Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Thisguy]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

In any case. Since Signum's already Unisoned, Any sign of Zest? What about Hayate and Nanoha? The fleet?

Spoiler:

- Zest has already confronted by Signum, and they both go unison after that.
More specifically, Agito shows some sign of... suprise, discovery or something... at Signum engulfing her Lavantain with her flame, although we've yet to see what that implies.

- Hayate is taking command of aereal mages around Cradle, sweeping the swarm of Drones and supporting invasion teams' going in.
That can't be helped though, imo, for she would be the most unsuitable mage for indoor combat.

- Nanoha went in with Vita, but as they find out that Throne and Reactor are in exact opposite way, they choose to separate themselves as well.
Needless to say, Nanoha is going to Throne and Vita for Reactor.

- Fleet is... well, still in their peaceful journey.
Chrono and Lindy contacts Yuuno in the Library, who gives them information regarding Cradle.
Oh, and one more thing. Arf stays with Yuuno, and makes her very first official speech in Anime.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

Yes, it is definitely RF6's fault. Better to mass enough combat power to gain one objective than to provide inadequate forces for multiple objectives and fail. The targets can't be that time sensitive. RF6 had all of the time between the end of episode 17 and episode 20. That means they don't need to attack all three at once.

If going after all three objectives at once is what Jail is expecting, then RF6 is completely conceding the element of surprise. Concentrating on one or two objectives at a time lets them mass more combat power in those locations and takes advantage of the way Jail split his forces. Jail's defensive dispositions have issues as well since he is trying to defend all three locations without any substantial reserves. His forces are vulnerable to being pinned in place by limited holding attacks while RF6's main forces concentrate on the main objectives.

Splitting their forces evenly is one of the worst things each side could possibly do.

Actually, it is quite time-sensitive in a way.

If Cradle is not stopped before reaching activation point, I think it's pretty much game over.

Jail could escape easily if he wants to, since Sein is there. I take it that his 'tube-girls' are quite important, but the key was that delaying was dangerous, considering how bloody long it took for them to FINALLY pin down Jail.

And it's not like they can avoid the defenses towards the capital area.

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by aers

The cradle is time sensitive. If it reaches it's target location, it's game over. It's got an extremely powerful AMF field (when Nanoha and Vita land in it, their magic gets canceled and they start falling to the deck - Nanoha has to expend extra power to even continue flying). The fowards and the other personel obviously can't operate under this condition, so who else can they send to the Cradle?

So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail's remaining forces.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Actually, it is quite time-sensitive in a way.

If Cradle is not stopped before reaching activation point, I think it's pretty much game over.

Jail could escape easily if he wants to, since Sein is there. I take it that his 'tube-girls' are quite important, but the key was that delaying was dangerous, considering how bloody long it took for them to FINALLY pin down Jail.

And it's not like they can avoid the defenses towards the capital area.

Yes, but going after both doesn't do any good if they lose in either area as those forces they used where they lost could have been used to increase their chances of winning at the other location. It greatly increases the chances of losing in both areas. Then there's also that third objective they're after.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Thisguy

Spoiler:

- Zest has already confronted by Signum, and they both go unison after that.
More specifically, Agito shows some sign of... suprise, discovery or something... at Signum engulfing her Lavantain with her flame, although we've yet to see what that implies.

- Hayate is taking command of aereal mages around Cradle, sweeping the swarm of Drones and supporting invasion teams' going in.
That can't be helped though, imo, for she would be the most unsuitable mage for indoor combat.

- Nanoha went in with Vita, but as they find out that Throne and Reactor are in exact opposite way, they choose to separate themselves as well.
Needless to say, Nanoha is going to Throne and Vita for Reactor.

- Fleet is... well, still in their peaceful journey.
Chrono and Lindy contacts Yuuno in the Library, who gives them information regarding Cradle.
Oh, and one more thing. Arf stays with Yuuno, and makes her first official speech in Anime.

An even better description. Thanks, Thisguy!

Spoiler for spoiler:

- Hmm... Could this mean that maybe Agitp woule be really compatible with Signum later?

- Understood. And there are other squads after all.

- Judging by her condition, I'm worried if Vita can pull of a reactor-buster or not...

- And the fleet sure is taking their sweet time. At least Arf and Yuuno are showed.

[aers]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail remaining forces.

Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

An even better description. Thanks, Thisguy!

Spoiler for spoiler:

- Hmm... Could this mean that maybe Agitp woule be really compatible with Signum later?

- Understood. And there are other squads after all.

- Judging by her condition, I'm worried if Vita can pull of a reactor-buster or not...

- And the fleet sure is taking their sweet time. At least Arf and Yuuno are showed.

Spoiler for Err...:

Gundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo?

[aers]

Originally Posted by Kha

Spoiler for Err...:

Gundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo?

Spoiler for 21:

Er, something I forgot to mention - Vita only has 3 cartridges (iirc) left, which is what she was checking when she got impaled from behind.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Kha

Spoiler for Err...:

Gundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo?

