[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[turlingdrome]

Originally Posted by haguruma

When it comes to "writing broken games", EP5 is a clear example that this is allowed to a certain extent. Like EP8 (manga) tells us, the author of End made the culprit do things that they could do but wouldn't. This ended up creating a game without love, since love was the reason that the culprit would never choose the move that the author of End made them do.
And this is where even broken games become huge hints, because they make you reconsider the whydunnit.

Thanks for the detailed answers.
On this point though, I can't say I'm convinced. Let's use chessboard thinking on Ryuukishi... Clearly, he's trying to show us a game without love, but why on Earth would he go into so much Gameboard detail? In fact, EP5 might have the most Gameboard details of any EP. Did he really spend that much time just to say "people without love write bad, unsolvable mysteries?", something that can be explained in one sentence? To me, that sort of implies that trying to understand the details of what happened on the EP5 Gameboard is completely useless. And yet, he does leave some unresolved mysteries there, prompting us to waste our time looking for a legitimate solution.

I can't see any author intentionally writing a broken puzzle and then still challenging us to solve it, especially not Ryuukishi. If the puzzle looks broken, it must be because we're missing something. And I think there is a rational explanation that covers most of what happens in EP5.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Thanks for the detailed answers.
On this point though, I can't say I'm convinced. Let's use chessboard thinking on Ryuukishi... Clearly, he's trying to show us a game without love, but why on Earth would he go into so much Gameboard detail? In fact, EP5 might have the most Gameboard details of any EP. Did he really spend that much time just to say "people without love write bad, unsolvable mysteries?", something that can be explained in one sentence? To me, that sort of implies that trying to understand the details of what happened on the EP5 Gameboard is completely useless. And yet, he does leave some unresolved mysteries there, prompting us to waste our time looking for a legitimate solution.

I can't see any author intentionally writing a broken puzzle and then still challenging us to solve it, especially not Ryuukishi. If the puzzle looks broken, it must be because we're missing something. And I think there is a rational explanation that covers most of what happens in EP5.

LOL, actually the while definition 'game without love' can very well apply to PieceSayo.

In Ep 5 PieceSayo is someone who's not moved by love but by revenge. She doesn't want to be stopped, she doesn't care about Battler, she just wants to make Natsuhi feel miserable and scared.

It's an option Sayo had, but one she discharged because focusing on Battler, her loved one, was more important, because her feelings of love which she fears will never be fulfilled, are her main thoughts.

Ep 5 is not bad as a mystery. We've plenty of good mystery who focus on revenge. It's just that the motive isn't love. It is a game that wasn't constructed so that PieceBattler could solve it. PieceErika's presence is an accident.
PieceSayo didn't want to be stopped by her or anyone else, didn't want to challenge someone into doing it.

This doesn't make her terribly out of character. She probably would have wanted to get revenge on Natsuhi... only it wasn't her priority.

Ep 5 has low chances to happen but could have happened.

Ep 5 is also meant to be different because it's not a message from MetaBeatrice to MetaBattler.
Lambda was playing with Bern so in a way it's a message to Bern... although Lambda used it as a message to Battler also to teach him extra stuffs. Ep 5 though reflect Lambda's character as a gamemaster and we were told right from Ep 2 that Lambda would have played her game differently from Beato, creating a piece that would go straight for victory. PieceSayo from Ep 5 wants to win with certain, she doesn't want to be stopped. She reflects Lambda. Sayo could have chosen this possibility and it's hinted she considered it. The last rule is the last she establishes and she does so when she realizes she doesn't want to kill her beloved ones, when she starts to have doubts.

In a way Ep 5 could have been one of her early games... when she thought she wouldn't feel regret not hesitation.

[turlingdrome]

I could definitely see Yasu pulling a prank on Natsuhi to get back at her, but the cruelty in those calls goes far beyond any of her prior witch pranks. Plus, it sounds like you're implying she killed Krauss at least, the father of one of the people Yasu loves. Also, why would she suddenly decide to get her revenge now, coincidentally during the Family Conference when Battler gets back. Does she really think she can get away with it, or does she expect Battler and the other cousins will side with her?

In the other games, we're assuming she's so obsessed by love that she can't avoid doing a mass forced suicide. In this game, she's so ambivalent about love that she commits an entirely unrelated murder, a murder of the parent of her oldest friend and possible love interest, solely for the purpose of having revenge against a third party.

Yes, most people could probably become murderers under the right circumstances, but what set of circumstances could drive Yasu to commit this particular murder?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

I could definitely see Yasu pulling a prank on Natsuhi to get back at her, but the cruelty in those calls goes far beyond any of her prior witch pranks. Plus, it sounds like you're implying she killed Krauss at least, the father of one of the people Yasu loves. Also, why would she suddenly decide to get her revenge now, coincidentally during the Family Conference when Battler gets back. Does she really think she can get away with it, or does she expect Battler and the other cousins will side with her?

In the other games, we're assuming she's so obsessed by love that she can't avoid doing a mass forced suicide. In this game, she's so ambivalent about love that she commits an entirely unrelated murder, a murder of the parent of her oldest friend and possible love interest, solely for the purpose of having revenge against a third party.

Yes, most people could probably become murderers under the right circumstances, but what set of circumstances could drive Yasu to commit this particular murder?

