(L+CR) Chihayafuru

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I think the contrast between Taichi and Tsutomu's reaction to their defeat is easy to understand. For starters, this is the second time Taichi ends up in second place. As Nishida stated in an earlier episode, second place hurts, placing second for the second time must hurt even more; especially somebody like Taichi who is more accustomed to being number one. Tsutomu, on the other hand, had never reached the end of a tournament before, that alone in itself is a tremendous achievement for a Karuta newbie like him. Furthermore, it's obvious he likes Kanade quite a bit (maybe even has a crush on her), so he was more easily able to put aside his disappointment and be happy for her.

The second difference between their situation is in the way they were defeated. Kanade was the stronger player and you could clearly see it on the mat: several cards on Tsutomu's side, only one on hers; it was so apparent Tsutomu himself obviously couldn't miss it either and he almost gave up before the match even ended as a result. It's easier to accept defeat if your opponent is stronger than you.

Yes. Really good points here, lots of attention to detail: I have a much stronger sense of the characters' individual qualities. Excellent analysis.

Originally Posted by Kanon

While Taichi eventually admitted Nishida had been slighty better than him after cooling his head off, the gap between them was most certainly not large, and the fact the match was decided by luck of the draw made it even less noticeable. It's not hard for me to put myself in Taichi's shoes and understand how he was misled into thinking Nishida won thanks to luck in the heat of the moment and harbored bitter feelings towards him for a little while due to it. In the end, what matters more than his spurt of the moment reaction is that he eventually realized on his own that he had been unfair to Nishida and that no hard feelings were left between the two. I'm sure this has taught Taichi a lot and that we'll never catch him reacting this way again.

So you're saying the loss is more painful since it was so close--in fact, the closer the loss, the more painful it is? That's a good point.

I don't think it's true that Taichi thinks Yusei "won thanks to luck in the heat of the moment," though. I posted about this already: by asking if Yusei knew what cards were out there, Taichi finds out he had the advantage of knowing "The Tail" was a single syllable card, and still was not able to convert. Telling Yusei that he won due to luck at this point is Taichi's way to excuse to himself his own failure to convert on this opportunity. Blaat asked whether it's reasonable to think Taichi could do this, given the card location and Yusei's defensive posture, and maybe it's not. But however that is, Taichi himself seems to think so--otherwise his question has no meaning, and all the work the animators do to work out the single syllable versus double syllable distinction is pointless.

I think Taichi's reaction is understandable. All the same--maybe I've been listening to the Team Taichi people too much--I guess I had higher expectations for him. I expected him to act with the same magnanimity and sensitivity the other team members abundantly display, and he didn't. He surprised me with that put-down, disappointed me in fact. So maybe the problem is my expectations. Could be!

I agree that there are no hard feelings left: I give a lot of credit to Yusei for coming out, and telling Taichi why he likes him, and that he wants to keep playing karuta with him (although running down Chihaya definitely lacks class). And Taichi definitely responds: if you watch the animation, you can see how Taichi turns his face toward Yusei, and how they walk off as buddies together. It's a terrific moment.

I'd compare that moment to the later one in the van, where Chihaya embraces the sleeping Taichi. It's another moment where team mates reach out to one another, and show care and concern for one another. I think Taichi is part of this. Still, I would just point out that Yusei and Chihaya initiate these moments, and Taichi doesn't. They come to him: he's by himself in the lobby, or asleep in the van. That could just be coincidence. And maybe I'm making too much of it. Could be!

Originally Posted by Kanon

Of course, that's just how *I* saw it.

Give yourself more credit. All interpretations are not equally valid just since they are necessarily told from a personal perspective. Some are better than others. Yours, for example, since here you marshal evidence, pay close attention to the individual characters' qualities, and on top of that, write logically and clearly to boot.

[lovinger]

Please let me know which is the better Engsub of this anime? Commie or HorribleSubs?

[Odd]

Originally Posted by lovinger

Please let me know which is the better Engsub of this anime? Commie or HorribleSubs?

