2012-06-20, 01:16 | Link #21 |
Defying gravity
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Database for Episode 8-9
Spoiler for Floor Map (thanks margafred and AC-Phoenix):
Spoiler for Items:
Spoiler for Sherlock (possible references for Hongou) (thanks Calca):
Spoiler for Notes:
Spoiler for Side Notes:
Spoiler for Main Question:
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2012-06-20, 08:36 | Link #22 |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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The anime floor plan makes me ask whether Kounosu's position on my plan is really right though, because she was drawn outside.
So yes it its technically possible to pull it off like papermario13689 suggested, its abit risky though because someone else could easily come to one of the corridors. So it is possbile to do it this way - too risky though imho considering how she had no chance of doing this without taking the risk of being seen by someone other than the victim. I'll for now stick with my chute theory, as one would probably need to know the culprits modus operandi in the marked sherlock books, which i haven't read and no time to do so either before the episode comes out. And I hate reading the outcome of a book before anything else... I'll later submit a translated floorplan from the novel's illustrations btw - no spoilers in there the novel is not as far ahead the anime to give out any cluees. (at least not the translated version) Please also note that we don't know if the room was really locked or Katsuta just pretended that he found it locked - no one else ever checked it. Edit: Here is the promised floor plan - its the Novel's, so you so please ignore the 'control room' labels and replace them with waiting room in your mind. I also took the liberty of drawing papermario's and my theory in as I have yet to hear any other theories involving the rope(See page 1 for both in more detail). the gold somehow turned orange on the map - so ignore the color inconsistency. Spoiler for space:
I do btw have a theory allowing to enter the right stage room from the left in the meantime, but if this is true I'm going to puke over this floor plan.... Edit --> Badnews: Both theories are sound and very much possible, but only if you have watched the anime, becasue the Novel neither mention's the chute nor any other windows than the one in Kaito's room - so we don't know if they were opened like in the anime.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-20 at 16:45. |
2012-06-21, 05:34 | Link #23 |
Zetsubou gunsou
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Age: 42
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The problem here is that we have two different mysteries to solve:
- the original one as intended by Hongou - a new one that has to make sense after the film crew messed around with the script As mentioned before the room only has the appearance of being a closed room. There are some ways to circumvent the door being closed. The window is of course irrelevant, and I’ll ignore whatever trapdoor there could be as no such device has been made evident. It’s also likely that the master key is a red herring. The possibilities are: - Katsuta faked the door being closed - The key seen next to Kaito’s severed arm is not the room’s key, but the murderer’s - The murderer made a double of the keys on a previous trip (only Kounosu could have done that since she’s the one who suggested the building) - There was no murder, and Kaito closed the room himself (quite possible in Hongou’s original script; unlikely in the movie alteration unless Kaito has an unrevealed twin brother, which would break a Knox rule) Now if murder there was, who could have done it? - Kounousu: has it easiest since she can climb down the wall with the rope on her side of the building and enter through a window, without risking being seen. The rope is then used to climb back up. - Katsuta and Yamanishi: have it hardest as no matter where they go through they risk being seen by another party. It would also certainly require them to be accomplices. - Sugimura and Senoue: same as above So either: - Kounosu is the murderer, and she left her key in the room - Kounosu is the murderer, and Katsuta is her accomplice There are also possibilities which involve more of the classmates to work together, but that’s stretching it too far to be plausible meta-wise. Making a “Kounousu killed Kaito and disguised the closed room” hypothesis works quite well. Somehow it doesn’t feel satisfying though; it’s too obvious. It’s the sort of easy speculation Cpt. Hastings or Inspector Japp would make before being deconstructed by Poirot. Note that a “mystery without murder” is quite possible in Hongou’s original script, especially if one considers her inspiration. It would help knowing if Kaitou was confirmed dead in the novel, as it’s not clear from the script we were allowed to read in the anime. It does break Van Dine’s seventh rule though. |
2012-06-21, 09:41 | Link #24 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
So I'm basically back where I started out before I saw that chute. Katsuta faked that the room was closed. There is another option though. That marketing girl gave Eru a book with the meeting protocoll, where they took viotes on the rmurder weapon one of them was a rope the majority however decided on a knife - with a note added in () 'Houngu has the final say' afterwards she ordered a rope. I therefore conclude that the rope is the murder weapon, which does again point to Kounosu as the culprit since she is the only one having acess to it through her club. Plus it would open up a possibility to murder kaitou while being the smallest girl. Katsuta ccould have btw also used a window to get to the crime scene, namely the one in his own control room. Oreki's arguemnt that everyone would see him is just valid as long as the culprit does not walk around the building from the front - Both Yamanishi and Sugimura wouldn't have had him in their Line of sight of he sticked close to the wall. So basically: Out of his own control room ---> Sticking close to the FRONTAL wall--> getting back inside other control room --> murdering Kaitou--> going back the same way he got there. Another notable thing about Sawaguchi's note is that they were discussing how many culpirts the movie should have. They decided for more than one killer with the same mark as above 'Houngu has the final say' --> Violation of van Dine ---> Houngu decided for but one culpirt No matter how you look at it - Kounosu is probably the culprit - the only question that remains is the howdunnit, since you can't use the rope for both climbing down and murdering Kaitou
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2012-06-21, 21:19 | Link #25 |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 32
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Hey, thanks for drawing up the little theories on the map, AC-Phoenix. It really helps puts things into perspective. Since the atrium was only accessible from the left side where two others would have been exploring, my top guess would be that Kounosu used the window with the "alternative location" marker.
