Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Irisiel]

*Cracks knuckles* I must warn you people, I just re-watched Star Date and Bye-Bye Sheryl, so I might be a bit brutal here. Also, I'm so high on painkillers right know that I'm surprised if I manage to find my brain.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Hm, if I remember correctly (I watch Ep25 a lot), there is a clock shown the night Alto and Sheryl are first shown living together and then one when Alto gets ready in his plan to fight. I remember seeing one that said a time and date both times. If I am correct, it was around two weeks.

I don't think it was two weeks, mainly because I can't find or remember any concrete dates in the series, but also because space is such a vast place, and we must remember that not just Ranka and Brera had the time to get to Vajra planet, but also that Quarter manages to not only get to that other colony, but also to search through it for evidence and find and travel to Vajra planet.

I say that it's at least a month (4 weeks = 4 = Quart/Quad/Tetra = Quarter = 25 = 25th anniversary) for symmetry, but I could see that even with folding, the sheer distances covered could easily make it into four months. Either case, it was long enough for Alto and Sheryl to become very familiar and comfortable with one another.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, I view the final episode as canon. Mostly because of the WTF moment where Ranka uses a Jesus move to restore Sheryl magically. But also because of Alto reaching into Ranka's soul. It was like watching some sort of angel/demon movie the way that all happened. So whether or not his ability to reach into Ranka's heart was because of Sheryl's earring or his desire to understand the situation, I think the whole episode is questionable. After all, by all rights, Alto should've died in Ep24.

Jesus!Ranka is strange as hell. And I'd rather forget about her. Yay! Sheryl survived, but then Ranka had to go and hit a terminally ill friend who was the only one in favour of saving her life. Yeah. No. This moment forever killed TV!Ranka for me.

And no, Alto didn't reach into Ranka's soul. He simply appeared in the Vajra network along with Sheryl. Notice that even Brera appeared in the network, and he was the one who encouraged Ranka after she started singing and they both broke the mind control.

The fact that Alto after about 25 episodes (give or take a few scenes) finally decides to acknowledge Ranka's feelings shouldn't be taken as pro-AruRan. If anything, it should be the opposite.

About Alto surviving; since the first episode, we've seen him think quickly on his feet when in mortal danger. Adding the fact that he's naturally creative, and backed up by Klan, I don't see much problem with him bailing on a failing VF and surviving.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Kawamori is the one who left the ending open. It's like an adventure for us fans, which is what we love to do: imagine. But this also leads to wars between our ships. AxS fans interpret Ranka differently than AxR fans, and visa versa for Sheryl. AxS fans see Ranka as either a rival in love or a loli who didn't belong in the series at all, who just gets in the way. AxR fans see Sheryl as a stuck up bitch who's lonely and selfish, didn't deserve Alto at all. When our ships collide, we bring money to the Macross franchise. However, viewing the two characters differently leads to "false" evidence that each character did "this or that" to earn Alto's heart. While looking at what you say is chemistry, you forget to interpret Alto first. Kawamori invented the characters. How that character grows is his vision. Bashing characters is bad, as we will never be able to rewrite the character as we see fit, for it is all copyrighted.

The problem is that Ranka's TV characterisation never fit a story about war. Especially not in the position she was in, where bad decisions could cause untold damage and death. She would have been right at home in Jewelpet, K-On! and Shugo Chara! (out of the three, Jewelpet would be the best fit, with Ai-kun as her pet), where school and optimism are the themes of the series.

This is especially prominent when we saw the reactions to WoG's posters; everyone could readily believe that once more, Ranka would devolve into a middle school magical girl, while Sheryl would step up as the Goddess of War. Most promotional art played to these reactions with showing Ranka in this cotton candy cupcake theme, or rather, in the Jewelpet-style (seriously, look at Ranka's promos and then watch an episode of Jewelpet Tinkle, same saturation, sparkles and sugary sweet wonderland).

But the biggest problem isn't merely that Ranka and Akari could fill in for one another (though Akari is less self-centred and more willing to sacrifice her dreams than Ranka is), but that Ranka refuses to grow out of her childishness.

Watch Star Date, as Michael tries to point out the same thing as Ozma did; Ranka is unable to become a songstress. And the most damning part of this, is that Michael folds when Ranka sings at the mall, thinking that her love of music was enough for her to burst forth from her shy shell. In reality, Ranka was about to give up and cry until she sees Alto's paper plane.

She then lucked out that there was a group of people who was testing instruments at the music store and decided to play along (even then, Sheryl's popularity indirectly helped her, as What 'bout My Star was popular enough for the musicians to pick up in the middle of her song).

And lets not kid ourselves, the ending is a non-ending because of the upcoming movies.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

(On a side note to this: Ranka does show some signs of wanting Alto to be happy in his free sky in Ep21, for she mentions it and shows desires to fly too. This leads me to believe her smallest intention was to end the war and give him that sky. Whether or not you see this is up to you. It is just yet another possibility. After all, Ep13 shows that she does like the sky, and even if she looks bored, it is possibly she wanted Alto to show off. After all, he did want to see the sky. And he looks pretty cozy with Ranka in that plane.)