Crunchy Roll isn't too bad.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I don't think it's true that Taichi thinks Yusei "won thanks to luck in the heat of the moment," though. I posted about this already: by asking if Yusei knew what cards were out there, Taichi finds out he had the advantage of knowing "The Tail" was a single syllable card, and still was not able to convert. Telling Yusei that he won due to luck at this point is Taichi's way to excuse to himself his own failure to convert on this opportunity. Blaat asked whether it's reasonable to think Taichi could do this, given the card location and Yusei's defensive posture, and maybe it's not. But however that is, Taichi himself seems to think so--otherwise his question has no meaning, and all the work the animators do to work out the single syllable versus double syllable distinction is pointless.

I think you've got it backwards. Knowing that "The tail" was one-syllable was a completely insignificant advantage, and everyone knew it.

But if Nishida'd known what cards were left, Taichi could have told himself they were at least equals. But he didn't - Taichi was the one with the better memory, the one who'd paid more attention to the game. But all his effort, all his talent meant nothing in the end. What he let escape was his real feeling: that Nishida won thanks to luck. It's only afterwards he faced a the fact that it wasn't all luck. That their respective strength had brought them to that end.

Taichi was looking for consolation, either of "I lost because he was better, it's normal", or of "I may have lost, but I was the better player". Futile, of course. No matter what Nishida answered, Taichi would still have felt bad about losing.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think you've got it backwards. Knowing that "The tail" was one-syllable was a completely insignificant advantage, and everyone knew it.

No, I don't think so. This is not how Taichi and Yusei play the last cards.

If the syllable advantage was truly insignificant, then the two should have played the standard "luck of the draw" situation, where both players simply defend their own card, and wait for whichever card to be read first. But that's not what happens.

Instead, Taichi works out that "The tail" can't be taken on the first syllable, and uses that knowledge to go on the attack. He says "Luck of the draw? / Screw that! / I'm not leaving this match / to luck!"

Yusei, for his part, realizes Taichi's strategy, and his thoughts while the last cards are being read are focused on the question of whether there is still another "The" card out there.

Neither player treats the first versus second syllable issue as if it were insignificant. Sorry, but that's just not indicated by the evidence of the players' behavior.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But if Nishida'd known what cards were left, Taichi could have told himself they were at least equals. But he didn't - Taichi was the one with the better memory, the one who'd paid more attention to the game. But all his effort, all his talent meant nothing in the end. What he let escape was his real feeling: that Nishida won thanks to luck. It's only afterwards he faced a the fact that it wasn't all luck. That their respective strength had brought them to that end.

So Taichi is basically saying that since you, Yusei, didn't know what I knew, you didn't win by skill, so you had to have won by luck. Ok, I think I see where you are coming from.

That's a good way of looking at the scene--I think I can go with that.

The match is supposed to dramatize a situation where Taichi has the advantage his whole style of play is dedicated at securing, and still fails. As you point out, it may be that it was virtually impossible for him to succeed. In this case, it would make the point to Taichi that in some situations he simply can't win using his strategy. Just as Chihaya has to learn than speed is not enough, so too Taichi has to learn that memory is not enough.

On the other hand, Taichi himself acts as if he has a chance to win. He is attaching Yusei's card, trying to take it, refusing to give up and let the match be decided by luck. As it turns out, he has the knowledge, but just does not have the hearing and reflexes and speed needed to convert the advantage into a victory.

I think the loss is so painful to Taichi just since he thinks he could have won, and just wasn't able to. If it was just luck, had they decided the last card by a coin flip, say, then he could shrug it off, as luck of the draw, as something that had nothing to do with him. But that's not how he acts. I don't think Taichi's behavior fits your argument.

Anyway, thanks for the debate. You make a good case.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

No, I don't think so. This is not how Taichi and Yusei play the last cards.

If the syllable advantage was truly insignificant, then the two should have played the standard "luck of the draw" situation, where both players simply defend their own card, and wait for whichever card to be read first. But that's not what happens.

Instead, Taichi works out that "The tail" can't be taken on the first syllable, and uses that knowledge to go on the attack. He says "Luck of the draw? / Screw that! / I'm not leaving this match / to luck!"

