn't murder when you have no choice.

It still is, and Sayaka had also had a choice.
Manslaugther is just a privileged form of murder.

Self-defense usually doesn't change which delict it is either btw, it only justifies it, 'eliminating' the crimes illicitability for the specific case.
You are also only allowed to act against the attacker´, and only for certain rights
(life, freedom, physical integrety, property, health)

A state of emergency requires that the right one harms weights less than the one one tries to defend.
Here you are allowed to act against a third person's rights too, and a larger range of rights, with the limitation of adequancy.

Life is an absolutely protected right, and weights thus more than the right of assembly.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

It still is, and Sayaka had also had a choice.
Manslaugther is just a privileged form of murder.

Self-defense usually doesn't change which delict it is either btw, it only justifies it, 'eliminating' the crimes illicitability for the specific case.
You are also only allowed to act against the attacker´, and only for certain rights
(life, freedom, physical integrety, property, health)

A state of emergency requires that the right one harms weights less than the one one tries to defend.
Here you are allowed to act against a third person's rights too, and a larger range of rights, with the limitation of adequancy.

Life is an absolutely protected right, and weights thus more than the right of assembly.

As always I'm referring to psychology, and not law. I can't even fathom why law and written rules on murder would apply in this discussion.

This is Monokuma's world. This isn't a courtroom. This isn't society. There's no culture here. It's an empty void with an idea and fifteen students inside of it. The whole point is that the society they knew doesn't exist here. There's no punishment for their murders, only rewards. Their lives were stolen from them and they were given incentives to escape, rather than live their lives there or die trying.

In reality, there's only two options: Kill, or attempt to flee. Either way, if you're not the killer then you die because someone killed you or you die because someone didn't get caught. For people like Sayaka, waiting isn't an option. She had her precious dreams and her life that she needed to return to, because it would appear that with her gone they've been destroyed. So now she has only one option, the option that she'll be rewarded for. It's really very simple.

Obviously she cared a great deal about her life. It's not wise to say her video was the tamest. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that, thus far, hers was easily the most effective? Claiming it's tame is laughable, when it caused the first murder to occur.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Traece

That's actually a really funny thing to say. Even the most detached characters would disagree with you.

Seriously? You think most people would disagree with "society usually considers people being brutally murdered worse than girl bands splitting up"?

I rolled with Maizono snapping over seeing what happened to her band, but I have to admit that her video seemed mild to me compared to what Naegi saw (or at least thinks he saw) - His entire family getting brutally murdered. And I'm pretty confident in saying that most of society would agree with AC and I on this.

Maizono's reaction does suggest to me that the girl may have had underlying psychological issues before even coming to this school. Naegi's overall reactions tells me that he's probably one of the sanest people in this school.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Seriously? You think most people would disagree with "society usually considers people being brutally murdered worse than girl bands splitting up"?

I rolled with Maizono snapping over seeing what happened to her band, but I have to admit that her video seemed mild to me compared to what Naegi saw (or at least thinks he saw) - His entire family getting brutally murdered. And I'm pretty confident in saying that most of society would agree with AC and I on this.

Maizono's reaction does suggest to me that the girl may have had underlying psychological issues before even coming to this school. Naegi's overall reactions tells me that he's probably one of the sanest people in this school.

This is a misquote.

I don't know how and I don't know why, but I did not reply to the quote in that post. It's not a stretch, considering what I said doesn't match up with the quote in the slightest. Edit: I noticed one of AC's posts was deleted, and probably the one I had replied to. Some weird substitution by the forum must have occurred.

Naegi is obviously the most sane. That shouldn't need pointing out, seeing as it's his super-duper high school skill. He's the most average of the average. The luckster. Technically that makes him the most sane.

You say he saw his family being brutally murdered, but he didn't. Just like Sayaka didn't see her friends being killed. Just as well, it's not appropriate to treat Sayaka's idol group like they're just some wishy-washy girls that she wont be seeing anymore. They were just as important to her as Naegi's family is to him. Not to mention, she's not only losing her 'family' but all of her hopes and dreams as well. That's much harsher by any gauge. Plus, like I said, tameness is a matter of perspective to the target. If Sayaka's incentive was so troubling and so disturbing to her that it caused her to attempt murder before every single other person, I can't in good faith call it a tame video. To her, it was the worst possible thing.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Traece

This is a misquote.

I don't know how and I don't know why, but I did not reply to the quote in that post. It's not a stretch, considering what I said doesn't match up with the quote in the slightest. Edit: I noticed one of AC's posts was deleted, and probably the one I had replied to. Some weird substitution by the forum must have occurred.

If my memory serves me right I deleted the post soon after I posted it, as I saw an unintended hint potential in there, which was approx yesterday 17:24. - your post was from 9 am this morning. (times in GMT +1)
I guess you probably wanted to quote the one where I said Sayaka's was the tamest out of them. (Which is still there), used multible windows and got that one through copy paste instead.