You read an awful lot into things. Ranka has never shown any interest in flying, or even Alto's flying beyond any crush she has on Alto. Certainly, you could watch it like that, but know that the majority wont.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Spoiler for The rest of my comments has spoilers for the movie, sadly...:

I think a chance for AruRan in the series is possible. After all, he saw her soul bared before his very eyes and understood her loneliness, pain, and true reasons for leaving the Frontier. He understands her selfless sacrifice to solve the war. This is why he asks her to sing her true song, or the one that lives in her heart to express her love for humanity and life itself (Anata no Oto). Because of this one moment, they reach an understanding of the others feelings throughout the entire series and Alto sees Ranka on a more intimate level, hence his relieved and happy smile. He also sees how much she's grown, making him understand when Ozma said she'd chosen her own path. Even though she is still the "damsel in distress" for a bit of the episode, his feelings for her have grown from that one moment. And Ranka expresses her strength and love for the Frontier, Vajra, and Alto (in that order) by singing with Sheryl, communicating with the Vajra to end the war. Not to mention saving Sheryl's life in the process (which, once again, is damn well weird!)

The whole scene where Alto asks her to sing her true song in that episode actually is a fall in his character. Which is why I view the episode as canon. His dense character falls apart as soon as he sees Ranka's soul. His emotions seem more geared towards Ranka in this episode after that.

After all, he understands everything that happened from the beginning of Ep20 to the middle of battle in Ep25 right as he sees her soul. In this way, he ends up reinstating his promise to Sheryl by leaving her behind to go rescue Ranka even though she is dying. His first promise was to be by her side till the end, yet he watches her die and merely yells for her assistance (also out of worry), and moves towards rescuing Ranka even though Sheryl is dying. His character in Ep25 was torn between the sudden connection and intimate relationship he held with Ranka (and both girls in the end) and the promises he made in the previous episodes (all the way back to Ep1); and finally with the war going on. By this way, they destroyed Alto's character and made him the Tsudere of the whole triangle in Ep25.

If Alto/Sheryl had been the ending of the series, I don't think you would've liked it. Noting what I just pointed out above, his character had altered badly in that one episode. I doubt he would've been changed back, because that would be like ungrowing a character. His reactions to Sheryl would've changed completely, as he saw both of them in a new light and his intimate feelings for Ranka had grown to finally become an "obvious romance." It would've been impossible with the weird way the episode ended for Alto/Sheryl to win out the triangle. As he acts like his entire time with Sheryl while Ranka was gone never existed.

I could see, in the series, an Alto/Ranka ending. The hints were there to see from Ep23 onward.

Before you rant at me for being wrong: all fansubbers of Macross Frontier had different translations for various same lines. I'm familiar with both Thora and AnimeCentral. I shall go with AC for this one and relate it to Thora.

In Ep23, Alto says he joined the S.M.S. to protect Ranka, and then he moved to protect the Frontier. This puts Ranka at the top of his worry list, until she promptly became Brera's responsibility, throwing him towards Sheryl. He says he will kill Ranka if she is perceived to be the enemy. But, as it appears in Ep24, he tries to break through to her regardless of Sheryl's words "save her" from earlier that episode. He tries to understand her. This is the first time he's tried to solely understand her feelings since Ep3's Griffith Park scene.

It is not Sheryl who inspires him but rather Klan, whom asks him "do you love her?" This line is also translated by Thora as "is that your love?" Both oddly have the same context of asking "is this how you express your love?" He says nothing but Sheryl easily bends the answer out for you by the lines "I knew it all along. But just for a little longer." Her sentence states that she believes Alto loves Ranka. Sheryl's plane falling in Ep23 was a statement that her heart was weary, yes; but it was also written on her face the same heartbreak we see in Ep20 with Ranka. She views the whole line of "if Ranka brings an end to the Frontier, if her songs doom us all, I would kill Ranka" as his expression of love for Ranka by freeing her from being the "tool" she stated she was. The line "I may have pretended not to notice things" becomes an apparent spoiler for the fact he wasn't that dense to realize Ranka had pains. He must've noticed it when she said goodbye to him back in Ep21, which is why his face is so confused and pained at the end of that episode.