That's just anger and denial at a cruel fate. But at most, it only increases his chance a little bit. (Even 60/40 is wildly overestimated).

Yusei, for his part, realizes Taichi's strategy, and his thoughts while the last cards are being read are focused on the question of whether there is still another "The" card out there.

Neither player treats the first versus second syllable issue as if it were insignificant. Sorry, but that's just not indicated by the evidence of the players' behavior.

It's not insignificant in that Nishida can't take the card early. He can still defend it.

So Taichi is basically saying that since you, Yusei, didn't know what I knew, you didn't win by skill, so you had to have won by luck. Ok, I think I see where you are coming from.

That's a good way of looking at the scene--I think I can go with that.

The match is supposed to dramatize a situation where Taichi has the advantage his whole style of play is dedicated at securing, and still fails. As you point out, it may be that it was virtually impossible for him to succeed. In this case, it would make the point to Taichi that in some situations he simply can't win using his strategy. Just as Chihaya has to learn than speed is not enough, so too Taichi has to learn that memory is not enough.

Well, yeah. It's like a golfer with a great drive: it's not going to help him much once he's on the green. Once there are only two cards left on the field, Taichi's play style is all but useless. But so is everyone's. That's why that situation is called luck of the draw.

On the other hand, Taichi himself acts as if he has a chance to win. He is attaching Yusei's card, trying to take it, refusing to give up and let the match be decided by luck. As it turns out, he has the knowledge, but just does not have the hearing and reflexes and speed needed to convert the advantage into a victory.

He acts like he's desperate to win, doing everything he can, no matter how futile. I don't think Chihaya has the speed and hearing to win in that situation. For all we know, Shinobu doesn't. Sure, she took a card Chihaya defended, but that was also because Chihaya underestimated her. She could have defended more thoroughly. (But then, Shinobu wouldn't let it come to that.)

I think the loss is so painful to Taichi just since he thinks he could have won, and just wasn't able to. If it was just luck, had they decided the last card by a coin flip, say, then he could shrug it off, as luck of the draw, as something that had nothing to do with him. But that's not how he acts. I don't think Taichi's behavior fits your argument.

I think the fact it was luck makes it all the more painful. It really was close, he really had the skill to win, but he lost because of something outside his control. He feels he didn't deserve to lose, that it was unjust. He could "shrug it off", as you say, if all that was at stake was his ego. But it wasn't: there was also his desire to catch up with Chihaya, and his dream of surpassing Arata, All his years of unrequited love lead him to that. Sure, it's not over. But it's still a setback. He's gotta feel like Sisyphus, pushing a boulder uphill, only for the Gods to make it slip from his hands at the last moment.

[Blaat]

What we're missing in this entire debate is knowing whether or not Taichi one syllable advantage is significant enough to win "luck of the draw" situation and unless a karuta prof is going to post here (never going to happen) or if one of us is going to ask this question on a Japanese karuta forum (never going to happen due to the huge language barrier) this debate we'll be going in circles.
The only thing we do know is that going on the offence during "luck of the draw" is not a common tactic. Retro, the newbies and Nishida's reaction confirms this.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I think the loss is so painful to Taichi just since he thinks he could have won, and just wasn't able to. If it was just luck, had they decided the last card by a coin flip, say, then he could shrug it off, as luck of the draw, as something that had nothing to do with him. But that's not how he acts. I don't think Taichi's behavior fits your argument.

I don't think a "luck of the draw" is something you can shrug off (unless it's a training match) as Retro-kun said it best "But still... After all they have been through... the winner will be determined by luck? They worked so hard to get here"
And this is why Taichi goes on the offence, he want to create something out of his one syllable advantage (which is basically nothing) he doesn't want to lose by luck because after working so hard losing by luck will hurt the most.

