2011-01-10, 14:40 | Link #21441 | |
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Well, that's sort of the point of becoming an evil witch or a good witch. That decision is up to you. In addition, if the answer is revealed, and not-nice things indeed happened, then that'll be how the story was remembered. Going by Ange's reaction when she read Eva's diary, I don't think nice thing happened.
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2011-01-10, 15:22 | Link #21442 | |
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I have not seen such a theory nor do I believe that such a theory can be crafted given what we currently have. Hypothetical: Would the epitaph solution have been shown to us if no one had come close to solving it? I remember him saying in interviews that the full solution to the epitaph would be revealed. However, that was only after the taiwan theory was made.
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2011-01-10, 15:32 | Link #21443 | |||
The True Culprit
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Also, lots of people were guessing Shkanontrice by EP3 so like lol. Quote:
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Honestly, I may not agree with the story's aesop about keeping the catbox closed, but I'm able to realize that this conclusion was foreshadowed, so I'm able to be happy with it. The catbox is closed precisely so that the games can continue forever (Ryukishi seems pretty fond of the fact that people write forgeries irl).
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2011-01-10, 15:40 | Link #21444 | |||
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Indeed, but wouldn't it have been better if we had also been made to reach the same conclusion (i.e. the catbox should be kept closed) by reaching the truth? In my opinion, it'd have been much more meaningful had R07 been able to pull something like that.
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2011-01-10, 15:51 | Link #21445 | ||||||
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HOLD IT because you've pretty much ignored what I posted until now. This will be my third time saying this, but I'm not talking about the majority that believed in an answer to the Beatrice Mysteries... show me the majority that believed we would get an answer to Rokkenjima Prime. Quote:
My position is that I'm fine with Rokkenjima Prime never exposing the incident. This is not ANSWERS. The list you gave earlier were about the Beatrice Mysteries. I'd like this list answered too, although I'm not going to complain very much if I didn't get the answers in EP8. Quote:
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Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth. <-- Please, keep your intellectual violence to yourself. There is absolutely nothing to imply we were supposed to figure out what happened on Rokkenjima Prime, in addition to it being impossible. If you're talking about figuring out the mysteries? Well... HOLD IT I was never talking about the mysteries in my first post! And in fact, if you're talking about the mysteries, then I agree with you, we ARE supposed to discover those. I just love it when people argue against you while you agree with them. It's very indicative of some sort of hatred directed elsewhere and a very close minded attitude. Quote:
But you know, you're free to think this. However, spare us from your own personal theories, if we've already argued against them. I love how you turned this conversation to about whether he gave YOU answers or whether YOU are satisified. But, honestly, I started this post, which was not even directed at you, to talk about how the Rokkenjima Prime incident isn't one of the answers of the Mysteries he's told us to try and solve. I don't know why you had to argue with me, because your counter arguments are about something else entirely! Now let's all use bold and italics and blink text to pretend we are communicating. |
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2011-01-10, 16:20 | Link #21446 | |
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2011-01-10, 16:23 | Link #21447 | ||||||
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It would be a lot better if the public opinion believed innocent the innocents and guilty the guilty. Quote:
So how exactly can you tell that we were supposed to speculate only to the point of what kind of event happened and not on what caused it? This is completely unreasonable. Quote:
I gave it for granted because it seems a logical conclusion. Now I know that it isn't so for you. But can you prove that all those people that expected answers for Beatrice's mysteries didn't expect an answer for the Rokkenjima's prime incident as well? Maybe you're the odd one here, and not me. Quote:
If you think it would be okay to see them in an interview then I don't agree with you again. Quote:
As far as I know I was the only one that understood the actual extension of the Rokkenjima disaster. And when I explained why it couldn't be a bomb, I explained that it had to be a small nuclear bomb to do that kind of damage. Most people that believed it was a bomb, believed it was so because they didn't understand how big that "bomb" was. In fact I can argue that calling 900 tons of explosives packed together "a bomb" is technically incorrect. And I can still argue that given the fact of a 1km wide crater, assuming that it was done by explosive was not the most reasonable conclusion. Prove me wrong: Show me a human made explosion that created a crater as big as that, that wasn't caused by a nuclear device or a military test meant to simulate a nuclear explosion Quote:
I saw a lot of people agreeing with me.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-01-10 at 17:44. |
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2011-01-10, 16:25 | Link #21448 | ||
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Well, I made that comment while thinking about the comment he made in a interview. "This is a game between myself and the readers." I wonder if we would have received better answers if he felt most of his readers had solved it. Looking at the goats from episode 8, I don't think he felt many readers had reached the right conclusion. So he then decides to mock them? Maybe not the best decision there. Yeah. I'm glad we have your opinion which is equivalent to facts.
