The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Leo Keichi

Spoiler for Disappearance:

In Disappearance, Nagato creates another universe where Haruhi doesn't have any power. But I'm not sure Haruhi could get rid of the Data Integration Thought Entity. So the Entity could take over if it wanted actually. They don't do it cause all they're interested about is in observing how things unfold. But I'd rather have a Nagato controlled Universe than a Haruhi one.

Oh, Haruhi can.

In fact, she DID. In the very first novel.

Until Kyon reset everything with a kiss, Haruhi was in the process of building a new universe with her and Kyon, with everyone else left behind and possibly annihilated.

The Data thought entity is not Haruhi's equal, not even close. And if you think 4-dimensionally, Haruhi never lost her power, not really. She was just dormant.
The universe could survive without the DTE. But we have yet to see a universe where Haruhi doesn't exist.

[Ithekro]

Haruhi seems to be able to create something from nothing. Yuki's kind can only alter existing data...even Yuki could not create or destroy...only alter the universe.

[RandySyler]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Oh, Haruhi can.

In fact, she DID. In the very first novel.

Until Kyon reset everything with a kiss, Haruhi was in the process of building a new universe with her and Kyon, with everyone else left behind and possibly annihilated.

The Data thought entity is not Haruhi's equal, not even close. And if you think 4-dimensionally, Haruhi never lost her power, not really. She was just dormant.
The universe could survive without the DTE. But we have yet to see a universe where Haruhi doesn't exist.

I suppose if we can correlate Haruhi to God, then we could possibly make a relation of the DTE to Christian angels.

In Christianity, angels are pretty damn powerful, but cannot exist without God.

Now, let's say God doesn't know he/she is God, and the angels are tasked with making sure she doesn't and keeps the universe in check. This is the plot to Haruhi, no?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by RandySyler

I suppose if we can correlate Haruhi to God, then we could possibly make a relation of the DTE to Christian angels.

In Christianity, angels are pretty damn powerful, but cannot exist without God.

Now, let's say God doesn't know he/she is God, and the angels are tasked with making sure she doesn't and keeps the universe in check. This is the plot to Haruhi, no?

You are better off using a polytheistic religion as an example. There is no reason why there can't be another deity above Haruhi (the author), and another deity above that (The author's publisher). All we know is that Haruhi is the strongest being that the characters can detect.

The Data entities are not anyone's magical servant. They are just really powerful life forms. They are not angels, they have more free will than that.

[Guernsey]

I thopguht the Data Enititeis were cold and logical, I must reread the novels but the polytheism is a good idea for HAruhi. The whole monotheism mixing in with Haruhiverse makes thigns more complicated.

[Ithekro]

We have limited data on them since all knowledge of them is via Yuki or the observations of Kyon on the three known human-models.

Unless there is something more we get later. Either from the future or perhaps some rivals. Cause Mikuru(BIG) is still scared of Yuki.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

I thopguht the Data Enititeis were cold and logical, I must reread the novels but the polytheism is a good idea for HAruhi. The whole monotheism mixing in with Haruhiverse makes thigns more complicated.

We also know that the Data entities are not all-knowing as they have difficulty interacting with the Canopy Domain.
Both are energy life forms who are powerful and 4-dimensional, but have nothing else in common and as such is not able to communicate with one another in any meaningful way until the later novels.

[wistfulloner]

Has one ever noticed how ironic it is that Tsuruya and Mikuru are best friends? It is known that Tsuruya's family supports Itsuki's agency, which has a conflict in view with Mikuru's faction over Haruhi. Tsuruya would know about and share this friction, so wouldn't this make her prejudiced against Mikuru instead of making them friends?

[Ithekro]

Tsuruya is sort of the wild card in all this. She acts sort of like Haruhi, is friends with Mikuru, has ties with Itsuki, is curious about Yuki, and is known by Kyon. Also notice how friendly Haruhi got with Tsuruya and quickly.

Maybe it is nothing.

(Or you take the Abridged series version: Tsuruya: "I'm a main character. Treat me like a god.")

[quigonkenny]

You presume too much. All we know is that Itsuki stated that Tsuruya's family helps to fund his Organization. And we don't even know if they know just what they're funding, much less whether Tsuruya herself knows whether they're being funded or why. It certainly seems clear that Tsuruya's aware there is something odd surrounding Mikuru, Haruhi, Kyon, and the rest of the SOS-dan, but we have nothing to suggest that awareness is due to anything other than her own perceptive abilities. Besides, even if she's only in the know because of her family's involvement, she's hardly the type to just blindly follow their concerns.