Natsuhi is the reason why she's furniture (a being incapable to give birth). Natsuhi is the reason why she didn't grow up as a member of the Ushiromiya family but had to be raised in an orphanage without friends. Natsuhi is the reason why she spent a good part of the first years of her life in bed and was underdeveloped enough she looked three years younger. Natsuhi is the reason she had to do the heavy work of a servant in a harsh environment where everyone bullied her. Natsuhi always jumped at her for the slightest mistake and gave her harsh punishment that included continuing to work no stop with no food. Natsuhi established useless extra jobs or requested jobs to be redone according to her whim. Natsuhi talks so much about pride and honour but she's a murderer, attempted infanticide, is Krauss' accomplice in committing embelezzement, is hiding Kinzo's death. Natsuhi is the reason she believes the people she love would reject her.

There's more than enough to have days in which you totally want to kill Natsuhi slowly and painfully if you're in Sayo's place.
In Ep 5 Battler coming back is a coincidence. She needed the family conference to use the adults as her accomplices as well as killing them too (motives for which she might want revenge on them are detailed in Confession of the Golden Witch).

Ep 5 is not about love. It's about avenging herself for what was done to her by Natsuhi (and a good part of the rest of the family) before committing suicide.

Ep 5 is all about Sayo's anger. Ultimately though... her anger died down. In a way it's as she said in Ep 8 manga version. In her mind she bullied Natsuhi and the others enough so that her anger got satisfied.

In Prime, when the conference was about to start, her game was meant to be one with love.

You can consider Ep 5 as a plan she had during a bad day in which she was totally mad with anger... and that got discharged when she calmed down.

If we think that what went in her mind was similar to the Five Stages of Loss, she likely thought at Ep 5 at her 2 stage, anger.

[turlingdrome]

Definitely, Natsuhi did enough to make Yasu hate her a lot. And Yasu clearly had a motive to write a story where she took revenge against Natsuhi. But as you're saying yourself, that's a temporary emotion. It might explain a spur of the moment crime, but not an intricately planned one featuring several accomplices. Plus, we know Yasu actually did care a lot about all 4 of the cousins. She might forget that when blowing off steam, but you can't rewrite her entire history and have her suddenly ruin their lives and her own for an unrelated matter.

In particular, can you picture her forcing Maria to live through something like this? Or die because of it? We no longer have the excuse that it's all a witch ceremony and everyone's going to the Golden Land. Maria is only a pawn whose life will be ruined for the sake of Yasu's revenge. And for no reason, since Yasu could have killed Natsuhi at any other time.

You mention bringing the other family members over as accomplices, but she wouldn't need accomplices if she and Genji were the only servants on the island at a given time. Is her hatred for the other adults so strong that she needed to involve their kids just so that they'd die too?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Definitely, Natsuhi did enough to make Yasu hate her a lot. And Yasu clearly had a motive to write a story where she took revenge against Natsuhi. But as you're saying yourself, that's a temporary emotion. It might explain a spur of the moment crime, but not an intricately planned one featuring several accomplices.

Ep 5 is not 'The Truth'. Ep 5 is a story based on what could have happened is Sayo's mindsetting of anger has remained crystallized like that... and it could. Kyrie wanted to kill Asumu for doing to her a lot less. There's plenty of people who can't get over their anger and end up committing murder.

The damage Natsuhi has inflicted to her isn't going to heal. It was possible for Sayo to keep on wanting revenge on her.

In Sayo's case her circumstances help her to move over. Kasumi, for example, never did, and decided to take it out on Ange.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Plus, we know Yasu actually did care a lot about all 4 of the cousins. She might forget that when blowing off steam, but you can't rewrite her entire history and have her suddenly ruin their lives and her own for an unrelated matter.

In particular, can you picture her forcing Maria to live through something like this? Or die because of it? We no longer have the excuse that it's all a witch ceremony and everyone's going to the Golden Land. Maria is only a pawn whose life will be ruined for the sake of Yasu's revenge. And for no reason, since Yasu could have killed Natsuhi at any other time.

Sorry but it's a canon fact that surely, till the night of October 3, likely also till the night of October 4, Sayo planned to commit a group suicide that would involve her cousins and Maria was planned to be a pawn in all this.

Sayo doesn't see it, at the moment, as ruining Maria's life. She's suicidal. Suicide is the best option she sees for herself and the others. Not mentioning that Maria's condition is horrible and her life is already ruined by her mother, which is why Maria is a willing accomplice. She wants to go to the Golden Land.

Now... Ep 5 is particularly kind with the cousins compared to the other episodes. They won't know murders are being committed. They'll think they're playing a prank and then are poisoned and die.

The only one who has it a bit worse is Battler, who however believes people aren't dying for real... He was also a willing accomplice because he was disgusted by what Krauss and Natsuhi were doing... and that (it's written in Ep 1) since he has been absent for 6 years and in the past had little to no connections with Natsuhi and Krauss, has no fond feelings for them.
PieceSayo might have not calculated he would feel pity for Natsuhi though and assume he would continue to see her being punished.

