Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Elestia

1) Mami: Dieing is worse than living as a MG, which she states herself were filled with hardships. (Being isolated from everyone, no one to talk to, fighting alone, no time for herself, and crying to herself to cope with her life.)

Contradicts with Mami's statement that she was glad for her second chance of life

2) Kyoko: Living with extreme poverty, and a father who is continually ignored by the community, but still have a loving family intact. Or having the loving family be murdered by their once "loving and kind" father and having to live with that fact with the rest of your life.

You don't quite know what effects poverty has on a family, do you?

"Levels of stress in the family have also been shown to correlate with economic circumstances. Studies during economic recessions indicate that job loss and subsequent poverty are associated with violence in families, including child and elder abuse. Poor families experience much more stress than middle-class families. Besides financial uncertainty, these families are more likely to be exposed to series of negative events and “bad luck,” including illness, depression, eviction, job loss, criminal victimization, and family death. Parents who experience hard economic times may become excessively punitive and erratic, issuing demands backed by insults, threats, and corporal punishment."

Oh yeah, sounds so much better than what happened. I actually view Kyoko as being in a no-win scenario, almost similar to Sayaka. The only difference being Kyoko was screwed no matter what happened(well, almost, if she had just kept her mouth shut...), while Sayaka does still have a chance to claim some happiness... if she gets over her own issues.

The choices given by QB are very difficult to determine which would be the better alternative.

But I do agree with this. Before we condemn Kyube/wish/MG life for the bad things that happened, we have to first remember that a part of it is the preexisting circumstances. The other part is the girl's own choices. At worst, Kyube offers a temporary reprieve, a moment of unbridled joy. How one goes from there, is one's own decision.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

(well, almost, if she had just kept her mouth shut...)

Her father learned about it,that doesn't mean she told him,for exemple maybe he started wondering what his daughter was going when going out at night and followed her.

[Seihai]

Well that would take away some of the stupidity/blame on Kyouko but it (sadly) wouldn't have changed anything either way.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Her father learned about it,that doesn't mean she told him,for exemple maybe he started wondering what his daughter was going when going out at night and followed her.

This is possible, but she could have just told him she was fighting evil witches to protect everyone. Her mistake was telling him about how she had wished for people to show up. If she had kept quiet on that end, there was no one else who could have said something.

Although, if it is possible that Mami and Kyoko knew each other, I suppose Mami could have found out and told the father, possibly not quite pleased at what Kyoko had wished for. Still, Kyoko would have had to tell Mami.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

This is possible, but she could have just told him she was fighting evil witches to protect everyone. Her mistake was telling him about how she had wished for people to show up. If she had kept quiet on that end, there was no one else who could have said something.

True but no one could've known that the oh-so-kind father would've reacted that way and that the ah-so-pure-and-faithful-daughter actually was "good" enough to lie / hide things from her dad especially when confronted. That said, it was still a mistake, sadly. And I still think even if she kept quiet, the dad still accused Kyouko of being a witch and was eventually able to put the pieces together himself. Hoh~ but yeah that's a silly "if xxx happened" speculation on my subjective part.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Vanish

True but no one could've known that the oh-so-kind father would've reacted that way and that the ah-so-pure-and-faithful-daughter actually was "good" enough to lie / hide things from her dad especially when confronted. That said, it was still a mistake, sadly. And I still think even if she kept quiet, the dad still accused Kyouko of being a witch and was eventually able to put the pieces together himself. Hoh~ but yeah that's a silly "if xxx happened" speculation on my subjective part.

These are good points, which is a big reason why I view that Kyoko was screwed either way. As she herself admitted, she didn't understand others feelings. She screwed up, like we all have growing up, only hers led to horrifying conclusions.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

Wait... Because only a few people are in danger of dying, it's okay to let them be?

No, that is not what I am trying to say. If you ever read some of my earlier posts. My point was that the lives that can be possibly saved using the MG system isn't a whole lot more then what it destroyed by making MGs. Another words, the ends does not justify the means nor is it clearly for a greater good.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

You seem to forget that Kyubey actually gives choice and information to these girls beforehand. Other magical familiars are content with throwing a magical stick at a bewildered girl and tell them to change. Heck, some even just say; "repeat after me!" without telling anything. Those jerks.

