[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Northernme]

Yeah, there's definetely a connection.. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with the story, but it would be interesting to see which stake killed whom and when, and whether this could correspond to the adults..

As for the epitaph, I think I'll give up for now.. I've found no shore, and looking without proper japanese skills sucks.

[Jan-Poo]

that's true... there's also the fact that

Spoiler for Ep3:

Kyrie fought against Leviathan and that's ok, envy VS envy

But why Rudolf VS Belphegor? Does that mean that Rudolf is the sloth one?

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

That can be~ sloth also includes cowardice, it was mentioned a few times that Rudolph never had the courage to stand up against his father, Eva or Krauss
Also you seem to forget...every human is a sinner and every human has committed different kinds of sins which don't always fall under the same "category" and sometimes those sins are close and fall under more category then one. For example
Envy, Greed, Gluttony can fall under the same sin. Because of gluttony (it's not just about eating xD It's about selfishness) and greed you envied others.
And if you really want to it's possible to commit one bad thing but sinned all seven.
And never forget all "Bad things" belong to the mortal sins.
You should imagine mortal sins like a tree with seven big branches with many sprigs.


Edit: BTW Jessica was killed by Lust (she loved a servant), Kanon was killed by wrath (angry about the death of Jessica or something)

[Northernme]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I noticed something long ago and just thought because we talk about numbers~ I should say it
There are seven adults who want the inheritance. 7 sins and of course if there are 7 sin then there are 7 stakes.
Natsuhi-Pride
Kyrie-Envy
Rudolph-Lust
Eva-Greed
Rosa-Wrath
Krauss-Sloth(?)
Hideyoshi-Gluttony(?)

Spoiler for Kills, Sisters:

I wonder if Ryuukishi07 thought that far.. I'd still say Rudolf is Lust.

From the game records, the kills for the sisters for first, second and third games are:

Leviathan of envy - Kumasawa, Kumasawa, (killed by Kyrie)
Lucifer of pride - Genji, George, Krauss
Satan of wrath - Kanon, Kanon, Natsuhi
Asmodeus of lust - Eva, Jessica, Rudolf
Belphegor of sloth - Nanjo, Nanjo, (killed by rudolf)
Mammon of greed - Kinzo, Shannon, Kyrie
Beelzebub of gluttony - Hideyoshi, Gohda, Hideyoshi

Interesting pattern for Kanon, Nanjo and Kuma-chan, eh?

Note that these are the end results; there were some fights which didn't end with the sisters gouging anyone.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

I think Ryuukishi07 thought so far he just needed to look at wikipedia and then the real sin of sloth would be explained

Like I said Jessica and Lust is easy.
Kanon is in both cases easy, he was angry about Shannon's/Jessica's death.
Hideyoshi is like we explained before.
Kumasawa and Envy, well... Did no one else notice that she has worked almost as long as Genji for Kinzo and wasn't granted the pleasure of being entrusted with the emblem, but Kanon with his 3 years working experience got the third rang and of course the emblem.

[Northernme]

Spoiler for Kuma-chan:

Well, I'm certain there's more to Kumasawa than meets the eye, and I certainly can't rule out her being envious.. Actually, now that I think about it, I think Kumasawa is the character we know least about (with Nanjo at close second). It does say in her file that she has "resigned in the middle of her job many times".. was it said somewhere she has worked in the mansion for as long as Genji?

And to further emphasize my Virgumasawa theory, Virgilia also resigned from her job as the endless witch.. yeah, it's a stretch, but I like the theory.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

That Kumasawa worked there nearly from the beginning, was said in the beginning of Episode 1. And that she often stops working and uses her age and such as a excuse.

Also...it's said that the jobs in the mansion are being paid well. If she worked there for so long she could easily stop working. but she doesn't. Why is that??
Well I could now suggest something...she fell in love with Kinzo. She envied the wife of him and after that Beatrice who got the full attention of Kinzo. Well~~~ but that's me and my low opinion of humans (Humans always need a selfish reason)

[Northernme]

Spoiler for Utterly preposterous claim:

Interesting.. but I've got an even wilder theory..

Virgilia was the original Beatrice, right? And she gave both her name and position to this nameless girl (who I'm guessing, at the time was furniture of Kinzo's), the girl we now know as.. well, Beatrice. You know, the golden-haired mother of all yanderes. Anyways, if Kumasawa=Virgilia, then from this follows..