Ep 5's plan is meant to end like all the other plans. Everyone dies. Before though, Sayo'll have her revenge with Natsuhi. So yes, there's still the Golden Land. It won't end with the revenge. In Ep 5 Krauss got killed and so the cousins (minus Battler) and Rosa.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

You mention bringing the other family members over as accomplices, but she wouldn't need accomplices if she and Genji were the only servants on the island at a given time. Is her hatred for the other adults so strong that she needed to involve their kids just so that they'd die too?

Sayo's mind setting is a bit complicate to explain... and... hum... I'm getting the feeling you haven't read Ep 8 manga version.
I can try to summarize it for you if that's the case but I would recommend reading it or at least the script Haguruma posted about 'Confession of the Golden Witch Part 1, 2 & 3' (they're special chapters in the Ep 8 manga), in which there are detailed explanations of the motive, the accomplices, the roles, the crimes of the adults and so on.
Just let me know if you need a summary.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

In particular, can you picture her forcing Maria to live through something like this? Or die because of it? We no longer have the excuse that it's all a witch ceremony and everyone's going to the Golden Land. Maria is only a pawn whose life will be ruined for the sake of Yasu's revenge. And for no reason, since Yasu could have killed Natsuhi at any other time.

And that is exactly one of the core points that EP5 was supposed to drive home (though it didn't really work if you didn't get who's the culprit).
Additionally to the many things that jjblue already mentioned, think about what you just wrote yourself and consider why EP5 is such an important hint towards the culprit motive when considering that this is a game "lacking love". It doesn't only lack love for the characters, but the culprit is lacking love. EP5 Sayo is one who has actually given up on love and is just living for revenge. This is an important piece of advice, because many people and characters so far assumed that Beatrice's murders happened out of pure revenge. Yet why does this game change so much when it really IS just about revenge?

[turlingdrome]

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

.Well, I'm not sure, but I think that they planned to do a crime in the island from the begining and while Battler was a necesity Ange wasn't.
Battler was necesary to their plans because Beatrice payed her accomplices beforehand to make a "surprise return party" to Battler and the certain accomplices are Kyrie, Rudolf, Nanjo and Kumasawa, while the obviously possible, but not completly sure are Genji (I'm 99.9999999% sure) , Natsuhi, Krauss and Gohda.

I was going to reply sooner, but I thought my answer would not be satisfactory at the time. Anyway. Do not stop thinking, since I still want you to enjoy your journey, I will give you some hints. EP4 gives the suggestion that, at the very least, the Battler in EP4 was an imposter. Try to think about what might happen if they had brought Ange.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

My solution summary of the solution of the fourth gameboard:

First twilight, nobody died, they were just lying. Remember that Gohda and Kumasawa aren't as loyal as Genji and they aren't willing to help a killing for money, so they can only contribute if they think the murders are false.

Second twilight, George and Jessica were headshooted, Jessica was tricked to call Battler before showing the gun.

In between, Beatrice and Genji kills for real the sacrifices for the first twilight, this time is two gun armed men against unarmed persons so they could pull it off easily.

Fourth twilight, Kanon persona is killed.

Don't remember the order of the twilights, but they are being killed one by one by Beatrice and Genji, Kyrie obviously suspected the "murder game" so while she was tricking Battler about magic being real she also gave him some hints. Shanon shooted herself and made the gun fly away using a rock.

At last, Battler dies in the explosion of the island.

For the second twilight, not everything is as it seems. Look at the state of the bodies between Jessica and George. Widen your view to the whole gameboard. The magic scenes do quite a bit of misdirection here.

Please do not take my vague answering as spiteful, I just have so much fun figuring Umineko out that I want to share that with others. For that reason, all I can give you is a small nudge

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

That's MetaBeatrice's goal. When Battler had that discussion with Virgilia he was talking about MetaBeatrice.

Ep 5 is written by Lambda. Lambda has different goal and therefore writes a game without love. So she write PieceSayo with a different yet possible goal.

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

I was going to reply sooner, but I thought my answer would not be satisfactory at the time. Anyway. Do not stop thinking, since I still want you to enjoy your journey, I will give you some hints. EP4 gives the suggestion that, at the very least, the Battler in EP4 was an imposter. Try to think about what might happen if they had brought Ange.

No, that Battler isn't an imposter. He's still Kinzo's grandchild and the Battler who went on Rokkenjima in the past. Battler though is not Asumu's son, but Rudolf's and Kyrie's son.
And MetaBattler, having lost the memories of PrimeBattler, in a way it's not him.
And Tohya, who's writing Ep 4, is unsure if he's Battler or not and is rejecting that identity.

Ep 4 played on those facts.

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

For the second twilight, not everything is as it seems. Look at the state of the bodies between Jessica and George. Widen your view to the whole gameboard. The magic scenes do quite a bit of misdirection here.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but we got official confirmation that in Ep 4 second twilight George and Jessica were shoot and that Jessica, before being shot, was tricked into calling Battler and reading a script on the phone, before Kanon shoot her.

[RandomUser]

Originally Posted by uberzaki

i was going to reply sooner, but i thought my answer would not be satisfactory at the time. Anyway. Do not stop thinking, since i still want you to enjoy your journey, i will give you some hints. Ep4 gives the suggestion that, at the very least, the battler in ep4 was an imposter. Try to think about what might happen if they had brought ange.


