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Lolipopo · 2010-02-15, 06:45

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Originally Posted by Betteroffer

She seemed frightened enough in Stage 2 when the soldiers were about to gun them all down in the warehouse, during the Orange Incident, when she was falling in Turn 6, when Xing-ke was carting her off, when Suzaku was about to drug her, when Luciano implied torturing or raping her, and just before Sayoko killed the soldier sent to kill her (she had tears in her eyes).

Being willing to die for a cause and unafraid of death are too very different things, and even suicidal people can fear dying.

@Blade: Ahh, okay, I thought you were lumping his freakout during the Black Rebellion in with his actions between the seasons as being similarly unjustifiable. I agree that everything after the Black Rebellion was unjustifiable, and would indeed make Euphemia roll over in her grave.

Well I didn't mean she isn't scared by death in a proper sense (I think everyone is always a bit afraid by death) but more in reply to Bonzo's post who was about how she is frightened by death cause she wants to live with her mother.

Her actions are telling us otherwise.

Sol Falling · 2010-02-15, 07:58

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Originally Posted by azul120

Not loyalty to them on a political level, but he did have a history with them.

Not to mention that, from the big scope of things, it was Suzaku who betrayed Japan, not them. They were terrorists in the eyes of Britannia, WHO I must add forcibly occupied their country, and were secretly aiding its freedom. Now they may not have been civilians, but Suzaku still turned his back on him.

Afterthought: I guess it is different, in that it should be filed under turning against former friends/etc., like when he wouldn't ask for Kallen's forgiveness as he moved in for the kill against her in R2 6.

Flash back to Stage 19 for some Suzaku development on that issue.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist

Being honorable in battle is one thing, being (however justifiably) arrogant and making frankly unreasonable demands when before that your forces are losing is quite another. Suzaku could not have expected them to surrender, especially when this war means their very rights as humans are on the line. He just wanted to have the peace of mind of giving them the option. The commanders didn't sacrifice their men needlessly, they tried to take down an enemy unit that landed on their shores when they were winning that battle.

Such a ridiculous surrender request could never be expected to be accepted. And Suzaku is guilty of this fact more than once, demanding an entire army to retreat in the face of a never-before-seen weapon as a bluff. Unless he's genuinely that stupid, he's only saying it to justify killing people. He doesn't even get that benefit when he fights Kallen in Turn 18, firing in the middle of his request for her to move. That was outright trying to make her kill herself protecting Lelouch.

Anyway, the difference here is that Kallen doesn't delude herself about what she's doing. She kills people for her cause. She knows it. Suzaku tries to dress it up so he'll feel better about himself.

I don't really get where people get this 'Suzaku does stuff to make himself feel better' stuff when it's pretty clear he couldn't possibly consider himself more of a dirty sinner. (Also: the line azul brought up in Turn 6 is pretty much an explicit example of Suzaku refusing to dress up the fact that he is killing real people for his cause.)Screw whatever preconceptions those European generals' had of what constitutes a 'reasonable' battle; if the name of the Knight of Rounds' 'White Shinigami' doesn't speak enough for them, then they do deserve whatever consequences they get for not surrendering. I think one thing to remember when talking about Suzaku supposedly helping Britannia 'enslave' other countries is that, unlike the then present Britannia and Japan, Britannia and the E.U./C.F. are actually (perhaps intermittently, but certainly historically) at war. The fact is, in Code Geass it's pretty much a given that all governments are assholes anyway (go back to Lelouch and Suzaku's meeting in Picture Book 1/Stage 00 for an interesting idealogical reversal), so assuming and condemning Suzaku for enabling a 'political aggressor' like Britannia would be meaningless. Compromising with stuff like that is a fundamental assumption of 'working with the (any) system' in the first place.

Remember, Suzaku's goal is not 'get Britannia to stop conquering countries'. It's 'get Britannia to treat conquered countries well'; countries being conquered is not a detriment under this assumption.

