Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Mentar

To my amazement, there seems to be a common consensus that Homura can "stop the time" (self-reaffirming echo chamber), but I am not sure at all at the moment that this is correct.

I'll kindly ask how you can explain the QB killing scene without Homura being able to stop time.Notably:
-The water that stops running as if time were stopped. (what other than timestop can explain water staying in midair?)
-Being able to hit a target with a dozen bullets simultaniously.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by totoum

I'll kindly ask how you can explain the QB killing scene without Homura being able to stop time.Notably:
-The water that stops running as if time were stopped. (what other than timestop can explain water staying in midair?)
-Being able to hit a target with a dozen bullets simultaniously.

Supporting this, the flash grenade scene earlier with Kyoko also seems to confirm Time Stop. When Homura's buckler opens, it resembles a clock face. Homura pulls the pin on the grenade, and Kyoko retreats, thinking she's going to suicide bomb. What happens next only lasts about a second, but seems to be the best argument for Time Stop. A red line appears near the edge of the buckler and begins to circle it, as if a countdown has begun, and we hear a single loud "TICK". The grenade explodes, but Homura is already gone.

The scene indicates that her powers stop time for just a few seconds, and that the time she buys herself counts down on her buckler. This would explain how watching her in real time makes it look like she can flash-step.

[applejuice]

It seems that there is yet ANOTHER thing that Kyuube didn't tell you.

虚淵 : 前の個体の損傷が激しくなると、自動的に次の個体が生成されます。 そして魔法少女がキュウべぇを殺すと、ペナルティとしてソウルジェムの濁りを濃くされてしまいます。それも キュウべぇは説明していませんが（笑）
ちなみにキュウべぇが自分の死体を食べたのは、体がこの世界にはない物質でできており、その証拠隠滅のため です。

TS: If prior individual gets serious injury, another one (kyuube) will be automatically created. If Mahou Shoujo kills Kyuube, Soul Gem becomes darker as a delicious penalty. Of course, Kyuube didn't tell you that lolololol.
Plus, The reason that Kyuube eats its corpse is to remove the evidence of his existence which is composed of different elements from this world.

-------------------

That will explain 1. why Homura cannot kill Kyuube a lot 2. Kyuube is bitch 3. His recruiting system is god damn broken.

[guuchan]

I think we should really read into the script more before we come up with new theories. Like Mentar mentioned, almost every line in this show is carefully constructed.

Originally Posted by Mentar

In episode 8, QB said that Homura has killed (not injured - killed!) _twice_ so far. Not once, twice. What was the second time? It wasn't shown so far.

You meant "first" time?

And yes, the term Kyuubee used was "killed". No other interpretation.

As for what the "new" Kyuubee said about himself when he showed up:

「替わりはいくらでもあるけど」

"Even though there are always replacements"

To me, the "replacement" there means Kyuubee's body. That makes me think Kyuubee actually works quite similar to MG - his soul exists in a separate form.

Therefore, I'm really hesitant to believe that all too many iterations have happened so far, based on that. Of course, there may have been lots of different timelines where Homura had sieved QB without him knowing, and one can argue that QB's memory only spans THIS timeline, but... if you subscribe to this theory, then it's strange that _Madoka_ remembers. Unless it means that Homura and Madoka have met in _this_ timeline.

Kyuubee definitely only has knowledge of this timeline, assuming you believe:

1. Homura came from the future and she contracted with Kyuubee; and
2. He didn't lie when he said he knew almost nothing about Homura.

Originally Posted by totoum

I'll kindly ask how you can explain the QB killing scene without Homura being able to stop time.Notably:
-The water that stops running as if time were stopped. (what other than timestop can explain water staying in midair?)
-Being able to hit a target with a dozen bullets simultaniously.

"Time manipulation" (時間操作) was what Kyuubee called her magic, so Mentar, sorry but I would also have to agree that Homura can stop time, otherwise that "manipulation" power of hers is quite weak.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by applejuice

TS: If prior individual gets serious injury, another one (kyuube) will be automatically created. If Mahou Shoujo kills Kyuube, Soul Gem becomes darker as a delicious penalty. Of course, Kyuube didn't tell you that lolololol.
Plus, The reason that Kyuube eats its corpse is to remove the evidence of his existence which is composed of different elements from this world.

Is this information reliable? As far as I can tell, image is not related to quote.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Is this information reliable? As far as I can tell, image is not related to quote.

Yep, it's from the same magazine (at least according to the 2ch). Picture isn't related since I don't care.

