2009-07-11, 10:50 | Link #1161 | ||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Of course, you're arguing from the assumption that everyone normally picks the job they really want, and that the Destiny Plan will always push you away from that into something you won't like. Now, living in a capitalist society and having met a lot of people from a wide range of jobs, I can assure you that is rarely the case; I know plenty of civil servents, professors, ROAD military personel, and a plethora of people in the service industry who didn't dream of getting where they are today. The Destiny Plan is as likely to shuffle you to something you enjoy as not, so asking "how would you feel if you were pushed away from a job you like and for half the pay" can be just as easily countered "how would you feel if you were pushed from a job you hated and gained twice the pay?" Quote:
Yes, you're still insinuating that people are exiled by a double-speak police state without backing it up. Now, will you please support, from actual source material and not your own ideology, that those who left the Destiny Plan on Mars did so on anything but their own violation? |
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2009-07-11, 11:02 | Link #1162 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Destiny Plan WILL solve the problems of the SEED world. Except as you pointed out, it require everyone who disagreed with it to leave. So why can't we just solve the problem with the SEED world by requiring everyone who want to have wars to leave and never come back? I am not disagreeing with Fukuda, the Director, when he claimed the world would be at peace forever under Destiny Plan. As long as the Police State works, there would be peace. Your claim that it wouldn't be a police-state is entirely contrary to what we have shown with Gilbert, who clearly manipulate the media as to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities, and use lethal force against his opponents. Fukuda said there will be peace; he never said the people would be happy.
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2009-07-11, 12:21 | Link #1164 | |
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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2009-07-11, 12:40 | Link #1165 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And how is he going to do that? Why would someone who disagree want to participate? It makes as much sense,, as I said earlier, to "Have everyone who want to start a war, to not start a war". If you can somehow magically make everyone do things the way you want, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be a war to begin with. If you can pressure everyone into accepting Destiny Plan even if they don't want to, then you can pressure everyone into having no war even if they want to fight. In which case we can skip the Genetic-testing machine as redundant and useless.
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2009-07-11, 13:11 | Link #1166 | ||
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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2009-07-11, 13:21 | Link #1167 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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You just said that holding people down with force doesn't work, but what else but force does Dullendal have to pressure people with? The official Destiny Plan exerts no force at all; it is just a job selection machine. Tell me... Exactly what "pressure" could Dullendal apply that doesn't involve force?
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2009-07-11, 13:44 | Link #1168 | |||
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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It's quite obvious that Dullendal would rather use the media "to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities", but the answer that Orb used was we'll never accept. The Destiny plan only eliminates all possibilities of war if the entire population participates. if a nation such as Orb doesn't participate, with that much power, what isn't stopping them from starting a war again in the future? Not all the leaders of Orb will be like Cagalli, sticking to ideals. The use of force now warrants the end result: Everlasting Peace. The point I'm trying to reiterate is that the Destiny plan was the best course of action. |
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2009-07-11, 13:57 | Link #1169 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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So you're basically saying the whole world should have been forced into the Destiny Plan or die? That makes Durandal no different from any other villian who had a plan that would generally benefit the world except from the fact that they were forcing it on the world with no choice and killing anyone who disagreed. Like Schinziel from Code Geass (who also had the director say his plan would work perfectly, just that a minority of people would suffer because of it) or Light from DN.
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2009-07-11, 14:04 | Link #1170 | ||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Japanese children's cartoons, yes, we're familiar with the term...
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The people who told us that the Destiny Plan was bad and evil were Lacus and co... who didn't even know what the plan entailed or what it was until after Durandel revealed it. Since they were already committed to fighting Durandel even before the Plan, they're the definition of a biased party. Quote:
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And really, who's happy with the status quo? The Naturals, who are both jealous of and furious towards the coordinators? The PLANTS, whose citizens are dismissive of naturals but eternally afraid of their own genocide? Lacus and Kira, who despair at the conflicts and feel compelled against their desires to fight? Athrun, who constantly doubts his cause? Cagelli, who is surrounded on all sides by people, friend and foe alike, who would have her sacrifice her father's ideals? People like Shinn, who continue to lose family and friends in the reoccurring conflicts? Who is happy? And who actually tried to address the problems that caused the world's unhappiness? |
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2009-07-11, 14:07 | Link #1171 | |
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But as to your first sentence, not quite. It would be better to say that the whole world of Destiny should accept the Destiny Plan, or it will kill itself repeatedly until it destroys itself. |
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2009-07-11, 14:10 | Link #1172 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Dean I've explained where I believe Durandal proves that he will force the world into the Destiny Plan and you keep ignoring it. I don't know what else to say than to prove my point.
Like I said before the whole reason Lacus and Kira go to the final battle against Durandal is that he has a destructive WMD that they believe he will fire at their home country if they reject the Plan (which they want to do). There point wasn't that DP was bad but that Requieming anyone who refused it was. Also at no point does Fukuda imply that the world of CE would destroy itself within years without the DP. That's just Durandal supporter bias talking. For all we know Kira and Lacus might do a great job of keeping the world safe. |
2009-07-11, 14:14 | Link #1173 | ||
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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2009-07-11, 14:19 | Link #1174 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Then that makes Durandal a villian for trying to force his plan on the world. There's nothing noble about that. That's inexcusable. People have the God given right to make their own choices in life. If Durandal was really a great guy he would have let Orb refuse. But he's not so he's no better than a tyrant. Whether you are right or not you can't force your methods on others. It's wrong.
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2009-07-11, 14:20 | Link #1175 | |
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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2009-07-11, 14:23 | Link #1176 | |||
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And, funnily enough, they've been fighting him all along with their own WMD, which they have been using every time. Yes, Neutron Jammer Canceler suits are considered WMDs in the Seed verse, which Lacus should definitely know. She helped mediate the treaty that declared them so, after all. Quote:
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2009-07-11, 14:24 | Link #1177 | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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2009-07-11, 14:25 | Link #1178 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Yes but it's his method in implimenting it that I have issues with. If he truly would have let people leave the plan then fine. But he clearly wasn't. That is why I supported Lacus and Kira. I'm not a sacrifice for the greater good kinda person.
Yes Lacus and Kira fought Durandal because they believe he tried to kill them and made a fake Lacus so that he could use Lacus's own influence for his own goals. (which I've also supported with evidence btw) And I hardly think a powerful MS that has it's pilot carefully aim to not kill most of the time (yeah sometimes it can't be helped but for the most part Kira is very good at not killing people despite what the Kira haters would lead you to believe) is comparable to a giant gun that only kills. Maybe if Kira slaughtered everyone in his path maybe, but he doesn't. Also there's no evidence that Lacus had an evil plot to take over Zaft. It just sort of happened. Lacus fought Durandal to take away his WMD that he was going to fire. Before that she fought against him because he was hostile to her and her allied country of Orb |
2009-07-11, 14:30 | Link #1179 | ||
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2009-07-11, 14:36 | Link #1180 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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If he won't let nations refuse the plan why would he let individuals leave? In fact where on Earth would they go? They'd have to basically give up their lives and head off into space somewhere.
But of course noone will probably want to refuse Durandal after the nation of Orb, and maybe Scandinavia were Requiemed into oblivion (which is what would have happened had Lacus faction not attacked him). So Durandal will basically terrify the world into obeying and ruling through fear. And any nation that decides they don't like the plan afterwards would also be threatened with Requiem. So while they'll be no wars peace will also have been effectively enforced through giant gun point. Also I don't support taxation, national security, or public safety at the expense of any other person either. But people do it and I'm not in a position to stop them. |
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