Kumasawa was the original Beatrice!

As to why Kinzo changed his affections to the younger Beatrice, even I don't have a clue..

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

That could be explained by the most normal thing in the world. Aging.
It's sad but someone as selfish as Kinzo. He didn't like hat his woman got so old and was then fascinated by the young Beatrice.
Also are you sure that...the love of Kinzo to Beatrice is that of a lover and not that of a father? He didn't say anything against her saying "I almost think of you as a father". Couldn't it be that Beatrice is Kinzo's daughter with Kumasawa which was hidden from society because of his reputation? And of course Kumasawa envied then the other childs of Kinzo who were "free" and the mother of them?

[Northernme]

Spoiler for Kuma and Kinzo:

Yes, actually some of that did cross my mind too.. But I really don't think Beatrice is Kumasawa's daughter.. for one thing, Kumasawa seems rather decidedly japanese (although with her hair grey and eyes closed most of the time, I guess there's no way to be sure) while Beatrice clearly has some western DNA. And I wonder if Kinzo would've kept Kumasawa at the mansion after their relationship was over? Why would Beatrice not have known her mother, if said mother worked at the mansion? Why does Kinzo obsess over Beatrice and completely ignore Kumasawa?

Of course, Bern did say at the end of ep1 that it may be a mistake to think Beatrice is just a single person..

Edit - oh, now that I looked, there's also an interesting line when Virgilia first appears - she says she predicted Beatrice's game and thus chose to sleep in a place close to her.. which could be interpreted as her staying on the island because she knew someone would come to claim their vengeance.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

You need to think about it carefully, who said the "western" genes came from Kumasawa? It's more likely Kinzo himself. Alls his children don't look quite like normal asian, they are blond and such.

Why does Kinzo obsess over Beatrice and completely ignore Kumasawa?

Now combine the aging thing and the daughter thingy. Or it wasn't planned.

Also to throw Kumasawa out of the mansion is more likely the worst thing he could do, if she was thrown out...well tough luck Kinzo, if that happened to me I would contact the next best newspaper and talk so much that poor Kinzo wouldn't know what hit him.


Bern said that yeah...but I kinda don't trust Bern, she's to good to be true and I dunno just my feeling. But I think she is right in some aspects. The first thing I thought in Episode 1 is that Beatrice is not a person nor a being. I thought it was something a part of every human which is "Evil" "a Killer" or "Selfish and kills for that".
Also you need to look closely ...
"Beatrice "exists"!" Even when Maria say that exits is always in ""

[Northernme]

Spoiler for :

Oh, hadn't thought of that.. I guess it could be.. but I find it very hard to believe that a half-japanese would have been made a family head in an old and respectable japanese family in the pre-war era.. eh, Devil's proof I guess. It certainly would explain the western-obsession.

I don't know if the quotes mean much, I do see them used quite liberally in many other visual novels just to emphasize a word.. but yeah, Beatrice probably "exists" in a somewhat unorthodox way.

Also, some other things I've been thinking of include the colors of the eyes and the red texts that appear in the game that were not said by any magical character.

The eyes thing has been discussed before, but it is really interesting. All the humans have black eyes, Beatrice and ronove are blue, weapons are red. And I'm sure it's no coincidence that it's only at the finale of the episode that we see Virgilia's eyes, which are also blue.

As for the red text, well, the epitaph appears in red at least in episode 3 (well, I guess by now no one is doubting the gold exists anyway), and all the paintings on the doors are done with red paint. I'm not sure if it means anything, but with the effort put into this game, I find it hard to believe anything's coincidental.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

You seem to forget that Kinzo belonged to the branch family not to the head house. And every old Family has a few outsiders and black sheeps.

Eva-Beatrice eye's are blue, Ange's Eyes are blue~. Bernkastel's seem blueish in someway. Oh only Lambdadelta has not blue eyes, which sure is strang but screw that, she doesn't have black ones. By the was Maria has blue eyes.

Red is a color with many meanings...it's the color of passion. Passion can be anger or love (without love the truth cannot be seen it's in the theme song). Also in Christian believes it is the color of danger and the color of sin. Also don't forget we saw Kanon with red eyes once.

Blue has different meanings it can mean longing but blue is a cold color which makes it a color of you know coldness (in personality way). In the Judaism it stands for Hope and Revelation. Also it can mean royalty.