Furthermore, speaking on Suzaku's contributions to Britannia 'enslaving' other countries in the style of Japan in general: unlike Japan, which was an independant nation, wherever it was Suzaku was fighting in Turn 4 (it was either Germany or Italy I think, but I can't remember) and more than likely anywhere else he took the field at was a part of one of the world's superpowers (the E.U. in this case). This is because, after gaining military dominance around the time of the invasion of Japan, Britannia had already had around 8 years to conquer any of the weaker individual nations left around which it was interested in. However, considering all the military/technological advancements Britannia had been acquiring recently, it was probably in an expansionary period, even beginning to gain ground directly against its rival superpowers. What this means is two things: first, given Britannia's much increased military potential, and given that it's recent gains are in areas much closer to the heart of it's rival superpowers, Britannia has much less incentive to consolidate/reform those areas than to convert them into staging grounds for further excursions or to use them as bargaining chips for direct negotiations. Second: given the influx of new technology, Britannia gained more room for growth/improvement so that less of its production capacity would be directed at satellite 'colonies' in the first place (I think you can see this in the state of Japan at the start of R2 for example--it is clearly not recovered from the Black Rebellion, and the general situation itself does not seem permanent or even sustainable). All this means that for me, the idea that Suzaku's contributions to Britannia's war effort would lead to anything remotely similar to new 'Area 11's is quite unlikely.

So let me get back to the point: as I see it, Suzaku had no reason whatsoever to feel guilty over crushing those armies, so I don't see why he'd feel the need to 'dress up' anything in the first place; and indeed, the fact that he offered them a chance to surrender at all does seem to me to have been honourable.

edit: lol, yeah I suppose this is a bit more complicated than your version blade, but I don't think Suzaku ever thought about his cause in terms of legitimacy in the first place. I realize this will sound terribly ironic to you guys, but under the interpretation above, Suzaku helping Britannia conquer countries as a step on the way to 'getting Britannia to treat conquered countries better' could be construed as an example of Suzaku, like Lelouch, having a bit of a worldwide vision.

Anyway--sorry for off-topic. I had a bit about Kallen here originally but I didn't finish it and kinda don't feel like thinking anymore so I scrapped it. Cross-posting this to the Suzaku thread, so send any replies there.

~~Arbitres~~ · 2010-02-15, 10:16

Suzaku is near irrelevant in this thread. To me, who shouldn't exist here, as this is a Shrine to Kallen (More or less D

Lolipopo: I agree, everyone is afraid of death to some extent, especially by their individual sense of it. (i.e: Lelouch would feel dead if Nunnally and Kallen were to die. Though thats in my opinion.)

Kallen is brave enough to overcome defeat and sorrow to remain risen among others, instead using that as a foundation for future resolve.

Though at the Geass Door finale in 25-R1, she did indeed run away... But that was from shock of Lelouch being Zero -- The man who would liberate japan.

I say thats it for me until someone draws up something else </3

Revolutionist · 2010-02-15, 11:28

From an ideological point of view Britannia has no right to be in Japan. I guess that's why Kallen can rationalize her murdering cops and soldiers. However, the moment Japan lost the war, which it was partially responsible for, Britannia ceased to be the conqueror and inherited all the responsibilities of the previous government. So, Britannia does have a right to protect its territories, and terrorists kinda get in the way of that.

Not only are these guys killing mostly other Elevens, but they're also preventing the reconstruction process, which is why they're stuck in ghettos. Nobody wants to have their cities looking like shit, and we see that Britannia is no exception, in R2 they are rebuilding Shinjiku...

Besides, you can't really blame people for doing their jobs...Most Britannian soldiers and police officers had nothing to do with their government's actions, they didn't choose to invade Japan. They are just there doing their jobs, most probably just want to do their time and get the hell out and go back to their families and friends.

bladeofdarkness · 2010-02-15, 11:34

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