Does Yuuno tell Nanoha that being a magical girl could leave her crippled? Does Luna tell the bishoujo senshi that they could die on a planet far away from everyone they know? Occupational hazards can always happen.

You seem to forget that his method of giving choice and information is superficial and really is manipulation. Yes he does not force a girl to become MG but often put them in a position that they feel they have no choice - especially as a result of how information was presented to them.

I am not familiar with bishoujo senshi but Nanoha is aware of potential dangers of being a magical girl. Yuuno have not tried to deceive and manipulate Nanoha. She choose it for herself. Comparing Yuuno to QB is like comparing Marine Recruiter to Memphisto.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

How many people have to be tortured and killed before you accept the witches as a threat that really needs to be dealt with? 10? 50? 100? Let's at least get a number. And do you think this 12 episode series could show such a number to satisfy you?

For what it's worth, let's confine the witches victims to people who go missing, and who commit suicide.

....

So, please, give us a number of dead that would satisfy you, to make you think that maybe, perhaps, the witches would be worth killing.

I am not saying witches are not a threat. What I am saying is the threat is exaggerated. Because your whole argument is based on witches representing a serious threat that MG system may be employed to serve a greater good by eliminating that threat. What I am trying to say is the number of people that may possibly be killed by witches isn't much greater then the girls sacrificed to the MG system. There could be other means to deal with witches. Even if there isn't, well, one cannot justify the MG system as serving a greater good as the loss is almost as heavy as the gain.

In my previous posts, I already outlined to you that if the statistics of suicide rate is abnormally high, the society would take notice. Since that isn't the case, we have either two scenarios:
1. There aren't too many witches around and thus the casualty from their actions isn't high enough to cause abnormal suicide rates.
2. There are many witches around but there are also many MGs to deal with them - resulting in a low net loss rate to be low.

In either case, the ratio of number of MGs to witches are fairly low. Hence I raise the question that is the MG system really serving the greater good? Does sacrificing 1000 young girls justify saving 10000 others? It's all a matter of degree and we disagree on what that degree is, which has relevance on how we evaluate QB.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I am not familiar with bishoujo senshi but Nanoha is aware of potential dangers of being a magical girl. Yuuno have not tried to deceive and manipulate Nanoha. She choose it for herself. Comparing Yuuno to QB is like comparing Marine Recruiter to Memphisto.

I'd pretty much say Nanoha wasn't quite aware of the dangers of using magic, since it was her pushing her magic use that led to her crippling. That was, like, a major plot point in StrikerS.

His point remains valid: none of the other MG's were ever told everything about what they were getting into. Sakura didn't know about the testing trial until it actually happened; so Keroberos is evil for withholding that information. Yuuno didn't tell Nanoha that other mages might come into play; therefore he was evil for withholding that information. Luna didn't tell Usagi at the start she would have to face a nasty evil that killed her mom in a previous life; therefore Luna wa evil in withholding that information.

In my previous posts, I already outlined to you that if the statistics of suicide rate is abnormally high, the society would take notice. Since that isn't the case, we have either two scenarios:

Then you didn't read the link, nor really read into my post. If witch attacks are only 2% of all suicides, that wouldn't be a big percentage of all other normal suicides, thus society would not take notice. But as I showed, that is still thousands of people dying.

Are there really more than several thousand MG's dying in Japan, such that it would be easier to just let witches do their thing? Given Kyube's contracting rate, he'd be out of MG's in less than a day. Since we've only had one MG die out of 4 (and possibly 5), that let's us know that an MG dying isn't a normal everyday thing. Kyoko alone took out several easily.

And by the way, suicides in Japan are actually abnormally high, and climbing. This is the 12th straight year they've been over 30,000. How many people over 30,000 do you think it would take for society to really take notice? Another 5,000? 10,000?

Apparently you believe that if another 5,000 people die by suicide in a year, it's not a big deal, because society wouldn't take notice anyway.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

No, that is not what I am trying to say. If you ever read some of my earlier posts. My point was that the lives that can be possibly saved using the MG system isn't a whole lot more then what it destroyed by making MGs. Another words, the ends does not justify the means nor is it clearly for a greater good.

What is supposed to be destroyed by the MG system? Except witches and familiars.