[J the Drafter]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Has one ever noticed how ironic it is that Tsuruya and Mikuru are best friends? It is known that Tsuruya's family supports Itsuki's agency, which has a conflict in view with Mikuru's faction over Haruhi. Tsuruya would know about and share this friction, so wouldn't this make her prejudiced against Mikuru instead of making them friends?

I had a thought here about this. Maybe the time travelers arranged events so that Mikuru and Tsuruya would become friends, in order to give themselves a possible lever against allies of the espers.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by J the Drafter

I had a thought here about this. Maybe the time travelers arranged events so that Mikuru and Tsuruya would become friends, in order to give themselves a possible lever against allies of the espers.

That would have been plausible except for one tiny detail...

Time Travellers in the Haruhi-verse don't arrange events because they want to. They arrange events because they had to.

If Tsuruya was not recorded historically to have been Mikuru's friend, then young Mikuru would never have been allowed to befriend her. And if Tsuruya was always known to suppose to be young Mikuru's friend, then Adult Mikuru has no choice but to send her younger self to befriend Tsuruya.

After all, Adult Mikuru remembered Tsuruya; how would she be willing to destroy her own past and risk changing her own timeline?

I don't know why there are still people who still believe Time Travellers had any choice in anything they do. I guess what we need is a new animated season of Haruhi, in order to show what being a Time Agent is really about.

[mielipuoli]

The Time Travellers had a choice the "first time" around, now they're just making sure everything still fits their history.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by mielipuoli

The Time Travellers had a choice the "first time" around, now they're just making sure everything still fits their history.

Except with the way Haruhi time is set up, there's no such thing as a "first time around." The timeline is one single entity; otherwise you couldn't have closed loops (or really, even time travelers, because the first trip to the past would screw up the future unless it was a predetermined event).

[Ithekro]

We think that is how it works...however we've seen stuff that counters pretermined events (the entire Endless Eight ordeal for instance were things happen differently. If predetermined was the case, either it would have never happened, or they would remain the the loop forever with no variations.)


We'll see what happens with Books 10 and 11, as we have two timelines there to sort out...or perhaps parallel dimentions.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

We think that is how it works...however we've seen stuff that counters pretermined events (the entire Endless Eight ordeal for instance were things happen differently. If predetermined was the case, either it would have never happened, or they would remain the the loop forever with no variations.)

Well, it's already been established that Haruhi breaks time (none exists before the Tanabata event, for example). Aside from the inconsistencies attributable to her, though, the predetermined model should be the one used when discussing time travel in general.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't know why there are still people who still believe Time Travellers had any choice in anything they do. I guess what we need is a new animated season of Haruhi, in order to show what being a Time Agent is really about.

That's why Mikuru is sent into this so blindly. The more she knows, the fewer options are available to her. The wonders of predestination ensure that whatever choices she makes blindly, with all the free will she's willing to exercise, will be the correct ones. There's no paradox in not knowing what your actions are going to be, and then doing whatever you were going to do; the paradox comes when you do know what you're predestined to do, because then your choice really matters. If you choose other than what you're predestined to choose, the future ends. That's why the time travelers are so deathly afraid of Yuki. She, like all the interfaces, has the opportunity to know everything she's predestined to do (thanks to her ability to synchronize with future versions of herself), but she also has free will, moreso even than the other interfaces.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I'd argue that they really have nothing to fear about Nagato damaging their history. Between the moment Kyon met her and December 18th, she knew exactly what she was going to do and when she was going to do it. And, regardless of the consequences she'd have to face, she played her part to the letter. After that point in time, they have no reason to worry about her in particular that wouldn't also apply to Kyon, as neither possesses any foreknowledge beyond "Mikuru survives to become an adult."

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

You presume too much. All we know is that Itsuki stated that Tsuruya's family helps to fund his Organization. And we don't even know if they know just what they're funding, much less whether Tsuruya herself knows whether they're being funded or why. It certainly seems clear that Tsuruya's aware there is something odd surrounding Mikuru, Haruhi, Kyon, and the rest of the SOS-dan, but we have nothing to suggest that awareness is due to anything other than her own perceptive abilities. Besides, even if she's only in the know because of her family's involvement, she's hardly the type to just blindly follow their concerns.

Well Tsuruya is just a high school student. I'd imagine that SOMEONE in charge of the Tsuruya familiy had some idea of what they were pouring money into. Cause you know. Most people don't privately fund secret organizations for no reason.

[Ithekro]

Which makes you wonder...just how large are all these powers arrayed around Haruhi? And how come no one seems to notice aside from Kyon, who doesn't seem to notice a lot outside his direct contacts?