Originally Posted by Entire article I found

雑誌インタビュー
-キュウべぇは殺された！と思ったら、直後に復活しましたね

虚淵：
前の個体の損傷が激しくなると、自動的に次の個体が生成されます。
そして魔法少女がキュウべぇを殺すと、ペナルティとしてソウルジェムの濁りを
濃くされてしまいます。

それもキュウべぇは説明していませんが（笑）

ちなみにキュウべぇが自分の死体を食べたのは、体がこの世界にはない物質で
できており、その証拠隠滅のためです。

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Well, come to think about it. I'd say that it's actually more appropriate to just injure Kyuube and makes him unable to move. Because if he dies then he can immediately come back with full health. So, injuring him should slow him more than killing him. IMO But either ways, it's only inevitable for him to meet Madoka. What Homura did is just slowing the process a bit.

Now that's a very good argument. That makes sense to me.


So what likely happened "off-screen" in Episode 1:

1. Homura successfully kills Kyubey.

2. Kyubey quickly comes back, and hence Homura realizes that killing him may be useless, so she tries your injury/immobilization approach.

3. That approach would have worked except that Kyubey was able to send a telepathic cry out to Madoka given the distance between them at the time.


This would also answer the question of "What other time was Kyubey killed (in this time-line at least)?"

Good thinking, zato_1one. Nice to see this plot issue closed.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by applejuice

TS: If prior individual gets serious injury, another one (kyuube) will be automatically created. If Mahou Shoujo kills Kyuube, Soul Gem becomes darker as a delicious penalty. Of course, Kyuube didn't tell you that lolololol.

OHGAWD. so this is legit then? man, i dunno what to say..

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I already did, but for the sake of argument I will repeat once more.

Every single work of media has plot holes like these. From Dragonball Z's 'why not wish for invulnerability' to Lord of the Rings 'why not pull the distraction tactic to begin with instead of bothering with the whole fellowship thing' or even 'how come I can hear sound in space? Only overanalyzation blows these plotholes out of proportion.

In response to your LOTR question, the distraction tactic would only work when Frodo was already almost to the ring. If you remember correctly, Frodo went MIA pretty early on in the game...

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now that's a very good argument. That makes sense to me.


So what likely happened "off-screen" in Episode 1:

1. Homura successfully kills Kyubey.

2. Kyubey quickly comes back, and hence Homura realizes that killing him may be useless, so she tries your injury/immobilization approach.

3. That approach would have worked except that Kyubey was able to send a telepathic cry out to Madoka given the distance between them at the time.


This would also answer the question of "What other time was Kyubey killed (in this time-line at least)?"

Good thinking, zato_1one. Nice to see this plot issue closed.

You guys are all going about this the wrong way...

IF YOU CAN'T KILL IT, TRAP IT AND TORTURE IT. If they're all connected like a Misaka network, they should still be able to feel the pain... . And if there is only one "main" entity that is transferred when it dies... well, just keep it alive, barely.

^This doesn't mean I buy into the notion that QB is evil yet, btw.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now that's a very good argument. That makes sense to me.


So what likely happened "off-screen" in Episode 1:

1. Homura successfully kills Kyubey.

2. Kyubey quickly comes back, and hence Homura realizes that killing him may be useless, so she tries your injury/immobilization approach.

3. That approach would have worked except that Kyubey was able to send a telepathic cry out to Madoka given the distance between them at the time.


This would also answer the question of "What other time was Kyubey killed (in this time-line at least)?"

Good thinking, zato_1one. Nice to see this plot issue closed.

Yeah, I have to admit before I went to sleep last night, I managed to work out this possible explanation myself, which would close the plot issue.

But if this is true, then Homura has only gone back in time once, and thus this isn't a repeating time loop like some have speculated. As I said before, my big issue with a repeating time loop is that Homura can only make one wish to go back in time. Her power doesn't seem enough to do it alone, given the limitations of her power we've seen so far.

And it would still leave us with the issue of why Kyube would grant a wish to someone who obviously is against his "plan" to go back in time. He would have known that such a person would oppose him.

In another note, the article, if true, is interesting. Kyube isn't from another world, then, but made up from elements of this world. Who do we know who could have possibly rewritten the world, and thus created him from elements of this world?

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So what likely happened "off-screen" in Episode 1:

1. Homura successfully kills Kyubey.

2. Kyubey quickly comes back, and hence Homura realizes that killing him may be useless, so she tries your injury/immobilization approach.

3. That approach would have worked except that Kyubey was able to send a telepathic cry out to Madoka given the distance between them at the time.


This would also answer the question of "What other time was Kyubey killed (in this time-line at least)?"