And while at the end of the episode Taichi doesn't believe he lost by luck, he wasn't talking about the luck of the draw situation: "It's my fault for not winning before it got to that point"
Let's be honest here he's right, if Taichi was a better player than Nishida then Taichi would have won by 2 or more cards but what Taichi forgets (or doesn't want to think about) is that the opposite is also true: if Nishida was the better player then Taichi would have lost by 2 or more cards. So basically he didn't lose by luck (because he wasn't better than his opponent) but at the same time he did lose by luck (he wasn't worse than his opponent so the winner had to be decided by luck of the draw) but telling yourself the former is true is a lot easier than the latter.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

I think the show itself made it plenty obvious that going on the offense during "the luck of the draw" is more or less completely futile. That Taichi would even try it speaks volumes for his character imo.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I think the loss is so painful to Taichi just since he thinks he could have won, and just wasn't able to. If it was just luck, had they decided the last card by a coin flip, say, then he could shrug it off, as luck of the draw, as something that had nothing to do with him. But that's not how he acts. I don't think Taichi's behavior fits your argument.

The final card was definitely down to luck. Taichi tries to fight that with his skill but it's still pretty impossible. The actual advantage goes to whoever's card was read first (in this case Nishida). All they have to do is defend that card and put their hand down. It's an easy win and they don't have to really think about the syllables of the card. Nishida only started worrying about what cards were left because of Taichi going on the offensive but in the end it wasn't going to help Taichi much (unless he could hear the card so fast that he could reach over and grab it before Nishida realizes not even counting the fact that Nishida is already defending his only card).


The reason why Taichi is so upset at the end is because he realizes while the last card was down to luck the game itself was not. If Taichi had played better to begin with then it would not have come down to luck of the draw and he would have won the game earlier.

[hyperborealis]

Good responses, everybody.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He acts like he's desperate to win, doing everything he can, no matter how futile.

This would be significant, if true: it would give us a Taichi so consumed by the desire to win that he ends up clutching at straws--he is if not irrational almost so.

Clearly, desire to win is not enough. We've argued about whether it's actually a negative factor. But as Undertaker pointed out earlier, Taichi's intensity does seem to reveal to Yusei what Taichi knows about the cards. Taichi can put Yusei down for not knowing what cards were left--but Yusei doesn't need to know, if he can just read the situation off the face of the opponent who does know. In the end, Taichi confuses Yusei about what cards are left. Still, Taichi doesn't need to feel as superior as he momentarily does about his knowledge of the cards in the locker room--Yusei has an excellent read on his opponent, and that also--as Sakura teaches us--is an important factor in karuta.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't think Chihaya has the speed and hearing to win in that situation. For all we know, Shinobu doesn't.

In this regard, it's interesting that Taichi's last thoughts before the final card read are about Chihaya, and what she would do, whether she would be able to hear the sound before the first syllable is read. I think that is what Taichi is going for, so he may think that Chihaya might actually be able to do it.

If so, then he's pinning his hopes on a different kind of luck, the different natural gifts each of us have just by being born as individuals. Here we can confidently say he can play karuta forever and not hear the cards as well as Chihaya. It's a little ironic that he is wishing for this, I think. In the end, he's putting his hope on luck rather than skill, which is a futile hope.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He could "shrug it off", as you say, if all that was at stake was his ego. But it wasn't: there was also his desire to catch up with Chihaya, and his dream of surpassing Arata, All his years of unrequited love lead him to that. Sure, it's not over. But it's still a setback. He's gotta feel like Sisyphus, pushing a boulder uphill, only for the Gods to make it slip from his hands at the last moment.

Nice explanation of just how much is at stake for Taichi, and consequently why losing is so painful.

Originally Posted by Blaat

The only thing we do know is that going on the offence during "luck of the draw" is not a common tactic. Retro, the newbies and Nishida's reaction confirms this.
I don't think a "luck of the draw" is something you can shrug off (unless it's a training match) as Retro-kun said it best "But still... After all they have been through... the winner will be determined by luck? They worked so hard to get here"
And this is why Taichi goes on the offence, he want to create something out of his one syllable advantage (which is basically nothing) he doesn't want to lose by luck because after working so hard losing by luck will hurt the most.

Good summary of the internal evidence re likelihood of taking the card, and nice gloss from Retro-kun how we viewers are to take the scene.