For the second twilight, not everything is as it seems. Look at the state of the bodies between jessica and george. Widen your view to the whole gameboard. The magic scenes do quite a bit of misdirection here.

Please do not take my vague answering as spiteful, i just have so much fun figuring umineko out that i want to share that with others. For that reason, all i can give you is a small nudge

I thought that Battler was the real one, because Tohya claims to have the same memories and Ange recognized him as an old version of Battler, I only thought that Kyrie didn't bring Ange to the island because she knew that a lot of people were going to die.

Now in the fourth gameboard, I don't know where I am mistaken, I think that Jessica was just lying to Battler to continue this "lying to Battler game" and after she finished her job she was shoot or her head smashed until her head was half destroyed.
My answer for this game is that everybody were lying to Battler (that's some nice family)

[turlingdrome]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

That's MetaBeatrice's goal. When Battler had that discussion with Virgilia he was talking about MetaBeatrice.

Ep 5 is written by Lambda. Lambda has different goal and therefore writes a game without love. So she write PieceSayo with a different yet possible goal.

Well, I think it's pretty clear even in context that the line's talking about a Gameboard motive, but I won't press the point.


More importantly, it sounds like you're saying Battler was in on the murders, and that having Natsuhi be "exposed" as the culprit was part of Beatrice's plan. In that case, no one will actually suspect that a witch committed the murders, least of all Battler, and Battler will even know who the most likely culprit is.

One of the few things we supposedly know about the Golden Land is that you can't get there unless everyone (or at least Battler, it takes 2 people to create a world) believes. But no one's gonna believe in the Golden Land after EP5.

Clearly, this is no trivial matter. Beatrice goes to extreme lengths in EP1-4 to get Battler to believe in the witch, but now she doesn't care if anyone believes, except maybe Maria. Actually, is it even possible that Maria thought murders actually happened and were real?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Well, I think it's pretty clear even in context that the line's talking about a Gameboard motive, but I won't press the point.

Battler was trying to understand MetaBeatrice. He's looking at the gamoboards and trying to go through her moves. It's MetaBeatrice the one he promised to kill. He's starting to view the people on the gameboard as pieces who obey to the gamemaster or the player.

Of course, understanding MetaBeatrice's motive, is strongly tied to understanding PieceBeatrice's motive... in the first 4 games.

With Ep 5 things change as PieceBeatrice is clearly just a 'fantasy layer' used to cover both Natsuhi and Sayo's actions and not just Sayo's.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

More importantly, it sounds like you're saying Battler was in on the murders, and that having Natsuhi be "exposed" as the culprit was part of Beatrice's plan. In that case, no one will actually suspect that a witch committed the murders, least of all Battler, and Battler will even know who the most likely culprit is.

No.
Battler isn't in on the murders.
I thought you know since it has all been confirmed by now but Ep 5's plot works as following.

The 5th game was a game in which the GM, Lambdadelta made the culprit do things 'that they would not do even though not being unable to do them'.
That was to bribe the piece called Battler.
Originally, towards the Beato who's goal it was to make me solve her riddle, 'bribing me and making me an accomplicee' was never an option.
She could but she would not.
By making her opponent into a pawn of her own there was no necessity for the epitaph or the witch's letter so it didn't arrive
The intentions as a culprit and not as a witch were prioritized and so even after solving the epitaph the murders wouldn't stop
In it's place the plan to take revenge against aunt Natsuhi and kill the whole household was accomplished with total indifference.
It is hard to think that Battler, who has no interest in money, would be bribed into deceiving his aunt Natsuhi but an agreement like 'Battler taking part in a fake-murder scheme, pretending to be the wirepuller, to make Natsuhi confess to hiding Kinzo's death' for that to happen between the culprit and the adults, having them make Battler into a pawn of theirs, is not impossible

The bit above was translated by Haguruma.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

One of the few things we supposedly know about the Golden Land is that you can't get there unless everyone (or at least Battler, it takes 2 people to create a world) believes. But no one's gonna believe in the Golden Land after EP5.

Clearly, this is no trivial matter. Beatrice goes to extreme lengths in EP1-4 to get Battler to believe in the witch, but now she doesn't care if anyone believes, except maybe Maria. Actually, is it even possible that Maria thought murders actually happened and were real?

Beatrice's goal was never to make Battler believe in the witch. It becomes clear in Ep 3 when Battler was about to sign he believed in the witch and, before Ange managed to show up, Beatrice and Virgilia worked to make him have second thoughts about signing.

The Golden Land at which Battler and the others are supposed to arrive is also clearly stated as 'the land of death'. There are hints for this right in Ep 1.

Beatrice however calls also as such her fantasy world.

MetaBeatrice and Co are nothing else but wandering souls... who for a reason or another couldn't move in the land of death.

You'll see this sort of them in countless of Japanese stories.

Differently from the western beliefs in Japan's not so easy for a soul to reach the land of death. It can get lost, get stuck somewhere, even ends up in hell when it was supposed to go in heaven.

In Ep4 we see Maria and Beatrice in a 'golden land' but that's a fake one. Maria will manage to move in the right place after Ange will hand her Sakutarou.

It's a bit complicate as the beliefs involved here are pretty different from the western ones so while Japanese fans have no problems grasping it, western fans will have more problems.