[rogerpepitone]

Who hired Kumasawa? I'd been assuming Krauss or Natsuhi, from comments about how she and Gohda are trusted more by the rest of the family and since she doesn't wear the eagle, but is that stated anywhere?

[Northernme]

Spoiler for eyes:

Indeed, if it wasn't clear by now, I'd say those eyes should prove Maria plays a central role in whatever the hell happens on that island. And Ange's eyes are bluish too.

I'd like to think LD's eyes are red because she's not exactly on Beatrice's side, same for Bern's purple. The red-eyed Kanon could've represented any number of things, but in the magic scene he was simply another one of the witch's furniture, a weapon to be exact, which is what I suspect the red eyes mean.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Who hired Kumasawa? I'd been assuming Krauss or Natsuhi, from comments about how she and Gohda are trusted more by the rest of the family and since she doesn't wear the eagle, but is that stated anywhere?

Spoiler for kuma:

It's been said that she was there when the siblings were still children, so most likely Kinzo or his wife. (Rosa mentions Kumasawa in her Kuwadorian flashback, and as Kitsu said, in ep1, it's said she's been there for almost as long as Genji)

[Jan-Poo]

I wouldn't think to much on hair colors, either way you'd have to think that the Hojo family in Higurashi was from north Europe descent (and i don't wanna guess what the Sonozaki family is supposed to be).

Usually in anime and such you see various hair colors but that's only for aesthetic purpose and you are supposed to imagine they are actually all black (same thing with the eyes). However it's been stated that Beatrice is blonde. It is still not enough to be 100% sure that the Beatrice we see on the portrait, and the consequently the metaBeatrice, appears as a western woman. It could be a japanese woman who died her hairs.


EDIT:

Also in Christian believes it is the color of danger

It's not just christian belief. Red as color of danger/passion/rage is embedded in our DNA, because that's the color of blood. that's why emergency lights, traffic lights (for stop) are in red (worldwide regardless of cultures). Red is a color that has a very high chance of attracting one's attention.

[Kitsu]

Hehe I think I've gone overboard there, but sill wasn't it said by Jessica or someone of the cousins that even if she has blond hair is likely to be japanese and Kinzo only named her Beatrice because he is freaking obsessed with "western culture"

Edit red: Yeah, I know that (for example a reason why chalkboards aren't red becaus it makes children agressive), but I wanted to point out what chrsitian believes because it goes in the occult direction. And more important was the sin thing

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm yeah now that you mention it i do remember that. I guess that from the portrait they were not able to state whether it was a an asian or western woman. Of course if she's got blonde hairs they must think that she died her hairs, unless Umineko is located in an alternate world were japanese can actually have various kind of hair colors. (kinda like Code Geass, in Lelouch bio data it's stated that he has purple eyes)

[Northernme]

Spoiler for Beato:

Yeah, in episode 1 Battler says Beatrice is blonde (well, he's talking about the portrait at the time, but we hear later from Rosa that The Beatrice from 19 years ago looked just like the portrait), but he also says that if it wasn't for her hair, he'd have thought it was his grandmother (who definetely was japanese).

So, if Beatrice's face looks japanese, I'd guess she's half or quarter-japanese, although the hair-dying is also a possibility. Well, since this is anime, she could be western too, but in reality it's really pretty easy to distinguish orientals and caucasians, hair or no hair.

So, I guess Beatrice really is Kinzo's daughter? I suppose that makes sense, although it doesn't really solve anything.

[Goose Boy]

I think I have a theory regarding the stakes...

Spoiler for Lenght of the stakes:

We have talked about faking death and those things, but.. how could you fake your death using stakes? Using a short one and some fake blood.

Which stakes have been thoroughly lenghted?

Lucifer and Satan when Jessica removed them from her parents in EP3, also Satan was seen complete in Ep1 when Kanon removed it, and in all the tips appear which stake killed who.

So, one killed by the rest of the stakes might be faking his/her death, as one of them could be shorter.

Lets take EP3, lets think about the only ones who could fake their death: Kyrie, Hideyoshi and Rudolf, who can kill Nanjo. So we have as candidates:

-Beelzebub, Asmodeus and Mammon.

One of them must be shorter, so lets go to EP1, Asmodeus and Beelzebub targeted Eva and Hideyoshi ( who are suspicious). So Asmodeus or Beelzebub must be the short stake.