You seem to forget that his method of giving choice and information is superficial and really is manipulation. Yes he does not force a girl to become MG but often put them in a position that they feel they have no choice - especially as a result of how information was presented to them.

Kyubei isn't responsible for said situations. Not for the accident, not for Kamijou's broken arm, not for Kyouko's family's misfortune. Also, they very well have a choice. And in each case, it was initially wiser to go for the wish. Mami could continue living. Kyouko's family achieved reputation and didn't have to starve any longer. Kamijou's hand was healed. Those are all good things. Kyubei just does what he does. Try making a contract with girls who can see him and who may have something they want changed. Whether the later happenings (Mami's death, Kyouko's familiy's downfall, Hitomi's revelation) are coincidences we don't know, but they're part of the tragedies at any rate which aren't directly linked to the MG system or the wish. In these cases, the girls mainly have a personal responsibility (and they're probably also rather unlucky but that's life for you).

I am not saying witches are not a threat. What I am saying is the threat is exaggerated. Because your whole argument is based on witches representing a serious threat that MG system may be employed to serve a greater good by eliminating that threat. What I am trying to say is the number of people that may possibly be killed by witches isn't much greater then the girls sacrificed to the MG system. There could be other means to deal with witches. Even if there isn't, well, one cannot justify the MG system as serving a greater good as the loss is almost as heavy as the gain.

So even if you think it can't be justified (risking deaths should never be, agreed), what is your alternative solution? And if it's about statistics: there's 1~2 MGs per territory. But a random number of witches per territory, and each one has the potential to have several people killed. Well, damn. So I agree that it's not as big a threat as some make it out to be, but it is one anyway. And we don't know another solution besides having MGs fight them! The girls who have potential to become MG are left with a yes or no choice. But at least they have one. If they go for the offer without even knowing that they have to fight witches which are bound to be dangerous one way or another, then you can't blame everything on Kyubei either.

In my previous posts, I already outlined to you that if the statistics of suicide rate is abnormally high, the society would take notice. Since that isn't the case, we have either two scenarios:
1. There aren't too many witches around and thus the casualty from their actions isn't high enough to cause abnormal suicide rates.
2. There are many witches around but there are also many MGs to deal with them - resulting in a low net loss rate to be low.

In either case, the ratio of number of MGs to witches are fairly low. Hence I raise the question that is the MG system really serving the greater good? Does sacrificing 1000 young girls justify saving 10000 others? It's all a matter of degree and we disagree on what that degree is, which has relevance on how we evaluate QB.

I think it's not justified. But better have 1000 MGs fight for 10000 people than have 0 MGs and eventually 11000 people NOT saved. Even the characters have different views on this matter. Madoka says it's unfair, Homura says it's not even enough of a prize. But what can you do? And it's not like MGs are existances that purely are victims who cannot do much. They do at least receive superhuman abilities as a great back up and possibly passive attributes.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If witch attacks are only 2% of all suicides, that wouldn't be a big percentage of all other normal suicides

That doesn't mean it's the right number,we have no way of knowing,you pulled that number out of nowhere:

So, all totaled, we have 933,300 potential witch cases. What fraction of that do we want to attribute to witches? 10%? Then only 93,330 people die to witched each year... in the US. Is that number big enough for you? Let's go smaller, and say out of all those people who go missing or commit suicide, only 2% are due to witches. A hardly noticeable amount in the grand scheme of things, right?

The bolded part in no way makes this the right number,it's nothing more than guesswork,for all we know it could be .02%.

[Decagon]

In defense of Kyoko's past, we do not know when she was first approached by QB but only that she made her wish when they were begging.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

That doesn't mean it's the right number,we have no way of knowing,you pulled that number out of nowhere:

The bolded part in no way makes this the right number,it's nothing more than guesswork,for all we know it could be .02%.

You are correct, of course. I only pulled up yearly suicides and missing persons per year, and the percentages were my attempt to put some numbers to this idea. What I wanted, was a number from Sagara, about how many people falling victim to witches it would take, before he recognized them as a threat to deal with. The numbers were just to play with and see how large this witch situation could potentially be.

So yes, I full acknowledge that. We go could smaller, but we'd still be left with a thousand per year, maybe a few hundred per year. Still too big, in my opinion.

Edit: It could be as high as 50%, too. How often do we hear, "I never imagined he'd kill himself! He seemed like he had so much to live for."