[turlingdrome]

Do we have a source for that quote? Sorry, I've missed out on most of the omake and later interviews.

Going by the translation given there though, the key point to me seems to be the "is not impossible" at the end. What he's describing there might be possible, but certainly not in the context of EP5.

1. Do you really think it's in-character for Battler to support letting Natsuhi think her husband and daughter had been brutally murdered, just to teach her a lesson for something that happened two decades ago? Or is it to get back at her for hiding Kinzo's death to protect Krauss? If it's the latter, why aren't all the servants getting punished too, willing accomplices that they are?

2. Natsuhi obviously hid Kinzo's death to protect her husband and the Ushiromiya family's good name, something that actually benefits everyone on the island in the long run. Why the heck is she suffering the worst consequences when everything that happened is Krauss's fault?

3. The servants can provide evidence that Kinzo was dead, and that includes Yasu. So obviously, this isn't a scheme to get Natsuhi to admit to anything, but purely to cause her pain and anguish.

4. What about the battle in Kinzo's study? If Battler hadn't saved Natsuhi, she would've been cornered right there. Okay, maybe Battler had a change of heart, but then why didn't he put his cards on the table and tell her that her family wasn't dead? Are we supposed to believe he saved her only to prolong her suffering, when the truth of Kinzo's death was bound to come out sooner or later?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Do we have a source for that quote? Sorry, I've missed out on most of the omake and later interviews.

Going by the translation given there though, the key point to me seems to be the "is not impossible" at the end. What he's describing there might be possible, but certainly not in the context of EP5.

Ep 8 Chap 20. All the solutions given by the manga are confirmed to be canon by Ryukishi. Somewhere in the forum there's the interview that confirmed it as it was specifically asked to him.
In short, it's not a 'possible' solution. It is the solution Ryukishi gave specifically for Ep 5.

So discussing there's really not much to speculate anymore.

We can like it or hate it but that's how Ep 5 went for Ryukishi.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

1. Do you really think it's in-character for Battler to support letting Natsuhi think her husband and daughter had been brutally murdered, just to teach her a lesson for something that happened two decades ago? Or is it to get back at her for hiding Kinzo's death to protect Krauss? If it's the latter, why aren't all the servants getting punished too, willing accomplices that they are?

It doesn't really matter what I think. This is the official solution. My opinion won't change this. Battler is Ryukishi's character, he decides what's in character for him.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

2. Natsuhi obviously hid Kinzo's death to protect her husband and the Ushiromiya family's good name, something that actually benefits everyone on the island in the long run. Why the heck is she suffering the worst consequences when everything that happened is Krauss's fault?

You're missing a rather big point.
As explained in Ep 1 if the siblings don't get a lot of money before March they'll all be bankrupted.
What Krauss did was to take advantage of Kinzo's money to invest it in his own business, which actually aren't having success so far, ergo he couldn't return the money he stole.
It's a crime, as it's said in Ep 1.
Ence he didn't want Kinzo to be declared dead because the money he stole to Kinzo, once Kinzo is declared dead, would become part of the inheritance, and it would turn out he stole it to the siblings.
Krauss is keeping on investing Kinzo's money abusively, the money the siblings should have already inherited, further reducing the inheritance. If he keeps this up there will be nothing for the to inherit.
The siblings need the inheritance to pay their debts.
Krauss first stole from Kinzo and then from them.

Natsuhi is helping Krauss to commit a crime that's actually damaging them... and she's doing so with a great look of righteousness, claiming it's shameful how the siblings are interested in money... they money Krauss and Natsuhi are basically stealing.

As if this wasn't bad enough 20 years before Natsuhi murdered a woman and attempted to murder an infant who remained crippled for life.

Natsuhi's and Krauss's behaviour is quite disgusting, not mentioning criminal.

It is condemning the siblings to get bankrupted, is stealing money from them, it's not insuring that they'll get the inheritance, it's not insuring that the honour of the family will be saved.

Ep 5 though made pretty clear that, through the plan, Battler started having second thoughts and, very likely, after Natsuhi confessed being responsible for the death of the baby, he stopped cooperating.

The only ones who've chances to benefit from Natsuhi's and Krauss' plans are Natsuhi and Krauss. If they're lucky. If Krauss continues to mess up in his business, not even them will benefit from it.
Also, the plan to hide Kinzo's death and postpone the division of the inheritance is Natsuhi's. If Krauss was the first who started stealing, Natsuhi basically helped him into continuing it. She's guilty as well... but she's also an easiest target to deal for the siblings that Krauss.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

3. The servants can provide evidence that Kinzo was dead, and that includes Yasu. So obviously, this isn't a scheme to get Natsuhi to admit to anything, but purely to cause her pain and anguish.

First, the only way for the servants to provide evidence would be to bring Kinzo's body, otherwise it'll be just the servants' words against Natsuhi's and Krauss'.

Second, if the servants were to testify, it would turn out they were involved.

Third, if the siblings go for a trial, not only the Ushiromiya's name will be covered in mud, but they'll lose time. As said before they'll need money before March. They can't wait for a trial.

Forth, Sayo obviously wants Natsuhi to suffer in Ep 5. She'll be all for a scheme that'll cause her pain.

