Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

The point I was trying to make was that Alto was still in dire straits about Ranka's decision to leave but he wasn't going to abandon Frontier because of something he wanted to do.

And how is that proof of him being indecisive? If anything, that's quite the opposite, I'd think... I mean, you have to be pretty sure about something, even when it might go against your "true" wishes.

Note I'm not saying I agree with your reasoning - that his true motives were in conflict with his decision to stay - I'm merely exposing how I think they would be contradicting (the two points, I mean).

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And how is that proof of him being indecisive? If anything, that's quite the opposite, I'd think... I mean, you have to be pretty sure about something, even when it might go against your "true" wishes.

Note I'm not saying I agree with your reasoning - that his true motives were in conflict with his decision to stay - I'm merely exposing how I think they would be contradicting (the two points, I mean).

At one point in the series Alto says "we'll bring Ranka back" and then later he states "I'll kill Ranka." Naturally Alto chooses the latter but during the final battle, there is a chance to save Ranka in which he does so. I'm not quite sure, but that seems pretty indecisive to me

[Death Header]

Having read some of the responses there it kinda solidifies my views on most Ranka fans. I kinda LOL'd at some of the responses honestly. It seems like they like like AruRanka there without needlessly bashing Sheryl. Then again I've already been warned away enough from that forum that I would never think to join it.

They have their own view on A x R, we have ours. Don't bash them for what their opinions are.

Then again, what's the point.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Death Header

They have their own view on A x R, we have ours. Don't bash them for what their opinions are.

Then again, what's the point.

I'm not bashing them, for their opinions I'm bashing them based on the fact that they can't seem seem to support one coupling without bashing the other party.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I'm not bashing them, for their opinions I'm bashing them based on the fact that they can't seem seem to support one coupling without bashing the other party.

Isn't that true all the way around?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Isn't that true all the way around?

I know that both sides can get pretty bad, and I really dislike that. I go out of my way to avoid places where people do that, that's why I waited so long to post my thoughts.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I know that both sides can get pretty bad, and I really dislike that. I go out of my way to avoid places where people do that, that's why I waited so long to post my thoughts.

I dislike it as much as anybody else but it's not fair to condemn one group when both groups are guilty of the same thing.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I dislike it as much as anybody else but it's not fair to condemn one group when both groups are guilty of the same thing.

Yes but two wrongs don't make a right, and I was commenting on what I witnessed, and from my own personal experience.

[justavisitor]

@wisteria233
I am obviously not a Sheryl fan but oh man, you are making them look really bad...I am not supposed to intervene but Sheryl fans don't deserve this reputation you are creating

[cheesie]

Magnus, it's a well-thought post, but the weight of your essay seems to be more concerned with the intent of discussing the probability of the two pairings rather than expanding from your main point, that is, to "prove that Ranka has no chance." In order to do so:

a) Alto's for both girls has to be defined in a way that both sides could come to a mutual argument; it usually comes in the form of a love confession, a rejection or something equally weighty. Certainly one side has to come kicking and screaming, but there's definitely a white flag visibly soaked with blood. This was not offered in the series.

b) An official word from Kawamori and Co. This may be a bit more controversial for obvious reasons, but is still capable of supporting your main point. However, the amount of fanrage vs worship over Kawamori being er, Kawamori in the last few months certainly made it doubtful whether he would ever come clean on the issue.

Of course there are a few alternatives, but these are the main solutions that sprung to mind.

Using the level of maturity of the two girls as a gauge to determine the outcome puts more weight on 'why x deserves Alto better' rather than 'y has zero chance". Not that I couldn't see where you're coming from, but I would advise re-wording your main point just so the readers could gain a clear idea of what the objectives of the essay are.

__

We all love each other. Right? *equips a pitchfork*

ETA: Will be back after a short hiatus, so replies will have to hold.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by cheesie

We all love each other. Right? *equips a pitchfork*

If Swamp ever leaves you, I'll be waiting

[Natsuki Hyuga]

In regards to the which side of the fans-bashing, it would be wise for all of us to stop using "what Ranka fans" and "what Sheryl fans" did/done/are/*insert something* People are too sensitive anyway jk)

Still, this goes both ways, and I'm getting more than aggravated seeing the... Well, for the lack of word possible with this faulty brain, "badmouthing" and judgemental between both fans rather than the characters' relationship. And how some people seem to be bothered by it and sneak it in somewhere :| I mean, c'mon, wry so srs? <3

Not that I mind a Sheryl/Ranka yuri, Sheryl/Alto/Ranka OT3, everyone/everyone harem right now~

... Still good ol' memories of shipping wars <3

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

If Swamp ever leaves you, I'll be waiting

... You sure you are prepared for...

... Never mind, Dexxy. That was not a good imagination with S&M ;-; Bu-But I'm still supporting Swampy/Tsundere!Cheesie more than anything just like how I shipped Vending Machine/Laptop than Glasses/Handphone! *harts*

Was that a bad analogy Swampy? Or ackem-sensei? :x

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Magnus, it's a well-thought post, but the weight of your essay seems to be more concerned with the intent of discussing the probability of the two pairings rather than expanding from your main point, that is, to "prove that Ranka has no chance." In order to do so:

a) Alto's for both girls has to be defined in a way that both sides could come to a mutual argument; it usually comes in the form of a love confession, a rejection or something equally weighty. Certainly one side has to come kicking and screaming, but there's definitely a white flag visibly soaked with blood. This was not offered in the series.

b) An official word from Kawamori and Co. This may be a bit more controversial for obvious reasons, but is still capable of supporting your main point. However, the amount of fanrage vs worship over Kawamori being er, Kawamori in the last few months certainly made it doubtful whether he would ever come clean on the issue.