Then we have the "pour your heart out" scene that everyone talks about. We first see Sheryl staring into the mirror, seemingly worried but also looks about the same as Ranka did when Nanase calls her in Ep11 about Alto being close to Sheryl. Equally enough, this conversation could be viewed in more than one way: Alto really does love Sheryl, Alto is rejecting Sheryl but she doesn't want to hear, or he is silently saying he might die on the battlefield (which this one is more likely, since we are talking about war). But his reaction to Sheryl's kiss is not there. Unlike Ep10, where he at least shows some sort of reaction (eyes widen), he makes no movement and looks as though he's lost/not in the moment. And when Sheryl breaks away, he looks rather guilty, as if he's done something wrong. When he tries to speak, she tells him not to speak or she won't be able to sing (much like Ranka in movie 2). Instead of hugging Sheryl like he does Ranka in the movie, he stands there as she tells him to rescue said girl. Either way, both scenes were written and a final product of Kawamori's vision, and the scenes mirror each other. Which means we are kinda right to assume that clearly Sheryl knows Alto has rejected her.

Go ahead, say this is wrong, but look at the fact that Ranka is not a brave girl. She would never just up and kiss Alto like Sheryl did in Ep24. So Alto takes Sheryl's place and hugs her, then rejects her outwardly. That is the only difference in both scenes: he outwardly rejects Ranka verbally instead of like Sheryl in the series, saying nothing at all.

In the end, Kawamori seemed geared towards Alto/Ranka in the series with the way he'd changed Alto's character quite a bit and made Ranka out to be the heroine who saves Sheryl out of nowhere with a Jesus move. When looking at the end of Ep25 and then the end of the 2nd movie, comparing how the construction was rewritten, you can see that the series was geared for Alto/Ranka to win and the movie towards Alto/Sheryl. If you break down how the characters reacted in the final moments before the battle began from both series and movie, then you will see how the scenes are similar and how the couples were geared in the end.

So, in the end of the series, you have Alto/Ranka. The movie, you have Alto/Sheryl. It's amazing how Kawamori can take an entire episode and rewrite it to go in the opposite direction, huh?

No.

More elaborate answer: Paraphrasing a direct translation of Klan's words "Is that Alto's love?" The subject of Alto's love is never clarified, but personally I think it's love of Frontier that's foremost in his thoughts in that scene (since he offers to kill a friend if they threaten Frontier). However, my opinion is not shared by many others since the statement is so vague. In court, it would be like trying to convict someone of swindling by recording them saying "This is awesome!". Not a very good piece of evidence.

Sheryl is clearly down the Nile when it comes to people's feelings for herself. She thinks that it's all pity now when she's terminally ill. It never occurs to her that Klan and Luca might look at her in a friendly, instead of pitying, light. Luca clearly doesn't want to kill Sheryl, and proposes the use of medicine to prolong her life, something she takes as pity and throws in his face (Be heartless to the very end).

Which is why she didn't want Alto to know, because now she's second-guessing all his motives, even when he does everything he can to show her otherwise. Which is where him barging into her make up room comes from. He might die, Sheryl might die, lets clear up this mess at the very least. And she counters him before he's able to speak because she's so unable to see clearly due to her illness. Sheryl knows that she comes with baggage, and her way is to release Alto from his promise and send him to a girl who might have less (of course, anyone who isn't dying because space bugs are attacking their brains knows that Ranka's situation is worse, if anyone on Frontier is capable of behaving logically).

Sheryl is no reliable narrator when it comes to Alto's feelings. Alto, when it comes to romantic feelings, gunned for Sheryl ever since Star Date (he doesn't even get why Michael brings up Ranka in context of Star Date afterwards, yet he still finds the earring and runs to Sheryl, in which we have a very cute scene of Alto blushing and trying to comfort Sheryl, yet at this point of the series, he didn't know how).

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, you have to see it from Ranka's point of view. She hasn't seen Alto for a while and is unaware of why they are performing like that in the sky in the first place. I'm supposing she was more worried about hair and makeup that morning, then trying to find Alto before the concert starts. Then she sees him shoot through a heart with her name underneath, and she reads a strange message from it. After all, can you blame her? It didn't have to be Alto! And also, she probably didn't really know he was on the stunt team still, as you say, they didn't communicate much after Ep15.

Sorry, but all flight performances are coordinated and planned when performed near an audience (probably away from them as well, to cut down on damages, but there's more room for improvisation). It keeps fliers from clipping their wings into one another and falling out of the sky and colliding with songstresses (see: First episode in which Alto improvises, but forgets that there are others flying around who might be a bit in the way). Sheryl in the first episode (her "bitch" moment) foresees that amateurs might do something unnecessary (and we're even later told about the intoxicating experience of being on stage), and in the context of flying around in Ex-Gear above an audience who will get hurt if things go wrong, that's bad.

Really bad.

And if Ranka couldn't get this by the time the last quarter of the episodes started, she really did not have a place in a series in which aerial crafts featured prominently.

-----

Um, that's what I was able to cobble together, but excessive use of painkillers and wall of spoiler tag text of obscure to non-existent AruRan worship kind of threw me off so I probably did not make much sense.