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2011-01-10, 16:26 | Link #21449 | |
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Keeping the catbox closed is evil, because it benefits those who did evil and clouds the reputation of those who did not in order to protect those who did.
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2011-01-10, 16:36 | Link #21450 | ||
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Beatrice's actions throughout the story have made me suspect for a long time that exposing the truth would cause people to treat a good and decent person as a heartless monster, or that the truth being revealed will cause an even greater evil to happen, or something like that.
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2011-01-10, 16:40 | Link #21451 | |
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2011-01-10, 16:47 | Link #21452 | |
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Wait, I'm okay with almost all the points you've made. But I don't think that Mulholland drive and Lost Highways actually have a completely plausible explanation. You can explain "some things", but you always find some pieces of the puzzle that do not match completely. And I think David Lynch himself admitted so. I consider David Lynch an author that doesn't really care about giving a perfect explanation of all the strange events that narrates, but as you said, he never have that pretense.
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2011-01-10, 17:13 | Link #21453 | ||
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But more to the point, I think I can advance the argument that it's always evil. If Battler, Ange, and Eva believed they were doing a greater good by concealing what they knew, they were simply incorrect (even if innocently so). There are only two ways to resolve the "cat box" situation as presented in the Rokkenjima Incident:
Any other solution resolves nothing, allows the goats to keep goating, and condemns both the innocent and guilty to an eternal purgatory where, as someone aptly put just a few posts ago, essentially allows them (or their memory) to be tormented endlessly. Everyone suffers. This includes, of course, any guilty parties (provided those parties did not escape, anyway) but also any innocents. You know the old expression, "better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished?" It's sort of that, except revealing the truth in no way assures that the guilty party goes free. Indeed, assuming the entire truth is discoverable (which, admittedly, is not a known quantity), the guilty party will be identified and "punished" in memory. "But they were protecting Ange!" Well, no they weren't; not knowing did irreparable harm to Ange (the adult Ange we see, at least, for whatever little we know of Ange-Prime may be different) psychologically. They may have believed Ange was better off not knowing, especially if the truth was difficult to handle, but ultimately it hurts her just as much and probably more not to know. Remember, the ol' goat squad can speculate on horrible things (your mother/father/brother are murderers!) just as much as they can soothe her mind. Ultimately, Ange is better off with the truth. If she'd know from the start she would have suffered at first, but she would not have developed a complex which complicated her future reasoning based in paranoia and survivor guilt. Concealment is, ultimately, a cowardly act. It's the act of a person who fears confronting evil and enduring temporary suffering in order to do the right thing for themselves, others, and the world in general. There's a reason that "harmless" lies can compound into something festering and inescapable. There's a reason some churches encourage confession even though they don't actually punish acts confessed to (it's fairly rare that, say, a priest would turn you in for a crime you admit to in confession, though you might be encouraged to give yourself up). Sometimes just telling the truth and realizing that someone knows it is cathartic unto itself. Oh, there's consequences and pain, but consequences are the medicine. Sometimes you swallow 'em. In the end you're dealing with the sin of a handful of people that is being spread around among everybody so it doesn't seem so bad. But in actuality, it's only making things worse. Everyone is equally guilty in the closed-off universe. To say "well, everyone's also innocent" misses the point that some people deserve to be innocent and some people deserve to be guilty. It was their own actions that put them there, and those actions are important to praise or condemn. Finally, consider some wicked mastermind who knew this sort of thing would happen, and set up exactly this sort of scenario to posthumously eliminate any chance of blame falling on him/herself while also tormenting his/her victims even beyond the grave. That's simply depraved. Could you side with such a person? He/she can exist in a closed world. In a world of truth, this villain is powerless, even if some unsavory things come up about the victims. Is that unfortunate? Yes, but at least they're being maligned for their own sins, not those of someone else trying to make them look bad. Truth is certainly not harmless, but it is the greatest good in just about any value system you could apply to Rokkenjima-Prime. Is there something, somewhere, that could be a greater good than this, such that concealing the truth is the only ethical and moral act? Yes. Can you think of one that would actually apply here? I didn't think so, and I doubt very much Ryukishi can think of one either. Of course, he need only do one thing to prove otherwise. Quote:
And honestly I thought Mulholland Drive was pretty straightforward.
