(L) Freezing [Manga]

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, it could be that Maria's been subtly destroying mankind like you said. But it could also be that she did develop a soft side for mankind and decide to save them. I mean, she did give humanity a way to fight the Nova - after all, if it weren't for her, we'd have no Stigmatic Body possessers who can use their greater power to stop the more powerful Nova. No male ones to use their Freezing to help the Pandora get stronger and defeat the more powerful Nova enemies, either.

Maybe Stella, Rana, Ticy and the other Pandora Kazuya used his power on being Partial Stigmatic Body possessors is actually a good thing. If they did become Partial Stigmatic Body possessors, of course. Maybe they became Transcendental Pandora without getting even a Partial Stigmatic Body.

[Twi]

I'm not doubting that this is her idea of helping, but the emotional issues that seem to follow nearly everyone who has a strong connection to her is...worrying.

Besides, Gengo's made it clear humanity is pretty much done one way or another. Either we evolve into something like Lana or breed into someone like Kazuya, or we get wiped out by the Novas.

Edit: On another note, when did Pandora Mode stop being... you know, useful?
Edit 2: If Kazuya had gotten with Ouka, wouldn't the same mess that happened to his father happen to her in the end? I doubt Gengo would have approved knowing that.
Edit 3: You know, going back and looking at a lot of the older chapter... the author kind of screwed up where he was going. It was like he was going in one direction and decided that "Oh crap, these girls are too bitchy for me to use later on" and then tried to make them more sympathetic after the fact, once things got to the point where they had to deal with the bigger threats.

If you look at the type of abuse Satellizer went through, Ingrid removing her stigmata and Attia wanting to destroy them (and remember, these are heroic stigmata at that), and the outright gang-beating, the third years had crossed the line wayyyy too many times. Reasonably speaking, they had no authority to do that and the moment everything was said and done she could have either gotten them put right back in the former case, or the latter results in them getting their own removed for destroying valuable assets that cannot be replaced. Chiffon's mostly indifference in keeping them off her firmly can be explained more clearly (she wasn't human and had a limited concept of it), but as for the other adults and staff... if West Genetics is supposed to be the leader of the rest, how the Hell can they have that kind of oversight?

That's bordering on SoD-breaking.

[DragonOsman]

What's SoD?

And yeah, mankind is pretty much screwed one way or the other, but at least Maria did give them a way to fight back against the Nova. It's true that the emotional trauma and stuff is a clear downside, though.

I also don't understand why Gengo tried to pair Kazuya up with Ouka even though Ouka was a normal human and would've ended up the same way as Orie if she'd gotten with Kazuya. The Pandora are definitely the best for him, so it's good that he finally decided to let Kazuya be with Stella.

And yeah, you're right about Pandora Mode. I want to see more of that.

[amtro]

Suspension of Disbelief. But the abbreviation is not common. He should've just typed out suspension of disbelief, judging by the length of his post.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Twi

I'm not doubting that this is her idea of helping, but the emotional issues that seem to follow nearly everyone who has a strong connection to her is...worrying.

Besides, Gengo's made it clear humanity is pretty much done one way or another. Either we evolve into something like Lana or breed into someone like Kazuya, or we get wiped out by the Novas.

Edit: On another note, when did Pandora Mode stop being... you know, useful?
Edit 2: If Kazuya had gotten with Ouka, wouldn't the same mess that happened to his father happen to her in the end? I doubt Gengo would have approved knowing that.
Edit 3: You know, going back and looking at a lot of the older chapter... the author kind of screwed up where he was going. It was like he was going in one direction and decided that "Oh crap, these girls are too bitchy for me to use later on" and then tried to make them more sympathetic after the fact, once things got to the point where they had to deal with the bigger threats.

If you look at the type of abuse Satellizer went through, Ingrid removing her stigmata and Attia wanting to destroy them (and remember, these are heroic stigmata at that), and the outright gang-beating, the third years had crossed the line wayyyy too many times. Reasonably speaking, they had no authority to do that and the moment everything was said and done she could have either gotten them put right back in the former case, or the latter results in them getting their own removed for destroying valuable assets that cannot be replaced. Chiffon's mostly indifference in keeping them off her firmly can be explained more clearly (she wasn't human and had a limited concept of it), but as for the other adults and staff... if West Genetics is supposed to be the leader of the rest, how the Hell can they have that kind of oversight?

That's bordering on SoD-breaking.

Was Pandora mode ever useful? If I remember correctly, everyone who has used it ended up losing.

[DragonOsman]

I guess it just depends on how and when you use it. It's like a weapon, so if a dumb person uses it in a really dumb way, of course it won't matter much. Right?

[Twi]

I'm just saying, if it's supposed to boost a pandora's basic abilities then by the time they've gotten to Ticy and Stella's level it should give them a significant boost. Yet, even the red shirt pandoras seem to have stopped using them when it could save their lives. Did the author just forget about that or what?

But yeah, like I said, it seems like he was going one direction and then headed towards another with the third years.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, that's true, too. He could've forgotten about it, or maybe he decided that it's not needed anymore.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by Twi

I'm not doubting that this is her idea of helping, but the emotional issues that seem to follow nearly everyone who has a strong connection to her is...worrying.