I think the fact that the standard response in this situation is to protect your own card is a good sign that taking the opponent's card is pretty unlikely. Just how unlikely given the particular circumstances we don't know enough about karuta to say.

Originally Posted by Blaat

So basically he didn't lose by luck (because he wasn't better than his opponent) but at the same time he did lose by luck (he wasn't worse than his opponent so the winner had to be decided by luck of the draw)

Blaat, you're making my head hurt

At this point I think however he thinks about it it just hurts.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

The actual advantage goes to whoever's card was (in this case Nishida).

There's no question Yusei had a huge advantage due to luck.

Had the situation been reversed, I wonder how Taichi would have felt. If he had won by luck, what would that have meant to all his effort and practice and so on? Would the victory have been empty?

In this respect, it's interesting to note that Yusei took the penultimate card (you see him putting the card away, so that's how you know he took it), so if there had not been the final luck-of-the-draw card, Taichi would have won. On the other hand, Yusei did take that penultimate card to force the 1 card standoff. You have to give him credit for putting himself into a situation where he can get lucky--and Taichi does come to accept that while thinking the match over in the lobby.

Thanks everyone for the excellent discussion. I learned a lot, and definitely have a better appreciation for how the scene develops and how we can understand it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Clearly, desire to win is not enough. We've argued about whether it's actually a negative factor. But as Undertaker pointed out earlier, Taichi's intensity does seem to reveal to Yusei what Taichi knows about the cards. Taichi can put Yusei down for not knowing what cards were left--but Yusei doesn't need to know, if he can just read the situation off the face of the opponent who does know. In the end, Taichi confuses Yusei about what cards are left. Still, Taichi doesn't need to feel as superior as he momentarily does about his knowledge of the cards in the locker room--Yusei has an excellent read on his opponent, and that also--as Sakura teaches us--is an important factor in karuta.

It's hard to say whether it was good or bad. For one thing, the situation overwhelmingly favored Nishida, so it looks like a non-issue either way.

For another... For Taichi to win, Nishida would need to make a mistake or choke at the moment of truth. Somehow. His knowledge or not of the card, whether by memory or by reading Taichi, never really mattered. Which left Taichi with two choices:
- play it cool and predictable, so Nishida would lower his guard, and hope that not only the dead "The" card would be read first (which did happen), but that Nishida would mistakenly sweep his own card. That smacks a bit too much of relying on luck, and I don't think Nishida would fall for it. Why would he? He just has to protect his card, which in this scheme Taichi isn't even attacking.
- do what he did, and pressure Nishida. Hope the pressure pushes him into a mistake, or that he gets a cramp or something at the critical moment. Sure, it didn't work, but it doesn't mean it was the worse approach to the problem.

Had the situation been reversed, I wonder how Taichi would have felt. If he had won by luck, what would that have meant to all his effort and practice and so on? Would the victory have been empty?

I don't think so, because, as I said earlier, it never was just about beating Nishida, let alone winning that one game. It was about advancing to A class and beyond that, to the Meijin title. He might not have felt great, but he'd have come to the same conclusion: that it wasn't just luck.

[Guardian Enzo]

The manga was nominated for the Tezuka Prize today. Richly deserved.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The manga was nominated for the Tezuka Prize today. Richly deserved.

Very nice! Even nicer if they would announce another 25 episodes because of this.

I know wishful thinking.

[Yume Hanabi]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

In this regard, it's interesting that Taichi's last thoughts before the final card read are about Chihaya, and what she would do, whether she would be able to hear the sound before the first syllable is read. I think that is what Taichi is going for, so he may think that Chihaya might actually be able to do it.

I was going to say that. While watching the episode, this gave me the impression that he, in a way, believed that Chihaya would have been able to take it. Whether he would have been right or not is up to debate, but I personally think that yes, it was possible.

I've played the Tales series version of karuta a bit with friends (so it's different than here, but...), and we're nowhere near the level of the characters here, but I can say that it is possible to snatch one's favored card under his or her very nose if you're determined enough. Situation was different since we played with several peolple and the cards were all scattered randomly on the floor, so it can't completely compare, but... iirc, a friend and I were focusing entirely on this one card I usually never failed to get after the first/second syllable (him because he wanted to take it as payback for me taking one of his favourite ones earlier, and me because I had the feeling he was going after it and didn't want to lose it). The card was closer to me than to him, but he still was quick enough to take it before me.