Fifth, all the siblings were truly interested was into getting the money, or the inheritance as soon as possible. Krauss and Natsuhi did all they can to stop them from getting it, we see it in all the episodes. Even in Ep 7 Teaparty Krauss refuses to split the gold with his siblings. Really, hurting Natsuhi and Krauss wasn't the main goal for the siblings... but I guess they won't mind considering it an added bonus. They hate Krauss who bullied them through... basically all their life and is still doing it and Natsuhi, supporting Krauss, ended up not getting any love either.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

4. What about the battle in Kinzo's study? If Battler hadn't saved Natsuhi, she would've been cornered right there. Okay, maybe Battler had a change of heart, but then why didn't he put his cards on the table and tell her that her family wasn't dead? Are we supposed to believe he saved her only to prolong her suffering, when the truth of Kinzo's death was bound to come out sooner or later?

How can the truth of Kinzo's death come out? You've to find the body to declare him dead and, so far, in Ep 5, we don't know were it is. Sayo knows but it's not interested in revealing it.

Even if the servants were to claim he's dead... if the police doesn't find the body you'll need 7 years to declare him dead. When Rokkenjima blew up and everyone was assumed to be dead Eva still had to wait 7 years to get the inheritance, insurance policies, whatever.

Now... it'll be very nice if Battler were to confess... but why isn't Natsuhi confessing either? There's a culprit going on killing people... a culprit who killed her own daughter and kidnapped her husband... this culprit might kill other people... and she's busy muddling waters by keeping up the illusion of Kinzo being alive?
She was never blackmailed into keeping secret the fact that Kinzo died 2 years ago. She could have told the truth. Instead she doesn't.
Battler helped her in the study... but Natsuhi isn't going to help his family, saving it from being bankrupted.

[turlingdrome]

Wow, feel like an idiot. I heard about the answers in the manga EP8, but assumed they were only in the chapters titled "confession", and didn't read much beyond that. Just checked up on that section, and it's beautiful. But it's a great example of Ryuukishi trying to get himself underestimated, something he's benefitted from ever since Higurashi.

Ryuukishi repeatedly warns us about simply believing information released later on, instead of using our own reasoning to process what we already have. Someone with a viewpoint like that would never release his final answer publicly, though he may release "a true answer", an answer that works completely given a certain limited rule set, an answer that affects how people act and is therefore no more or less real than Beatrice. Such an answer might be satisfying for casual readers, like a hardcore version of "the magic toxin" to explain why fantasy creatures never get witnessed. But it isn't the solution he wants us to find on our own. What would be the point, if the answer itself is meaningless unless you find it on your own?

The point of all Umineko is that the answer's only an answer if you can reach it before having someone tell you.

The fact that people are taking the "I don't like it, but it's canon" position suggests that they don't have as much confidence in Ryuukishi as he'd want them to. Given what Ryuukishi's said, I think he'd rather have people say "I don't like it, so it can't be true. There must be a way around it".


And in this case, I think I can prove it. Look at the part right after the lines you quoted, mentioning the cards with the seasons. Can you see how that part might disprove the rest of Erika's theory, or am I just imagining it?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

1. Do you really think it's in-character for Battler to support letting Natsuhi think her husband and daughter had been brutally murdered, just to teach her a lesson for something that happened two decades ago?

Again adding to what jjblue already said, you are also forgetting that we are talking about a child. Though 18, Battler is still very much in the grasp of his family. He depends on their money and their support, since he is basically homeless and has (going by his age) yet to graduate high school. He is also, while portrayed to be a bit of a wild kid, shown to be very fond of family values, so he would likely be convinced by his parents to aid them, if necessary by psychological force.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

But it's a great example of Ryuukishi trying to get himself underestimated, something he's benefitted from ever since Higurashi.

Ryuukishi repeatedly warns us about simply believing information released later on, instead of using our own reasoning to process what we already have.

When did he warn us about that?
Umineko repeatedly states that "The truth of the future always wins against the truth of the past".

I think this is more of an example of how Ryukishi shoveled his own grave by grooming a fanbase of doubters so insistent that even his Word of God cannot win anymore. Basically he created a coven of witches who are very prone to using the Golden Truth

Given what Ryuukishi's said, I think he'd rather have people say "I don't like it, so it can't be true. There must be a way around it".

To an extent you are right. But you are not taking the very last message to heart, "using true magic is about looking at the truth, accepting it and yet not have your own beliefes crushed by them".
What he wants people to say is, "I don't like it. It might be true, but that doesn't mean it has to be my way to see the story."

And in this case, I think I can prove it. Look at the part right after the lines you quoted, mentioning the cards with the seasons. Can you see how that part might disprove the rest of Erika's theory, or am I just imagining it?

I am 100% certain you are imagining it. But please, I wanna know what you believe to have found.

[turlingdrome]

Sorry, first want to comment on jjblue1. Okay, you win that point, since Battler could probably be tricked into thinking what you said. Though I think Battler's much smarter than we give him credit for; most of his stupidity comes from him always wanting to believe the best of people. Remember, in EP1, he's the one who came to Natsuhi's defense unprompted, even though the only solution that left her innocent was a far-fetched one and ultimately untrue. That such a person might choose to deliberately cause her pain without seeing any actual evidence is out of character, plain and simple.