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Contradicts with Mami's statement that she was glad for her second chance of life

Not really, as I've said being alive doesn't automatically equate to being happy. Being glad she was alive might have been the better alternative, but to I argue was it really the best choice? Mami certainly had regrets to becoming a Magical girl when she confessed to Madoka, which highlights her unhappiness. She was unhappy and alive, but to say she preferred it to being dead is hard to conclude.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You don't quite know what effects poverty has on a family, do you?

"Levels of stress in the family have also been shown to correlate with economic circumstances. Studies during economic recessions indicate that job loss and subsequent poverty are associated with violence in families, including child and elder abuse. Poor families experience much more stress than middle-class families. Besides financial uncertainty, these families are more likely to be exposed to series of negative events and “bad luck,” including illness, depression, eviction, job loss, criminal victimization, and family death. Parents who experience hard economic times may become excessively punitive and erratic, issuing demands backed by insults, threats, and corporal punishment."

Unfortunately, that's speculation. From what we've seen and were shown in the anime, the only thing given to us in the anime episode, was that her family suffered from poverty. There were no indication that her family were abused or if there were any kind of domestic violence. There are plenty of poor families that I personally know that don't follow that correlation theory, and stating it as an inevitable fact is again speculation. It could happen certainly, but if we weren't given any hints or foreshadowing to it then your point is unfounded.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Oh yeah, sounds so much better than what happened. I actually view Kyoko as being in a no-win scenario, almost similar to Sayaka. The only difference being Kyoko was screwed no matter what happened(well, almost, if she had just kept her mouth shut...), while Sayaka does still have a chance to claim some happiness... if she gets over her own issues.

I would think having a hand in your father's mental break down and proceeding to murder your family in front of you is something worse, than just suffering with poverty, at that given time of course.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But I do agree with this. Before we condemn Kyube/wish/MG life for the bad things that happened, we have to first remember that a part of it is the preexisting circumstances. The other part is the girl's own choices. At worst, Kyube offers a temporary reprieve, a moment of unbridled joy. How one goes from there, is one's own decision.

I'm actually curious why QB doesn't help with the person in making a wish. Given the amount of experience he had with making wishes, and possibly seeing the outcomes of those wishes, he easily could have given some insightful advice on how to make a proper wish.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Not really, as I've said being alive doesn't automatically equate to being happy. Being glad she was alive might have been the better alternative, but to I argue was it really the best choice? Mami certainly had regrets to becoming a Magical girl when she confessed to Madoka, which highlights her unhappiness. She was unhappy and alive, but to say she preferred it to being dead is hard to conclude.

So, being glad does not mean being happy. Hmmm... let's check a thesaurus here, and see if the two words have incredibly similar meanings, by any chance...

Unfortunately, that's speculation. From what we've seen and were shown in the anime, the only thing given to us in the anime episode, was that her family suffered from poverty. There were no indication that her family were abused or if there were any kind of domestic violence. There are plenty of poor families that I personally know that don't follow that correlation theory, and stating it as an inevitable fact is again speculation. It could happen certainly, but if we weren't given any hints or foreshadowing to it then your point is unfounded.

I would think having a hand in your father's mental break down and proceeding to murder your family in front of you is something worse, than just suffering with poverty, at that given time of course.

Crazy does not come out of nowhere. Her father was having issues long before she made the wish, given that everyone was abandoning him and he couldn't provide for the family, and that he was spat on wherever he went... I'd say it was only a matter of time before he snapped. Kyoko's confession would have been like the straw on a camel's back.

I'm actually curious why QB doesn't help with the person in making a wish. Given the amount of experience he had with making wishes, and possibly seeing the outcomes of those wishes, he easily could have given some insightful advice on how to make a proper wish.

All we know is that he is bound by rules that don't allow him to suggest wishes. So either there is a bigger power in play that could enforce those rules on him, or he's abiding by some sort of treaty or bargain. I do hope they address this, among the other dozen issues they haven't addressed yet, but with 4 episodes left...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Crazy does not come out of nowhere. Her father was having issues long before she made the wish, given that everyone was abandoning him and he couldn't provide for the family, and that he was spat on wherever he went... I'd say it was only a matter of time before he snapped. Kyoko's confession would have been like the straw on a camel's back.