Originally Posted by Traece

You say he saw his family being brutally murdered, but he didn't. Just like Sayaka didn't see her friends being killed. Just as well, it's not appropriate to treat Sayaka's idol group like they're just some wishy-washy girls that she wont be seeing anymore. They were just as important to her as Naegi's family is to him. Not to mention, she's not only losing her 'family' but all of her hopes and dreams as well. That's much harsher by any gauge. Plus, like I said, tameness is a matter of perspective to the target. If Sayaka's incentive was so troubling and so disturbing to her that it caused her to attempt murder before every single other person, I can't in good faith call it a tame video. To her, it was the worst possible thing.

I was more referring to Sakura's video there, still you don't need to be a detective to get a good guess what happened in Naegi's video.
In Sayaka's video you still see the girls, having no signs of external wounds.

Originally Posted by Traece

As always I'm referring to psychology, and not law. I can't even fathom why law and written rules on murder would apply in this discussion.

Murder is defined by law though. Also know how Monokuma says 'law and order of this place'. Even with the 'at this place' part though we can still assume that common sense still applies to a certain degree.
Then again... Its monokuma

I posted that btw, since you already had to explain someone that Leon did not act in self defense. So I decided its better to set the 'Its not even murder if you have no other choice' asap before someone actually thinks that is true.

This is Monokuma's world. This isn't a courtroom. This isn't society. There's no culture here. It's an empty void with an idea and fifteen students inside of it. The whole point is that the society they knew doesn't exist here. There's no punishment for their murders, only rewards. Their lives were stolen from them and they were given incentives to escape, rather than live their lives there or die trying.

Originally Posted by Traece

In reality, there's only two options: Kill, or attempt to flee. Either way, if you're not the killer then you die because someone killed you or you die because someone didn't get caught. For people like Sayaka, waiting isn't an option. She had her precious dreams and her life that she needed to return to, because it would appear that with her gone they've been destroyed. So now she has only one option, the option that she'll be rewarded for. It's really very simple.

I can't really answer this without accidentally hinting something in the process :/.
She could have simply waited though, rushing out there wouldn't have magically reformed her group either.
Its also not a kill or be killed situation, if you stay with someone who will undoubtably not kill someone then its very unlikely to get killed in the first place.

Actually even if there was someone who would kill, they wouldn't strike if they are outnumbered by the sheep ~ Wolf and sheep puzzle

Originally Posted by Traece

Obviously she cared a great deal about her life. It's not wise to say her video was the tamest. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that, thus far, hers was easily the most effective? Claiming it's tame is laughable, when it caused the first murder to occur.

Yes it was definitely the most effective, I still think its tame compared to what was shown to Naegi and Sakura though. Not tame in general terms, but tame in comparision to the others.

[Traece]

Spoiler for Yet more discussion.:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I was more referring to Sakura's video there, still you don't need to be a detective to get a good guess what happened in Naegi's video.
In Sayaka's video you still see the girls, having no signs of external wounds.

I don't recall Naegi's family really being wounded either. Though really, it's not about the how. The implications are important here. Sayaka's idol group, the most popular in the country, suddenly disbanded and the members possibly even dead? It's a seemingly impossible feat. That curiosity is part of what made her so crazy.

Murder is defined by law though. Also know how Monokuma says 'law and order of this place'. Even with the 'at this place' part though we can still assume that common sense still applies to a certain degree.
Then again... Its monokuma

It's sort of the frontier mentality, in a sense. We associate the frontier with having been this lawless place where people did as they pleased because there was nobody to stop them, and as things got worse it became the norm (although we know that, historically, this is almost the opposite of the truth). Kibougamine Academy is a place where they're encouraged and desired to murder. Whether we like to admit it or not, that has a pretty severe effect on a person. If you're threatened and promised rewards for murder, eventually it becomes a good option.

I can't really answer this without accidentally hinting something in the process :/.
She could have simply waited though, rushing out there wouldn't have magically reformed her group either.
Its also not a kill or be killed situation, if you stay with someone who will undoubtably not kill someone then its very unlikely to get killed in the first place.

That's a conclusion you can only come to in retrospect. We know what's going to happen and what has happened. Sayaka didn't, because she lived through it. I doubt most of the cast sincerely thinks that they can simply live and escape.

It's funny, but I've spent so much time keeping myself locked into a certain set of information to avoid spoilers that it's like second nature to me now. Avoiding hints can be a bit of a chore sometimes, especially now.

Yes it was definitely the most effective, I still think its tame compared to what was shown to Naegi and Sakura though. Not tame in general terms, but tame in comparision to the others.

It was tame in that it didn't have gore, or outright murder, or anything of the sort. It wasn't tame in emotional impact. I'm continuing to use that term for the sake of consistency, really.

At any rate. I'm going to start spoiler tagging any of this discussion for the sake of space. Although we're coming up on Dangan Ronpa Episode 4 discussion, this is probably a more appropriate topic for one of the general threads at this point. At least for me, I think things are starting to come together quite nicely on this topic.