However, I want to speak up in Natsuhi's defense. Your account of her actions is a clear case of "without love, it cannot be seen". At the time Kinzo died, all of Krauss's money was in assets that would have been worth a lot eventually, but were near worthless then. If Kinzo's death had been discovered, Krauss would go to jail, and all those investments would have to be sold off quickly (which means for much less) and while their value is still next to nothing. Krauss would be bankrupt and the shares of the other siblings would be a tiny fraction of what they were originally owed, if there was even anything left for them at all. And because Krauss's reputation has been shot as dead as it's possible to be, they can't expect him ever to pay them back.

At that time, the siblings hadn't yet hit their money crisis. The quick payment of money wouldn't help them in the least. The only result is that their shares would shrink drastically. Even if the siblings knew about Kinzo's death, they would have chosen to hide it until Krauss regained his losses. Though after that, they might easily blackmail him into destitution. In fact, that's exactly what we see in the final family conference. No one has taken actual legal action against Krauss, choosing instead to strike a private deal with legal action as a last resort.

As for the Ushiromiya family honor, I'm not just talking about Krauss's reputation. I mean they're gonna have to sell off Rokkenjima, one of the major places that Krauss has invested his resort money. Of course, as Umineko reminds us, living on an island is really inconvenient. Kinzo only liked it because it was his own personal castle, tailor made for him. But to anyone else, it would be the castle of a crazy old man into black magic with an idiot son. Can't be used as a resort yet, since the economy couldn't support it. So it'd be sold off for only a fraction of its value to the Ushiromiya family. Which means the gold, if it existed, would be gone. Which means that Yasu wouldn't be able to wait for Battler there, something so important to her that she waited six years.

Krauss is in jail and has no assets to leave for his family. Natsuhi has no work experience, is getting on in years, is a woman in Japan in the 80s, has a very irritable personality in the best of times, and is suffering severe depression. To make ends meet, Jessica will have to drop out of school and get a minimum wage job. Not much chance of her getting a sweet deal arranged marriage now, and she's a girl with no experience looking for work in Japan. If the story of Krauss's screw up went public (he lost a freaking private island in a dramatic manner), then Jessica and Natsuhi will constantly be bumping into people who know how much of a loser and a crook Krauss was.

Is Ryuukishi trying to say that Natsuhi was justified or made the right choice? Absolutely not. This is the Ryuukishi of Higurashi, whose major theme was "when you're in trouble, talk it over with your friends and family". Krauss's actions are despicable of course, but the biggest crime in the Ushiromiya family is that they didn't trust each other. Remove the distrust between them, and all of their problems could be solved, without having to reach into Kinzo's pockets yet again. Natsuhi and Jessica do not deserve to suffer for Krauss's crimes.


As for Erika's blue theory in EP5 (and that whole section in the manga describing EP5 is a theory Erika makes that Battler doesn't confirm or deny), don't want to be obnoxious about it, but does no one else see a problem with her explanation of the seasons trick?

The Autumn card?! This is easily done by preparing and hiding all 4 cards beforehand...and then guiding her to a place to look depending on her answer. Of course it is also enough if X, who was the only one who ever heard the answer directly from Natsuhi, placed the Autumn card.

[Mali]

The problem? I'm guessing it.
Why should a easy trick flustered Natsuhi so much after Sayo/Battler bragged about that she/he will prove it? I think there's an another reason since Natsuhi isn't surprised that he knew ther's a card in the clock. I can imagine that something other than "autumn"could be on the card. Right?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Sorry, first want to comment on jjblue1. Okay, you win that point, since Battler could probably be tricked into thinking what you said. Though I think Battler's much smarter than we give him credit for; most of his stupidity comes from him always wanting to believe the best of people. Remember, in EP1, he's the one who came to Natsuhi's defense unprompted, even though the only solution that left her innocent was a far-fetched one and ultimately untrue. That such a person might choose to deliberately cause her pain without seeing any actual evidence is out of character, plain and simple.

Battler is smarter than many gave him credit for, yes.

But the fact that he's prone to believe in people can be turned into a weakness againt him, that someone he trust and that's cunning as Kyrie can use to persuade him to play along.

Remember that although Battler sided with Maria when her mother started abusing her, ultimately he let Rosa and George persuade him that Rosa was right in beating her up.

Remember that when Natsuhi kicked out from the study the servants and MARIA he knew that if they weren't criminals they were going to be left in the hands of the culprit but let them go.

Remember that in Ep 4 he completely swallowed the story of Kinzo killing six people and causing the surviving ones to fall into trap holes in the floor.

Battler is nice but can be tricked by someone in whom he believes.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

However, I want to speak up in Natsuhi's defense. Your account of her actions is a clear case of "without love, it cannot be seen". At the time Kinzo died, all of Krauss's money was in assets that would have been worth a lot eventually, but were near worthless then. If Kinzo's death had been discovered, Krauss would go to jail, and all those investments would have to be sold off quickly (which means for much less) and while their value is still next to nothing. Krauss would be bankrupt and the shares of the other siblings would be a tiny fraction of what they were originally owed, if there was even anything left for them at all. And because Krauss's reputation has been shot as dead as it's possible to be, they can't expect him ever to pay them back.