Of course there are a few alternatives, but these are the main solutions that sprung to mind.

Using the level of maturity/development of the two girls as a gauge to determine the outcome puts more weight on 'why x deserves Alto better' rather than 'y has zero chance". Not that I couldn't see where you're coming from, but I would advise re-wording your main point just so the readers could gain quite a clear idea of what the objectives of the essay are.

No, I don't think so. You are coming from the same direction as Swampy, who also criticised for not having a complete 100% tight proof. But that is the point, the two methods you cited above are denied to us by the creators, as is the stand-point of Alto ( at least in the series, the light novels seem much better about that ).

If we'd already gotten the things you want me to present, we wouldn't still be discussing how the romance ended, right?

I therefore chose an alternative route to extrapolate the most probable outcome, which is, as noted in my answer to Swampy:

a.) Prior behaviour patterns
b.) History between the characters
c.) Emotional state and state of development of the characters ( i.e. maturity ).

The ending did not happen in a vacuum and the three mains were shaped by those three points when they got there. Likewise, after the ending those three points would have influenced further developments, and by those standards, which I explained in the essay, Ranka has no chance of ending up with Alto.

At least in the natural course of events, i.e. if the characters would still develop in the same veins as they did in the series. There is just too vast a gulf between Ranka and the two others for her to be viable as a romance option.

I can't predict, of course, if the writers would try to jump her up further than they did in the series finale, which felt very unnatural to me and many others. But since we probably are not getting further material in the series universe, but rather in the movie universe, extrapolating from what happened in the series is where we're at.

----

BTW, a little response to some of the criticism on that board, a main point seems to be made that the confirmed sex from the light novels is not official canon. True enough, on the the face of it, but we had long discussions here much prior to to the novels coming out, where we established that Sheryl and Alto probably had made love that night, due to certain symbolic signs in the scene and the afthermath. The light novels were just confirmation.

My implication that Sheryl and Alto had lots of sex off-screen is inference on my part, but seems logical enough. Would you not enjoy each other to the fulleest if you had the prime opportunity, on the eve of such desperate days as were ahead of Frontiers inhabitants?

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

At one point in the series Alto says "we'll bring Ranka back" and then later he states "I'll kill Ranka." Naturally Alto chooses the latter but during the final battle, there is a chance to save Ranka in which he does so. I'm not quite sure, but that seems pretty indecisive to me

Actually, no. You're overtly simplifying things, here.
Alto did say he'd kill Ranka, if she proved to be a traitor. As long as he thought so, he behaved that way (even shooting at her projected image in rage, at one point), but when it became clear that she was being manipulated, he went back to trying to save her - no back-and-forth decisions, here. Just reactions to the facts, as he perceived them.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Actually, no. You're overtly simplifying things, here.
Alto did say he'd kill Ranka, if she proved to be a traitor. As long as he thought so, he behaved that way (even shooting at her projected image in rage, at one point), but when it became clear that she was being manipulated, he went back to trying to save her - no back-and-forth decisions, here. Just reactions to the facts, as he perceived them.

Yeah, a good point. Alto always was acting with the best information he had at that time. That we, as viewers, knew sometimes better than he did, did not filter magically through to him in the show.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

@wisteria233
I am obviously not a Sheryl fan but oh man, you are making them look really bad...I am not supposed to intervene but Sheryl fans don't deserve this reputation you are creating

What, its not something I haven't said before. I have said many times that it was rare that I've ever seen a Ranka who wasn't an insane shipper. I've said it many times before that I don't like those kind of people. I'm just speaking from my own experience with Ranka fans, except DeX-kun. I know that both sides can be pretty bad, but I've met a lot more Ranka fans who were like that. I'm not saying anything new.

Spoiler for for blatent shipping:

Though I'd rather support Ranka with just Sheryl myself though that's just me.

[KaoruLia]

Whoa whoa cool down with the Ranka hate. Magnus your essay was good, I agree with a lot of the points. But seeing things from one side isn't gonna answer the overall question. To be fair, if there is similar response from pro-Ranka fans should be posted here too, so people can judge for themselves which makes more sense. Unless it was already posted in the other site? (I don't visit it)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Whoa whoa cool down with the Ranka hate. Magnus your essay was good, I agree with a lot of the points. But seeing things from one side isn't gonna answer the overall question. To be fair, if there is similar response from pro-Ranka fans should be posted here too, so people can judge for themselves which makes more sense. Unless it was already posted in the other site? (I don't visit it)

Ranka hate?

[BetoJR]

Yeah, if anything, things are quite mild here, these days.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Yeah, if anything, things are quite mild here, these days.

Indeed. I don't hate Ranka, I pity the poor girl. She got the short stick of the three mains, in all departments.

Doesn't mean that I can't get indignant at times about some of the BS she pulled on the others.