So yeah, luck was, obviously, a big factor, but reaction time is important too. If Nishida had been a little slower (for whatever reason), Taichi could have gotten the card. The chances were slim, of course, but I don't think it's entirely impossible.

[hyperborealis]

Brief comments on the cards featured in this week's episode:

Kana wins on 73, a simple and beautiful lyric, which I quote from the Peter McMillan translation:

How lovely the cherry blossoms
blooming high on the mountain.
May the mists in the foothills
not rise and block the view.

The author is Oe no Masafusa. Here's a portion of McMillan's brief bio: "from a famous lettered family, he was a child prodigy in Chinese studies. He was the favorite and confidant of retired Emperor Horikawa and a brilliant administrator." The card connects to Kana's last name, of course, but also perhaps a bit to her character, which, with a little imagination, rather resembles the poet's, if you think of her family's background in traditional arts, her own nature as something of a prodigy in classical poetry, and finally her notable business sense on behalf of the family store.

Thematically, perhaps the poem expresses a wish that her victory not draw up a barrier between herself and Tsutomu.

-----

The two cards that do get front-and-center presentation are of course the last cards in Taichi and Yusei's match. Taichi is defending the 77th, which is the "Swift waters" card, and Yusei is defending the third.

Here's the jlit.net translation of the latter waka:

On a night as long
As the long, drooping tail on
The copper pheasant
Dwelling in the steep mountains,
Am I, too, meant to sleep alone?

The 77th card is the first card Chihaya ever takes against Arata, and is the card Kana uses at the regional tournament to describe their relationship. So perhaps if Taichi were to win by taking this card, he might also be taking this future for himself. Such an interpretation is purely speculative, but it does at least speak to the ultimate stakes that Taichi is playing for.

But for Taichi to win against the luck of the draw, he would had to take Yusei's card. And however you want to read it Yusei's card is not a propitious one, at least as regards to Taichi's hopes regarding Chihaya. So on this superstitious prophetic level, it's just as well that Taichi doesn't win the match.

-------

Finally, the episode title "As the Years Pass" comes from the 84th waka. Here's the U. Virginia translation:

If I should live long,
Then perhaps the present days
May be dear to me,

Just as past time filled with grief
Comes quietly back in thought.

I think the title poem serves to suggest a consolation for Taichi against his loss to Yusei: in the future, the poem is saying, he will look back at this moment, which now hurts so much, and find it then, with the passage of the years, to be "dear." Time heals all, in other words.

[Kirarakim]

I think from a story perspective I can see why Taichi would not win on the swift waters card. It's too connected to Chihaya/Arata. Taichi needs to win on his own card.

And I like the idea of looking back at a painful moment in fondness.

Thanks for the poem translations, they really do add layers to the story & characters. The card Kana won on is especially beautiful.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The manga was nominated for the Tezuka Prize today. Richly deserved.

Now that's what I call bouncing back. The mangaka career could have died a few years back when she was accused and later admitted to have plagiarized the art of other manga, and now her new manga's nominated for Tezuka award (not to mention it's already won awards in the past). It's amazing how far she's come.

[Blaat]

It's Taichi Tuesday which means Chihayafuru, another excellent episode in which

Spoiler:

Harada sensei falls for Taichi.
Actually that wasn't the most interesting aspect of the episode, Taichi and Chihaya meeting with Arata was though along with Kana's cute outfit and we also got an insight on Chihaya's feeling (not surprising really ).

[fanty]

The weird artsy/melodramatic direction of this episode almost made me laugh.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The manga was nominated for the Tezuka Prize today. Richly deserved.

Awesome news.

Kanon, what manga did the mangaka plagiarize art from?

edit: Watched the episode and oh god. There seems to be no end to how much Taichi can grow. I realize that that also means he is a low low person in a way but man.