Sorry but no, it's not a case of "without love, it cannot be seen".
It's a fact that Natsuhi loved her family and did all she could to protect them. Them meaning Jessica and Krauss of course, as she doesn't care about the siblings (especially Eva as the two can't stand each other).
I'm also sure she didn't mean for things to drag for so long, Krauss told her only 6 months would be enough and if it were 6 months they would manage to declare him dead before the next family conference so that the siblings wouldn't even notice.

But this doesn't change that what Krauss did was a crime for which he deserved to go to jail (not even an attempted or planned one, it was a crime), that Natsuhi became his willing accomplice and that the two of them committed another crime hiding Kinzo's death so they could continue to take advantage of his fortune and kept on doing so even when the siblings risked going bankrupted.

They have no insurance Krauss' business would be successful, actually Krauss has a LONG list of failures, that's why he stole Kinzo's money, because no one wants to lend him money any longer (Moon tourism? Prior to 1984? How believable is that?) and despite claiming he would have solved everything in 6 months, it's 2 years and he hasn't solved anything yet.

The siblings can't wait any longer, they need the money and Krauss know very well, he probably know that they started needing it the year before but now the situation for them had gotten desperate.

And in all this not only Krauss doesn't plan to help them but he doesn't mean to give up of his title of family head or to give them a refunding for taking advantage of their money... and the same goes for Natsuhi.

Despite stealing Kinzo's money, they both blame the siblings for coming there to ask what should be legittimately theirs, a share of the inheritance.

Natsuhi means well... but only in regards to herself, Krauss and Jessica.
The siblings have all the rights to be furious with her and Krauss and disgusted with both.

Battler can feel sorry for them... but ultimately they're stealing from his family so that it'll be his family who'll go bankrupt, along with George's family and Rosa's family.

It'll be him who'll have to drop school, and Ange and Maria will probably change school and go into a more modest one. George, who's working for his father, will probably lose his job.

Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Eva and Rosa then will have to go searching for a low salary job as well.
And it won't be just them. As their business will fail all the people under them will also have to start applying for new jobs.

I'm sure Battler believes what's being done to Natsuhi is cruel... but he probably didn't think they would go this far, didn't think Natsuhi wouldn't crumble sooner... and he had to chose. Between siding with Krauss and Natsuhi, who're stealing money and hiding Kinzo's death or siding with his family, George's family and Maria's family along with the families of all the people who work under them... not mentioning we get hints that he wasn't happy with being involved but was practically dragged into.

As Haguruma said he's a child and now he is without his maternal grandparents' support. He can't really leave his house again as easily as he did as a child.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

Natsuhi and Jessica do not deserve to suffer for Krauss's crimes.

Jessica doesn't, yes. Natsuhi is, by then, a willing and scheming accomplice. She's the one who planned how to hide Kinzo's death. It's no more Krauss' crime, it's their crime.

Originally Posted by turlingdrome

As for Erika's blue theory in EP5 (and that whole section in the manga describing EP5 is a theory Erika makes that Battler doesn't confirm or deny), don't want to be obnoxious about it, but does no one else see a problem with her explanation of the seasons trick?

The Autumn card?! This is easily done by preparing and hiding all 4 cards beforehand...and then guiding her to a place to look depending on her answer. Of course it is also enough if X, who was the only one who ever heard the answer directly from Natsuhi, placed the Autumn card.

The key point is that only a servant could have placed them there as only a servant has a master key to get inside Natsuhi's room.

Remember that Ep 6 explained how, if Erika were to saw through a trick, the gamemaster (Lambda in this case) could switch to another as long as it didn't contraddict the red.

What Erika is doing is basically stopping Battler from switching (I'm not sure he could though, as he wasn't the gamemaster of Ep 5).

If you've a problem with 'X' instead, is because Erika is procrastinating in revealing who the culprit is, and calling conveniently X.

It's pretty clear by her reasoning and by the draws who X is... but she's purposely not telly it out loud as she meant to use it as a finishing blow. If you'll take the time to read all of Ep 8 you'll see Erika will tell X's name much later, in the best moment possible for her.

Battler indirectly confirms the theory as he can't free himself from it. He's desperate to go to Ange but doesn't deny it. As long as he doesn't deny that theory he can't get free. It's a dead give away that he can't deny the theory, if not in a tiny point... sadly though Erika was expecting him to try and deny that point... so that she could do the maximum damage by giving the correct explanation... but she got interrupted a moment before delivering the last blow.

Regardless we've gotten to a point in which is pretty clear Ryukishi isn't offering us an alternative theory. He doesn't need it or he could have just used the same duel he used in the VN.

He placed there that theory to tell us the solution of game 5 (and 6) as in the duel come up the solution of game 6 as well.

As Haguruma has said Ryukishi let you free to find your own golden truth (ep 8 explains also what's a golden truth so, before we'll get in a discussing about it as well, I recommend realing all of Ep 8) so you can find as many alternative theories as you want. Ryukishi will probably enjoy it.

That's his solution though. If you want to play with him you've to find the answer he had in mind. If you want to play on your own though, he let you free to make your own theories.

As long as you enjoy Umineko he's happy regardless.