Anyway, anyone want to talk about the AruSheri cuteness in Bye-Bye Sheryl? Just the right amount of awkwardness (they aren't familiar yet with one another), playfulness, heart-to-heart and unstated worry ("Be sure to return it!") and struggle with the upcoming separation (if Galaxy had indeed been saved and Sheryl finished her goodbye concert, it would have been Bye-Bye Sheryl) to convey chemistry between two characters.

In fact, if you discard the preconceived notion that it's Macross, so there has to be a love triangle, and that Ranka is clearly designed for marketing (Cartooning 101: make your character so unique that they can be recognised by just their silhouette. 2008 anime-ing 101: Moe, and green hair, capitalise on K-On and Code Geass), you could say that the contest was over right then and there (friend-zoning Ranka). Or at the very least, Sheryl pulled ahead by Macross-lengths.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Um, you can't literally say that until Kawamori says he never WANTED to do an AruRan end. Or says they weren't compatible. So, facts are nothing until you have proof that Kawamori didn't just do this ending for the fans.

No, I can't say that, especially because I wasn't saying that. Nobody of us knows what exactly Kawamoris thoughts on the matter were. Otherwise, this whole debate about whom ended up with Alto would have been over years ago.

But we can do story and character analysis to get to a clear conclusion about what was most likely to happen after the closing credits. And that analysis points clearly to Sheryl and Alto continueing on with their life together, while Ranka looks in from the outside, at least romantically.

For Ranka to have a serious chance again, she first would need to upgrade her maturity level to be competitive with Sheryl, i.e. change over her personality to movie!Ranka. That takes time. Time in which the SherylxAlto relationship would also be on-going.

There is of course the chance for some sort of disaster to befall Sheryl, so that she is out of the picture for a prolonged period and Ranka gets her chance to play catch-up with Alto.

Spoiler for movie:

Y'know, like in the movie. Where Ranka still lost.

But in the normal course of things, Sheryl and Alto have already moved so far beyond Ranka in levels of maturity and their relationship that it is simply not possible anymore for Ranka to catch up to them.

And even then. She'd still have to pry Alto away from Sheryl. Which means playing homewrecker. Do you honestly think Ranka as a person would be capable of that, both in the realms of courage and decency?


----

Clearly we need to get Irisiel on painkillers as many times as possible, that was an excellent reply. As always.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I don't think it was two weeks, mainly because I can't find or remember any concrete dates in the series, but also because space is such a vast place, and we must remember that not just Ranka and Brera had the time to get to Vajra planet, but also that Quarter manages to not only get to that other colony, but also to search through it for evidence and find and travel to Vajra planet.

I say that it's at least a month (4 weeks = 4 = Quart/Quad/Tetra = Quarter = 25 = 25th anniversary) for symmetry, but I could see that even with folding, the sheer distances covered could easily make it into four months. Either case, it was long enough for Alto and Sheryl to become very familiar and comfortable with one another.

Well, I'd say four months sounds, realistically speaking, a bit too long, but for my shipper and Sheryl fan heart, it'd be an ideal time.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

And no, Alto didn't reach into Ranka's soul. He simply appeared in the Vajra network along with Sheryl. Notice that even Brera appeared in the network, and he was the one who encouraged Ranka after she started singing and they both broke the mind control.

Ahahahaha. Yeah, I must say I think everybody else, including me, straight forgot about Brera being present in the Vajra network. Would that mean that he also now has "perfect knowledge" of Alto and Sheryl?

Originally Posted by Irisiel

More elaborate answer: Paraphrasing a direct translation of Klan's words "Is that Alto's love?" The subject of Alto's love is never clarified, but personally I think it's love of Frontier that's foremost in his thoughts in that scene (since he offers to kill a friend if they threaten Frontier). However, my opinion is not shared by many others since the statement is so vague. In court, it would be like trying to convict someone of swindling by recording them saying "This is awesome!". Not a very good piece of evidence.

I do share your opinion. Frontier comes even before Sheryl in Altos priorities. And she knows and accepts that.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Anyway, anyone want to talk about the AruSheri cuteness in Bye-Bye Sheryl? Just the right amount of awkwardness (they aren't familiar yet with one another), playfulness, heart-to-heart and unstated worry ("Be sure to return it!") and struggle with the upcoming separation (if Galaxy had indeed been saved and Sheryl finished her goodbye concert, it would have been Bye-Bye Sheryl) to convey chemistry between two characters.

It was definitely one of the sweetest moments they had. Both being tsun-tsun, yet incredibly dere-dere and so damn awkward. Then the levels of subtext, which you already enumerated so expertly.

I do remember that I think Westlo said that a lot of Ranka shippers were ready to give up already after this episode.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

In fact, if you discard the preconceived notion that it's Macross, so there has to be a love triangle, and that Ranka is clearly designed for marketing (Cartooning 101: make your character so unique that they can be recognised by just their silhouette. 2008 anime-ing 101: Moe, and green hair, capitalise on K-On and Code Geass), you could say that the contest was over right then and there (friend-zoning Ranka). Or at the very least, Sheryl pulled ahead by Macross-lengths.