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2011-01-10, 17:30 | Link #21454 | ||
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I re-read EPs 1-6 before EP8 was released, and at the very least, by EP5 the mood still was that reaching the truth was the proper thing to do. Of course, something that was explained further was that the method to solve this was important as well, and this was mainly shown in EP5 on how you're supposed to take on a mystery, in addition to try to understand the fantasy as part of solving the mystery. Moreover, we have the whole issue about trust between reader and writer having more emphasis than ever. And, by the end of EP5, Battler reached the truth - not merely ShKanontrice and what happened in the fictions, but what actually happened in Rokkenjima (this is supported by EP7 and EP8). Thus, I don't find it odd some readers expected to be able to find the core truth of the mystery. Fun enough, there was much "love" in this. Quote:
This is something I definitely didn't like in Chiru. At many points he had to rant, mock and sometimes even insult his fanbase. I know many of them/us criticise him (and criticism is not a bad thing), and many of them even bash what he's done, but they/we are still his fanbase (which is not even that big), and I believe he's the one who should have taken the high road and only answer those comments through delivering a good novel. Personally, I believe resorting to this was childish, and what he finally presented doesn't really back-up all the tantrum he threw in Chiru.
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2011-01-11, 01:13 | Link #21455 | ||||
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Ok, wait. Maybe I should redefine my terms. I'm still getting the feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying...
There's the Beatrice Mystery... which does not include "what" happened on Rokkenjima but *does* include the "why." This is the thing we've been trying to reach since way back in EP1 when 'Maria' told us to try to find 'the truth.' Then there's the What Happened on Rokkenjima Prime. This doesn't include the machinations of Beatrice, which includes stuff about the gold, the epitaph, the faking and the explosion. Those are all part of her mystery. This only includes things like Eva, Kyrie, Rudolf, Natsuhi or Rosa running around shooting each other. It also doesn't include the Mastermind if there is one. Basically it doesn't include the things that Beatrice planned because those are part of her mystery. But it does include the random stuff that happened. Quote:
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As for why I don't care about what happened that day; it's not that I don't care, but it is one of the central challenges and theme of this whole story. A great event occurred that destroyed information and, without knowing the specifics that day, we are given clues to the truth behind it. Our job was to reach in and find that truth. In the end the specifics of the day were not important, only the reason and cause. Imagine what Umineko would be like if he started off with what really happened... then Beatrice comes on and challenges you to find the truth. Quote:
However, I think he might give it to us in a shortened novel form, or a long TIPS-like posting. This Rei may be what he has in mind, since Rei is supposed to be things that take place after the main story conclues. Maybe this is why he left Erika alive and floating around... he could drag her out and have her explain to us what's going on, all the while insulting us. 8) Maybe he can do something with Will and Dlanor too. Quote:
Spoiler for An aside about Krauss...:
Therefore I don't see the need find some other source of the explosion. A carefully planned system of 900T of TNT can get the job done. In fact.. probably much less than 900T of TNT... Spoiler for Long, long discussion about Da Bomb:
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2011-01-11, 03:58 | Link #21458 | |||
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But I still argue that the nature and the extension of the Rokkenjima incident could only be reasoned using the 1998 perspective. There are really not enough hints in the Beatrice's mystery to reasonably conclude that such an event even happened. The last riddle of EP4 could be simply explained with a trap. Therefore this is something that isn't part of Beatrice's mysteries that Ryuukishi expected us to reason about. And he did left a lot of hints about that. There is also another thing that I would like to point out. So far I heard justifications about catboxes and how the truth can't be known. But there has to be an official explanation of what caused that explosion. And that explanation must be known to the public. And barring conspiracy theories that is probably the truth. I think that we, the readers, deserve to know at least that much. Quote:
Let me make an example. Suppose that an author decides to introduce a dinosaur in his story, a story set in our age. That's quite odd, isn't it? But I think it could work, if an explanation on how that dinosaur still exists after his species was supposedly extinct millions of years ago was provided. What really wouldn't work would be an author pulling a dinosaur in his story, without it being a central element of his story, and without any kind of explanation. There is just this dinosaur that passes by. Maybe it would work in a Mel Brooks movie but not in a serious one. This huge explosion is definitely a very odd event. You can't throw it like that without explaining how it happened. Quote:
the first is the fact that the incident wouldn't be an explosion but a landslide. and the victims wouldn't die in an explosion. This contradicts the EP6 TIPS that said that Erika died in an explosion. The second is the fact that the crater was several dozen meters deep. So something around 30-60m. That's about the height of a Manhattan skyscraper. A simple implosion cannot vaporize matter or throw it in the ocean. therefore to justify that depth you'd need to speculate that the tunnels were that high, or the sum of several tunnels one above the other can make that height. So what is originally explained as a single tunnel becomes the mines of Moria under Rokkenjima. Where such a thing was hinted? As for the explosions you showed me, all interesting stuff, but let me introduce you the largest man-made explosion crater in the U.S.A. (the wiki says it isn't the world's largest but I haven't found who beat that record. This is still reported as the world's largest on several sites.) 1280 feet = 390 m In other words if that story of the 900t is true then Ryuukishi introduced in his story a non nuclear explosion that created a crater that more than doubled the one in this nuclear test. And with less than 1 hundredth of the kilotons involved
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-01-11 at 04:26. |
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