I thought it was the opposite: that he was doing well until Kyoko essentially told him that everything he ever believed in was a complete lie that his daughter had inadvertedly forced into the people.

If not then I'd attribute it to bad writing. Urobuchi Gen has a track record for making characters suddenly do stupid things for unconvincing reasons.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Haak

I thought it was the opposite: that he was doing well until Kyoko essentially told him that everything he ever believed in was a complete lie that his daughter had inadvertedly forced into the people.

If not then I'd attribute it to bad writing. Urobuchi Gen has a track record for making characters suddenly do stupid things for unconvincing reasons.

Close. Remember, people were leaving his church left and right, the family was penniless and starving. We're not aware of exact time frames, but when you get to starving, you pretty much don't have anything else left. The pressure on him would have been enormous; not only did it seem his teachings were in vain (which would form the core of his self-identity), but he was failing as a father and a husband to provide for his family.

Kyoko's wish brought people in, which would have helped stave off the madness consuming him, and perhaps brought him hope again. But then it was revealed to all be a lie when he found out that it was not due to him or his beliefs at all, but someone else compelling people to come.

In short, he was beginning to feel he was a huge failure, and just when he had some hope, it was revealed to be not because of him or his beliefs at all.

*snap*

It was the earlier harsh times that set him up, and Kyoko's wish just forestalled it.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Close. Remember, people were leaving his church left and right, the family was penniless and starving. We're not aware of exact time frames, but when you get to starving, you pretty much don't have anything else left. The pressure on him would have been enormous; not only did it seem his teachings were in vain (which would form the core of his self-identity), but he was failing as a father and a husband to provide for his family.

Kyoko's wish brought people in, which would have helped stave off the madness consuming him, and perhaps brought him hope again. But then it was revealed to all be a lie when he found out that it was not due to him or his beliefs at all, but someone else compelling people to come.

In short, he was beginning to feel he was a huge failure, and just when he had some hope, it was revealed to be not because of him or his beliefs at all.

*snap*

It was the earlier harsh times that set him up, and Kyoko's wish just forestalled it.

Speculation. What gives you the qualifications to make a psych profile of this guy and expect us to believe it? There isn't even a concrete timeline of the events between how much time they spent in poverty to the wish to the breakdown. You think a little kid wouldn't have made a wish within a week or even a few days?

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, being glad does not mean being happy. Hmmm... let's check a thesaurus here, and see if the two words have incredibly similar meanings, by any chance...

Sure, I'm glad you did me a favor, but that doesn't follow that it would make me happy. There see? There's no contradiction. In fact it happens all the time.

I'm glad I'm alive, but I'm completely miserable. I fear death more than I hate my life.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

All we know is that he is bound by rules that don't allow him to suggest wishes. So either there is a bigger power in play that could enforce those rules on him, or he's abiding by some sort of treaty or bargain. I do hope they address this, among the other dozen issues they haven't addressed yet, but with 4 episodes left...

Mmm, there's a difference between a suggestion and giving advice. But QB has given advice in general terms that wishes should not be taken lightly and that consideration should be given. So my curiosity to why QB hasn't given more advice is still left unsatisfied. It would be in his best interest to make sure the wish satisfies party to benefit his system to fight witches. Happy, fulfilled, motivated girls make for better fighters.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Elestia

I'm glad I'm alive, but I'm completely miserable. I fear death more than I hate my life.

That is exactly the mindset of Mami. So what are you complaining about? Yes, her life is miserable, yet she fear death more than she hate her life. So her standard of living improve!

So if Mami can go back in time to talk to herself who is 2 minutes of dying, will she tell her not to take Kyube's wish and choose death?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So yes, I full acknowledge that. We go could smaller, but we'd still be left with a thousand per year, maybe a few hundred per year. Still too big, in my opinion.

Well .02% leaves you at 93 people,the question asked is how many MG dying to save 93 people do you accept before you start thinking the system doesn't seem very efficient?0?5?10?50?more?

Edit: It could be as high as 50%, too. How often do we hear, "I never imagined he'd kill himself! He seemed like he had so much to live for."

Definatly,in fact I'm more of a "witches seem like a serious threat" kind of guy,if anything,because if the start of episode 1 isn't a dream,that looked pretty threatning
I just wanted to be sure that we were on the same page about your use of the 2% number