Besides, Gengo's made it clear humanity is pretty much done one way or another. Either we evolve into something like Lana or breed into someone like Kazuya, or we get wiped out by the Novas.

Edit: On another note, when did Pandora Mode stop being... you know, useful?
Edit 2: If Kazuya had gotten with Ouka, wouldn't the same mess that happened to his father happen to her in the end? I doubt Gengo would have approved knowing that.
Edit 3: You know, going back and looking at a lot of the older chapter... the author kind of screwed up where he was going. It was like he was going in one direction and decided that "Oh crap, these girls are too bitchy for me to use later on" and then tried to make them more sympathetic after the fact, once things got to the point where they had to deal with the bigger threats.

If you look at the type of abuse Satellizer went through, Ingrid removing her stigmata and Attia wanting to destroy them (and remember, these are heroic stigmata at that), and the outright gang-beating, the third years had crossed the line wayyyy too many times. Reasonably speaking, they had no authority to do that and the moment everything was said and done she could have either gotten them put right back in the former case, or the latter results in them getting their own removed for destroying valuable assets that cannot be replaced. Chiffon's mostly indifference in keeping them off her firmly can be explained more clearly (she wasn't human and had a limited concept of it), but as for the other adults and staff... if West Genetics is supposed to be the leader of the rest, how the Hell can they have that kind of oversight?

That's bordering on SoD-breaking.

Indeed, either LDY changes direction too often, or he ends up forgetting important plot points from earlier as he continues the story (ie the E-Pandora, who are clearly alive at the end of the 11th Nova Clash, yet Amelia speaks of them as if they all died. Not to mention he totally forgot about Jessica Novalizing and went on to the big flashback, we still don't know her exact fate. Not to mention Kazuya acts like he knows Erika, who supposedly died before he was even born. And he apparently forgot Ouka was to be Kazuya's bride, which seems like a really bad idea considering what happened to Orie).

As for Pandora Mode, yeah, it stopped appearing after the 10th Nova Clash, I guess it detracted from the fanservice factor so LDY stopped using it, foolish reason I know but it's the only thing I can think of.

[amtro]

The E-Pandora are still an experimental unit and it was the advancements in the research and development of E-Pandora coupled with the liquid stigma in the Valkyries that lead to the current LP stigma that Rana is using. In fact her stigma was meant for Valkyrie usage and that's why she went out of control.

Also the manga makes a point of mentioning that the Pandora Mode modules are an outdated, obsolete technology that is no longer in use.

[DragonOsman]

@Alzahad: I could be wrong, but isn't it actually true that the E-Pandora all died except for Amelia?

@Amtro: So, wait, Rana went out of control because of the Stigmata in her being for Valkyrie usage (what's the name?)? Could you show me the page? I thought she went out of control because of Stigmata's message to "Destroy everything"?

[Twi]

Some of the E-Pandora were alive when Chiffon died, but its suggested from Amelia's dialogue that the Mark 4 eventually finished them off.

As for Rana, she linked her stigmata into the new Valkyrie System so that she could fight against the out of control LP. It gave her a power boost, but the urge to destroy everything was too great for her to ignore.

And the armored Pandora Mode may have been outdated, but its better than just skin and bones. Besides, Charles had an upgraded version during her fight with Elizabeth and I haven't seen that being used either.

[DragonOsman]

The other E-Pandora may also have lost their power, unless I'm mixing something up. It's either that or they died, or even both.

Thanks for the clarification on Rana's situation. How will Kazuya save her, though? Will his Freezing help her snap out of it?

I don't remember the upgraded Pandora Mode, though, sorry. Been a long time for a lot of these things, so my memory is fuzzy.

[Twi]

No clue on the Rana thing, I don't read the raws and the summary on pages 165-168 don't clarify.

On the subject of Pandora mode: Chapter 74 - Page 7, Charles explains just how much more powerful she is because of the Vital-Type Pandora mode. A few chapters later, she gets her ego kicked in. I only noticed because I had gone back to look at it.

[DragonOsman]

Even the RAWs haven't gotten to the point where Kazuya would try to save Rana. So far, they've only noticed that that side of the battlefield is in trouble. Kazuya and the others are on their way there at the end of Chapter 198.

Okay, yeah, I guess LDY forgot about the upgraded Pandora Mode.

[amtro]

Kazuya was last seen using his omni-directional freezing prior to imouto's appearance. The same he used to save Cassandra and freeze the Nova Commanders in place.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Okay, yeah, I guess LDY forgot about the upgraded Pandora Mode.

Probably because it would have completely rendered the LP immune to their one glaring weakness....

[DragonOsman]

@Amtro: Yeah. That, too. We don't know what's going to happen when he comes to save to Rana, though.

@Twi: And what exactly is that weakness?

[amtro]

Degeneration I guess. The LPs have no weakness, that's why they are being mass produced. The Pandora Mode suits would disengage the moment the user went over a certain treshold of stigma degeneration. But LP's, transcended Pandora and N3 class Pandora class Novas are far beyond that level. Pandora Mode stabilizes a static stigma, while the mass produced LP stigma supposedly flushes out on its own .

[DragonOsman]

So do the Legendary Stigmata not give the Legendary Pandora the risk of degenerating? Is that what you mean?