I wouldn't exactly say that Sheryl wasn't build for marketing ( her, until then, pretty unique hair-colour alone was a selling point ), but Ranka clearly is the one with the unique hairstyle, special pose ( KIRA! ) and other marketable attributes. If that friend-zoned her from the beginning would be an interesting discussion.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Bah, Beto is too mellow. Must be that agreeable Brazilian climate

Nothing mellow about the climate here, these days, tho. End of days stuff, really.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Actually, until anyone sees the 2nd movie, no one can actually comment, as no one has scene the scene I am referring to.

You do realize some people that post here have seen the movie, right?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Plus, even if they did, Ep24 is a complete reflection of

Spoiler for movie:

the rejection scene in Movie 2, just with Ranka this time.

So, you can say all you want about it, but I think Kawamori just showed you

Spoiler for movie:

that the series was Ranka's win and the movie was Sheryl's.

After all, Sheryl got more screen time in the series, especially with Alto, so he gave Ranka more screen time in the movie, especially with Alto. See the counter balance?

I honestly want to see where you take this screen time bull from. The movie I did watch didn't seem all that Ranka-centric, nor do the spoilers from the second movie imply such.

And, about the scenes you point out in the series and the second movie as being similar, those are what's normally referred to as homage. You know, like a lot of scenes and situations from the series itself. Even you cannot say that the happenings were exactly the same, or the results. That's a lot of reaching, you're doing, and it's not really working.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Why should the idea of Ranka winning in the series make you mad? After all, Kawamori gave you guys the win in the movies. So, it makes little difference anymore. And the scenes were reflections of each other, only difference:

Spoiler for movie:

Alto didn't live with Ranka but went on a date with her recently.

Ranka winning in the series goes against her own words at the end of episode 25, when she issues her "challenge" to Sheryl.
So, another load of reaching, as you cannot seem to make a single good point.

[Elazul]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Um, you can't literally say that until Kawamori says he never WANTED to do an AruRan end. Or says they weren't compatible. So, facts are nothing until you have proof that Kawamori didn't just do this ending for the fans.

Do you really believe in such a thing?

Spoiler for 2nd movie:

If Mr.Kawamori really wanted to please the fans, he should have made an end where we all could see Alto and Sheryl happily married, walking side by side in a green field, with Ranka, Brera, Osma, Klan and Michael waiting for them under a cherry blossom tree, so they all could enjoy a picnic together. Happy endings are a safer way to please the audience, but he gave us a bittersweet one instead.
There's no way that someone could force this guy to do something that he does not wants. He’s already proved that he got guts to make series that a lot of people consider them as bad or having "arguably quality" at least like Macross 7. Plus, he gave an ok to the tv series ending, and we all know how much pissed the fans got. This guy does what he wants to do, it’s for sure.

Furthermore, don't think of Macross as a some sort of a visual novel adaptation that follows an omnibus format, where the main guy can get all the girls in alternate routes. In Macross, everything is canon. They solved the triangle in the second movie, so now it means that Sheryl and Alto are now officially the lovers of the MF universe, and the future continuities will mention them as such. There’s no way that there's could be a chance for Alto x Ranka in the tv series simply because Alto x Sheryl is now canon, like Hikaru and Misa are, in both continuities.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Nothing mellow about the climate here, these days, tho. End of days stuff, really.

In autumn? That sounds bad.

[BetoJR]

Yep, pretty bad. Landslides and flash-floods and the like. Some places are worse than others, but even where I live - where the tropical climate is very even most of the time - it's still bad. And it's supposed to be summer, here.

And Elazul brings up a very nice point: the notion that Kawamori could be bullied by fan expectations is something quite unimaginable to me. Why do people enjoy fantasizing so much?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Yep, pretty bad. Landslides and flash-floods and the like. Some places are worse than others, but even where I live - where the tropical climate is very even most of the time - it's still bad. And it's supposed to be summer, here.

Ouch. I hope things turn out well for you and your loved ones.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

About 1 year passed since he joined the S.M.S. by the end, so I guess, a little over that for how long he knew Sheryl.

i see...so alto is 19, sheryl, 18, and ranka is 17 for sure...
too bad kawamori did not make any birthday scene in the series or in the movie..

BEST PRESENT 4 SHERYL :
"ALTO falling from the SKY"

Spoiler for spoiler:

image...not possible..to be found

BEST PRESENT 4 ALTO : - if u know what i mean...


BEST PRESENT 4 ranka :

[Tak]

Originally Posted by SethEng

I'm surprised that Kags didn't reference the whole salute scene in that wall of text.

I remember that, and it was funny how some claimed the salute was for Ranka (nevermind she was the object of rescue and dancing away while Sheryl being the only one who saluted...)

I think they missed that homage scene from oldie Macross entirely.