And it is another clue that she is not as experienced as many people here thinking. (Why not to use attrition approach in the first place?)

I also want to point out her words in ep. 4. "I have seen so many deaths that given up on counting". May be it was too hard to count in emotional sense? Not many if you count stones, but way too many if you count people's deaths?

And now that bring up the question: why she doesn't tell them the truth? Again. I have issues with "don't believe" explanation, but in fact we don't have even that. (Actually it is a good thing. "don't believe" is incredible lame excuse)

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

In another note, the article, if true, is interesting. Kyube isn't from another world, then, but made up from elements of this world. Who do we know who could have possibly rewritten the world, and thus created him from elements of this world?

Take with grain of salt:
"About the reason why QB eats his body: body composed of substance that doesn't exist in this world. So he do it to erase evidence of that. "
You misreading applejuice's translation. Hopefully mine is easier to understand

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dharma

And now that bring up the question: why she doesn't tell them the truth? Again. I have issues with "don't believe" explanation, but in fact we don't have even that. (Actually it is a good thing. "don't believe" is incredible lame excuse)

Yeah, a number of people are noting that. "Wouldn't believe me" is only an excuse if there is no means of verification, like if I were to tell you that ghosts exist, but only come out when they want to. Since I can't make ghosts appear, I can't make people believe me.

Homura has two methods: "Ask Kyube, he'll tell you." and "have a friend take my soul gem 100 meters from my body, then feel my neck for a pulse when I collapse."

Originally Posted by Dharma

Take with grain of salt:
"About the reason why QB eats his body: body composed of substance that doesn't exist in this world. So he do it to erase evidence of that. "
You misreading applejuice's translation. Hopefully mine is easier to understand

Hmm, you sure? applejuice's version says: "The reason that Kyuube eats its corpse is to remove the evidence of his existence which is composed of different elements from this world."

Anyone else who can read Japanese wanna clarify which it is?

[Fimbulvetr]

Just because Kyuube didn't say anything that was a complete lie yet doesn't mean he can't or wouldn't whenever it pleases him, so this "Ask Kyube, he'll tell you." is pretty weak. We know he does everything to get the girls to contract, and lying by omission certainly is part of that.
If Homura collapsing would convince Madoka to never form a contract, I think she would have tried that.
But the real problem is that Madoka doesn't really listen, if she did then Homura wouldn't have such a hard time protecting her.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Hmm, you sure? applejuice's version says: "The reason that Kyuube eats its corpse is to remove the evidence of his existence which is composed of different elements from this world."

Anyone else who can read Japanese wanna clarify which it is?

この世界にはない物質
Kono Sekai ni wa nai Busshitsu
Material/Substance that does not exist in this world
applejuice was wording it wrong but meant to say the same.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Yeah, a number of people are noting that. "Wouldn't believe me" is only an excuse if there is no means of verification, like if I were to tell you that ghosts exist, but only come out when they want to. Since I can't make ghosts appear, I can't make people believe me.

Homura has two methods: "Ask Kyube, he'll tell you." and "have a friend take my soul gem 100 meters from my body, then feel my neck for a pulse when I collapse."

It's possible that this isn't the first time Homura has gone to a different timeline to try and save Madoka. There could've been many failed attempts.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr

Just because Kyuube didn't say anything that was a complete lie yet doesn't mean he can't or wouldn't whenever it pleases him, so this "Ask Kyube, he'll tell you." is pretty weak. We know he does everything to get the girls to contract, and lying by omission certainly is part of that.

Then he should have lied about the soul gem. It was a perfect opportunity to. He knows it freaks girls out, and his stated reason for not telling them was because it did. He could have just said, "Oh, your body is connected with the gem via magic, so you have to stay close to it, within 100 meters."

I have no problem with thinking someone a liar, but I need evidence of it. It doesn't help that Kyube has been right twice, thus showcasing he was most definitely not lying. Withholding information, I'll agree with; that has been shown. Lying outright has not.

[Haak]

Withholding important information is just as bad as lying in my book, so i don't really see why the distinction would matter.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Haak

Withholding important information is just as bad as lying in my book, so i don't really see why the distinction would matter.

Lying means you can't take anything they say at face value. It makes it difficult to determine truth.

Withholding information means that what they are saying is true; you just have to parse out why they are withholding, and what possible conclusions are likely to be drawn.

With the former, you can trust anything. With the latter, at least you have clues that hint at the truth.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Haak

It's possible that this isn't the first time Homura has gone to a different timeline to try and save Madoka. There could've been many failed attempts.

15,531 attemps