The weapon (or perhaps lack thereof) interests me. There are plenty of ways to kill someone instantly from behind, despite a difference in size. I find it odd how they mention that anything you need to solve the mystery is in the film itself, but then they disclose the information about the rope and Kounosu's background afterwards. Either way, Kounosu might have had the knowledge on how to kill instantly from behind, or perhaps her backpack contained more things that a skilled climber would know how to use. How about rock picks? Who says there's one rope? Stuff like that could be food for thought. And look at me prattling on saying "Kounosu this, and Kounosu that". I'm still finding myself in an unsettling accusation when I'm blaming the quiet and mysterious girl. I can't be sure it's Kounosu, but at the moment she has the most clues leading back to her.
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2012-06-22, 06:10 | Link #26 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
See post above. Question is how she got into the room then because you can't use it as both weapon and way to get down. And don't worry Katsuta is just as suspicious as her; he could have still used his own window and walked around the front close to the wall, though very unlikely as the novel does not mention any other windows than the one on the crime scene. Also note that the Novel floor plan is slightly different from the anime floor plan. The anime floor plan makes you wonder whether katsuta really had no chance of going there without being seen by Sugimura.
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2012-06-22, 06:43 | Link #27 | |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 32
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Quote:
And I thought the production called for nobody to touch the grass? The murderer had to have entered without setting foot to the outside grass or have never exited to begin with. At the moment, Kounosu does seem the most suspect.
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2012-06-22, 08:02 | Link #28 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
but yes I agree Kounosu is still the prime suspect and your theory about the key switch the most likely atm. We still don't know how she got there though - the chute is impossible (not mentioned in novel therefore not existing) Other windows being open were not mentioned either, you can assume that they are the same as the one on the crime scene though - not opened for several years. Edit June 23rd: Read the novel in the meantime - you'll read my rant in a few days :O
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-23 at 14:53. |
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2012-06-23, 17:37 | Link #29 |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 32
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I think I understand, but I have to ask:
- You're implying that Katsuta left the control room through the window, went around from the outside and then into the room next to Kaitou's, much like Kounosu could have from above. Do correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't they say one wasn't allowed to touch the grass? Perhaps they meant just the grass they could see in the film. - Either way, that brings up another concern of mine. Couldn't Yamanishi be just as suspicious using your theory? That room is actually closer and wouldn't require sneaking past anyone's rooms either.
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2012-06-23, 19:38 | Link #30 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
Regarding the grass: Only the one in front of the crime scene. rest: See the edit in my post above :/
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2012-06-25, 01:40 | Link #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Canada, BC
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Is it possible that Katsuta used the rope and climbed to the ceiling of the building and then used it again to go to the control room?
I guess Kounosu would be able to do that too. Also the blockage to the path of the left stage seemed like it could have been done by someone. |
2012-06-25, 04:59 | Link #32 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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If you are asking if i meant that he climbed up - No i meant that he ran around the front and got to said 1st floor window.
And no, you can't climb up without being on the uppeer level first as you have to make sure that the rope is safe to use. So the only person who could have done it atm is Kounosu. Another thing I brought up in the EP 10 discussion thread: Quote:
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-25 at 06:54. |
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2012-06-25, 15:18 | Link #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I'm thinking that the culprit is the glasses boy sugimura. I can't explain how this theory could work though so I'll just tell you guys how it happened.
Sugimura entered the equipment room, and found a rope. He opened the window and used the rope to leave his room so that no one will notice him. Then he went to find kaitou and he attacked him. He exchange keys with the victim and locked the room, and then return to his room using the rope again. I was suspecting that he injured himself while returning to his room, the window probably have broken glass and he cut himself. That can explain why he touch the victims blood. Oh I almost forgot. There's one thing I have to mention in here. Kounosu is the detective. It's pretty obvious so don't ask why. Just watch the video again and you'll easily figure it out. Last edited by unsuspectingvisitor; 2012-06-25 at 15:32. |
2012-06-25, 15:35 | Link #34 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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My first thought was that the rope was related to some kind of actualsuicide connected to the author. After all, we don't really know why the writer is ill, and it would explain why Oreki never considered the rope (because he was thinking from the film's perspective and didn't consider the outside). It's a bit of a stretch though.
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2012-06-25, 19:06 | Link #35 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
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2012-06-25, 23:32 | Link #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Quote:
I don't think that there's a 7th person though. That's just a stupid presumption of the main character. |
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2012-06-26, 05:39 | Link #39 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Quote:
If you examine the rope they have shown us you will quickly realize that it is a rope meant for climbing. --> She is in the mountaineering club... Ad 7th person: No he is right; hongou was looking for a 7th actor. Plus she is the only one able to Pull this crme off using a rope atm - and Knox 7th the detective himself must not commit the crime.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-26 at 06:00. |
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2012-06-26, 07:09 | Link #40 |
Portable Dude Mk. II
Artist
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: All ghillied up spying on someone ~2,000 yards away using telescope sights.
Age: 35
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I'm basing my statements from memory, but when Oreki concluded the mystery, he did not specify the tools and method of murder the suspect used, only how the killer is able to get into the victim's room without suspicion. There's also blood used as props, if that was the case then the murderer will have traces on blood either on them or the tool they used. Which raises a question on why there was no suspicion, even on the suspect themselves, of blood?
Which leads me to think that the rope might play a role on that somehow, but how, I can't think further than that...
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