- Tak

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I'd say four months sounds, realistically speaking, a bit too long, but for my shipper and Sheryl fan heart, it'd be an ideal time.

Keep in mind that Quarter managed to find a dead colony and search it (space moves, so eleven years of movement, and considering that transponders and other locating devices would not be repaired, upgraded or maintained, and that bits and pieces, some probably with working locating devices, have broken away from the main body, creating false noise, and you have your work cut out), so while four months is maximum, one month is minimum in my canon (meaning that Quarter got really, REALLY lucky).

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Ahahahaha. Yeah, I must say I think everybody else, including me, straight forgot about Brera being present in the Vajra network. Would that mean that he also now has "perfect knowledge" of Alto and Sheryl?

Could be the answer as to why he was so desperate to get on Alto's good side during the last battle. And he gave a rather radiant smile watching Alto flying around, so he might have hoped to enter a triad relationship with Princess and Queen.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I do share your opinion. Frontier comes even before Sheryl in Altos priorities. And she knows and accepts that.

Actually, I think Sheryl ranks together with Frontier at the top of Alto's list at that moment. He is more than willing to throw away the protection of Sheryl's song if it meant that Sheryl would survive, but Sheryl herself values Frontier higher than herself, so he has to put Frontier first, or Sheryl's sacrifice would be for nothing.

It's one of the things that makes AruSheri work; they're not completely defined by one another. Separated, they're strong, together, they're unstoppable. When Alto has a moment of hesitation it is Sheryl who tells him that it's her life to throw away if she so wishes, and he, while he doesn't accept that she should have to die, accepts her decision and becomes the support needed to see it through.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I wouldn't exactly say that Sheryl wasn't build for marketing ( her, until then, pretty unique hair-colour alone was a selling point ), but Ranka clearly is the one with the unique hairstyle, special pose ( KIRA! ) and other marketable attributes. If that friend-zoned her from the beginning would be an interesting discussion.

Hair-colour aside, Sheryl's most marketable asset is her personality, which is hard to convey on posters and in merchandise (though they really hit the jackpot with Goddess of War Sheryl with the Bird Human flag, standing tall even as the world burns around her). By contrast, most of Ranka's selling points are highly visual and easily recognisable (fang, hair, pose, phone). Notice how Ranka seems a lot more confident and happy in posters than how she turned out in the series? Yeah.

Originally Posted by Tak

I remember that, and it was funny how some claimed the salute was for Ranka (nevermind while she was dancing away with Sheryl being the only one who saluted...)

I think they missed that scene from oldie Macross entirely.

- Tak

I missed it the first time around, as there is a bit of misdirection in the shot (Ranka's dance calls for a point, and one doesn't really see everything in the background during the first viewing. For those who want to look for it: Alto has positioned himself between Quarter and Battle Frontier, and that Quarter and Battle Frontier are facing the planet, while Ranka is facing away from Battle Frontier, while Sheryl is facing Quarter and Alto; you can see Quarter's head behind Alto's Messiah, and take into consideration where the screens pop up between Sheryl and Ranka.).

Missing Hikaru's salute, however, I don't even know how. I mean, it's right before Minmay's "wings" movement in Do You Remember Love.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Keep in mind that Quarter managed to find a dead colony and search it (space moves, so eleven years of movement, and considering that transponders and other locating devices would not be repaired, upgraded or maintained, and that bits and pieces, some probably with working locating devices, have broken away from the main body, creating false noise, and you have your work cut out), so while four months is maximum, one month is minimum in my canon (meaning that Quarter got really, REALLY lucky).

Hm, wasn't Gallia IV the dead colony? In that case Quarter should have known where it was immediately, due to Sheryl, Alto, Michael and Ranka visiting there earlier. Although in that case, you'd also think that Ozma would have shown somewhat more of a reaction to all the people going there initially.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Actually, I think Sheryl ranks together with Frontier at the top of Alto's list at that moment. He is more than willing to throw away the protection of Sheryl's song if it meant that Sheryl would survive, but Sheryl herself values Frontier higher than herself, so he has to put Frontier first, or Sheryl's sacrifice would be for nothing.

It's one of the things that makes AruSheri work; they're not completely defined by one another. Separated, they're strong, together, they're unstoppable. When Alto has a moment of hesitation it is Sheryl who tells him that it's her life to throw away if she so wishes, and he, while he doesn't accept that she should have to die, accepts her decision and becomes the support needed to see it through.

I like your analysis more than mine. I may be overemphasizing a bit on Altos sense of duty.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Hair-colour aside, Sheryl's most marketable asset is her personality, which is hard to convey on posters and in merchandise (though they really hit the jackpot with Goddess of War Sheryl with the Bird Human flag, standing tall even as the world burns around her). By contrast, most of Ranka's selling points are highly visual and easily recognisable (fang, hair, pose, phone). Notice how Ranka seems a lot more confident and happy in posters than how she turned out in the series? Yeah.

Yeah, the War Sheryl really hit the spot. As for Ranka, I think around episode 11-12 she actually was being the person advertised. And then the writers decided to deconstruct her. I am still asking myself: Why?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by solothurn

Alto = Kyosuke, Sheryl = Madoka, Ranka = Hikaru. Can't unsee.

Too bad Alto doesn't have two sisters and Sheryl doesn't have a crazy tomboy lesbian stalker.

Doesn't she have a Meltran one in Secret Visions?

Alto has... um Michel and Luca!

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think Kawamori just showed you

Spoiler for movie:

that the series was Ranka's win and the movie was Sheryl's.

The resolution of the movie is mean to be the final of the love triangle. It's being promoted that way as official statement. Didn't Kawamori state that he ended it in the pre-movie interview? The subtitle of The Wings of Goodbye: the end of triangle. Seems... pretty final (like the voice actors' interview). I'll say, them, the official released statement and promotion, the scriptwriter who worked with Kawamori have a better insight about his opinion than you do.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Um, you can't literally say that until Kawamori says he never WANTED to do an AruRan end. Or says they weren't compatible. So, facts are nothing until you have proof that Kawamori didn't just do this ending for the fans.

If he wanted to please both Ranka and Sheryl fans, he'll have ended it Sheryl/Ranka happy end (Which is far more popular than Alto/Ranka, by the way, if we judge the amount of fanworks). With all the official material released, it has it close to Sheryl/Alto in popularity. But did HE?

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by Elazul

Spoiler for 2nd movie:

Furthermore, don't think of Macross as a some sort of a visual novel adaptation that follows an omnibus format, where the main guy can get all the girls in alternate routes. In Macross, everything is canon. They solved the triangle in the second movie, so now it means that Sheryl and Alto are now officially the lovers of the MF universe, and the future continuities will mention them as such. There’s no way that there's could be a chance for Alto x Ranka in the tv series simply because Alto x Sheryl is now canon, like Hikaru and Misa are, in both continuities.

Spoiler for 2nd movie spoilers:

That's a very good point! Before the 2nd movie, some people were theorizing that Macross Frontier is a perfect triangle threesome relationship, because of the TV series' ending. However, now that the triangle is resolved, all alternative theories from before (Alto choosing no one, Alto choosing both, AltoxRanka) are rendered obsolute. Nada. Irrelevant.

Honestly, I think with the ending of the 2nd movie, it automatically gives a hint as to which interpretation is right in the TV series finale. It's that simple really. How hard is it for Ranka fans to accept it?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Spoiler for 2nd movie spoilers:

That's a very good point! Before the 2nd movie, some people were theorizing that Macross Frontier is a perfect triangle threesome relationship, because of the TV series' ending. However, now that the triangle is resolved, all alternative theories from before (Alto choosing no one, Alto choosing both, AltoxRanka) are rendered obsolute. Nada. Irrelevant.

Honestly, I think with the ending of the 2nd movie, it automatically gives a hint as to which interpretation is right in the TV series finale. It's that simple really. How hard is it for Ranka fans to accept it?

Spoiler for spoilers:

Likely impossible.

I just hope the bittersweet movie ending doesn't overwrite the TV series completely.

Unless they have Alto return in the BD, then I guess it's okay, after all Klan can keep Michael that way.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Spoiler for spoilers:

Likely impossible.

I just hope the bittersweet movie ending doesn't overwrite the TV series completely.

Unless they have Alto return in the BD, then I guess it's okay, after all Klan can keep Michael that way.

Spoiler for best of both worlds:

Mixing? Nyan Nyan 2? *hopes* I hope we get the best of both canons:

From TV series:
Most secondary character development.
Character development in general.
Brera alive at the end.
Happy ending.
PLOT in general and communication issues resolve.
Grace as villain (please! She's better than Leon).

From the movies:
The end of triangle.
Michel is alive.
Movie Ranka and Movie Brera characterization (his connection with Alto and Sheryl).
Most realistic way to cure Sheryl's disease (and additions to her backstory).
Two earrings.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for best of both worlds:

Mixing? Nyan Nyan 2? *hopes* I hope we get the best of both canons:

From TV series:
Most secondary character development.
Character development in general.
Brera alive at the end.
Happy ending.
PLOT in general and communication issues resolve.
Grace as villain (please! She's better than Leon).

From the movies:
The end of triangle.
Michel is alive.
Movie Ranka and Movie Brera characterization (his connection with Alto and Sheryl).
Most realistic way to cure Sheryl's disease (and additions to her backstory).
Two earrings.

That sounds pretty good. Well, let's hope it will be that way and not... the other way around.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That sounds pretty good. Well, let's hope it will be that way and not... the other way around.

Hmm... Hopefully, yes. Was Michel's death show in Nyan Nyan clip? *goes to watch*

Edit: It doesn't. Last thing he appears he's battered and fighting (movieverse). Good!

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Thess

Hmm... Hopefully, yes. Was Michel's death show in Nyan Nyan clip? *goes to watch*

Edit: It doesn't. Last thing he appears he's battered and fighting (movieverse). Good!

I really like your idea, it would resolve many things.

But are you sure about Mikhail's death not being showed in the Nyan Nyan Clip? I remember that they show it in the last song when Sheryl and Ranka are singing at Mihoshi academy, hmm I need to watch it again.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

I really like your idea, it would resolve many things.

But are you sure about Mikhail's death not being showed in the Nyan Nyan Clip? I remember that they show it in the last song when Sheryl and Ranka are singing at Mihoshi academy, hmm I need to watch it again.

Nope! In Lion, it shows the moments before it happens, Klan a little down after the fact, but his last image was him fighting (movieverse). They left it open in a good way (it doesn't show him dying and it shows him fighting afterwards).

Not like with Roy (who ends up dead either way *sighs*) where his death is addressed in two songs (Love Drifts Away and Do you Remember Love?).

[Irisiel]

Hm, wasn't Gallia IV the dead colony? In that case Quarter should have known where it was immediately, due to Sheryl, Alto, Michael and Ranka visiting there earlier. Although in that case, you'd also think that Ozma would have shown somewhat more of a reaction to all the people going there initially.

Apparently it was Gallia IV (I went back and checked), however, their target was floating in space, completely mashed up, so I still say that they had to waste time flying around until they made visual contact (and yes, even Earth's orbit is a huge place to search, and the location Ozma and the others were after was floating in the bits and pieces left from Gallia IV, so radar would be useless). Considering that the valkyries had to sortie to find it, I think they had to visually search for it through the rubble, which would take time, so yeah, I say at least a month. And I can say that they were lucky to find it in just a month; even in orbit, it could take years to find specific space waste (which is what that ship was after the planet destruction). And they were even lucky that files were still filed into their places after a whole planet went boom (and that paper is apparently indestructible; wouldn't heat or something affect the books they found?).

Still, it makes little difference, as Alto and Sheryl clearly had enough time to become comfortable with each other. Just not long enough for Alto convince Sheryl that he isn't doing it out of pity. And Sheryl is stubborn when she's made up her mind, so he has his work cut out for him.

Anyway, one interesting aspect of Star Date and Bye-Bye Sheryl is how Alto reacts to the date after the date.

One theory held forward by AruRan shippers is that starry-eyed Alto (Pfft! Even Sheryl realised that he treated her like anyone else) only put up with Sheryl because she's famous/rich/pretty, but if that was the case, wouldn't there have been a little bragging (remember, Alto is a bit sensitive about being seen as a man at this point in the series), especially since Michael tries to encourage it? All Alto had to do is to snap back a comment about at least he doesn't have to fail getting dates with a hundred women before getting one, without even implicating Sheryl.

Instead he's embarrassed and wants the matter dropped. Then we move to the next scene, in which Nanase has dragged out the boys to congratulate Ranka:
Nanase is overly excited and hyper and OMG! This is so great!
Luca mirrors Nanase because of his crush.
Michael is supportive and happy for Ranka.
Alto is the least interested of the lot.

Then Alto lies and says that he was alone at the mall, which is easily glossed over, except that lies takes more brain power than truth. So which scenario do you find believable:
A) Alto is savvy about show biz and knows that if it's known that Sheryl "Galactic Fairy" Nome and Alto "Sakura-hime" Saotome dated, there would be scandals, and his quiet life would be disrupted and Sheryl, who is still at the whim of the paparazzi and fans, have to counter it.
B) Alto doesn't want Ranka to know that he went on a date with Sheryl.
C) Alto has a small attraction towards Sheryl, but knows that she'll soon leave and doesn't want to start the media circus such a rumour would cause for a relationship that wont go anywhere.
D) Any combination of the above?

Considering how he acted afterwards with the earring (he was on duty, and shouldn't have left Quarter [which is why Michael and Ozma are cross with him before sortie], yet he did, which is why I think Sheryl ranks higher than his duty and Frontier, because he repeatedly breaks both promises and duties if it's for Sheryl, even this early in the series), I almost have to say A and C. He couldn't tell Michael, who told him that he saw Sheryl with him, that he wasn't with Sheryl, but he'll be damned if he'll admit it to anyone else.

But he also wont expand too much energy on denying it either. If Ranka admitted to seeing Sheryl with him, then he'd probably tell her that Sheryl was with him.

It's really fascinating going back like this and pick up on the little things Alto does. Especially when you realise that he must have a reason for doing them (heck, we eat because we're hungry; Alto lies because he knows that the consequences will get out of proportion; Luca fanboys over Ranka because Nanase fangirls).

And one of these days I'm going to do that mammoth essay on Frontier and post it because I have a thousand little things to point out and discuss.