In short, we (the OC Thread) is screwed if Vita pulls an Epyon.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by aers

Spoiler for 21:

Er, something I forgot to mention - Vita only has 3 cartridges (iirc) left, which is what she was checking when she got impaled from behind.

Holi Shyt.

[Thisguy]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

...

Also, Fate suggests the possibility of Jail controling Vivio, in such case, arresting Jail can be equal to stoping Cradle itself, without taking risk of going against Cradle at full and more quickly too.
So, arresting Jail may also have importance in that dire situation.

Not to mention that pretty much everyone except RF6 personnels have practically ZERO combat experience against SKJ, or Heavy-AMF-ing Drones.
So, yes, RF6 has to help them too, or Numbers and Drones will rip capital apart.

(Both are explained so in actual episode, although I'm quoting rather vaguely)

[FlareKnight]

Spoiler:

Well things are getting serious again. Vita's taken a bad hit from behind and now has to beat through all the opponents. But of course when Vita gets seriously pissed there isn't much in existence that can get in her way. Hope Vita can get out of this, she's really one likable character.

Teana is in pretty tough straights as well. I swear sneak attacks from above seem to be our dual-wielding numbers specialty. At any rate it's not going to be easy to hold out since her mobility is shot right now with that ankle. All she can do I guess is try to keep them occupied while everyone else does what they need to do.

Plus looks like the turning Lutecia to the good guys has begun in earnest. With Erio and Caro giving I'd assume the friendship stuff. Though I'd say they should hurry things up with Teana in a ridiculous amount of trouble.

Yeah I'd say Agito was just surprised to see a flame using knight. Maybe someone she could see herself joining with.

In terms of Vita's cartridges. I counted four in her hand but when she was speared from behind you do hear a sound like something dropping on the ground. So she might only have three in her hands, whatever is loaded in Eisen, and the one dropped on the floor to finish this off.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail's remaining forces.


Yes, but going after both doesn't do any good if they lose in either area as those forces they used where they lost could have been used to increase their chances of winning at the other location. It greatly increases the chances of losing in both areas. Then there's also that third objective they're after.

Actually, the Cradle is the time sensitive target, but there are several ways for getting at it. I'd actually go for the ground pounding team first, because for what little I'd know of Scarlietti's objective, he has another ace up his sleeve waiting for him at HQ, so I'd still stop that probe. Further, that probe is easy to stop so I can get that thorn out of my back with minimal time loss (if I use transporters - I know they've got transporters on Asura). With the aces, I can clean that up in about a minute or two. Then all the aces go and hit Zest while the Forwards mop up. Using N-square, Zest won't last more than a few minutes. After that, I can choose between HQ and Cradle.

[Gearhead]

Spoiler:

Thus the problem of the Land Force being completely unprepared because Regius was counting on the Einherjar replacing the need for 'special training' and 'special mages.'

1) Cradle needs to be stopped or slowed, requiring a team in that direction. 2) The Capital needs defense, requiring a team in that direction. 3) Someone needs to stop Jail before he gets away to pull some other stunt later, requiring a team over there too.

The Cradle is the biggest threat, so the heaviest hitters go there. The Capital already has some folks in place, and is a somewhat lesser problem, so they send more 'average powered' but specially trained personnel that way. And Jail already has someone outside his base, trying to kill his dudes, so the lightest amount of backup goes there.

These are desperation tactics, because the whole Bureau really HAS been backed into a corner.

[Nightengale]

I dunno, they seem to be setting up Vita for "I destroy all the enemies, but I'm too injured to reach the Reactor, fall down, makes everyone think she died, etc"

Then again, since there's like...100000 Drones inside and outside, it'd be strange if she falls and nothing comes up to stealth-kill her.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, the Cradle is the time sensitive target, but there are several ways for getting at it. I'd actually go for the ground pounding team first, because for what little I'd know of Scarlietti's objective, he has another ace up his sleeve waiting for him at HQ, so I'd still stop that probe. Further, that probe is easy to stop so I can get that thorn out of my back with minimal time loss (if I use transporters - I know they've got transporters on Asura). With the aces, I can clean that up in about a minute or two. Then all the aces go and hit Zest while the Forwards mop up. Using N-square, Zest won't last more than a few minutes. After that, I can choose between HQ and Cradle.

That said and done, notice that we're squeezing 11-14 characters a side into a single frame, thus diluting the character building.

Ah yes how reality limits storytelling. The reason why IRL usually is boring.

[Deathkillz]

zomg what just happened

Spoiler:

*heart attack*

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by aers

Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?

Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.

Use the transporters (instead of flying and having little conversations) to minimize time loss in retargeting and go for the targets in turn. You'd find that all the targets falling relatively easily in relatively short periods of time, leaving you the time and resources to go after the Cradle, perhaps the toughest target, in good time and nearly fresh. Any time and power loss will be greatly compensated by the fact you can have everyone on the job.

[Gearhead]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.

Problem:

1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio.
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them.
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.

Use the transporters (instead of flying and having little conversations) to minimize time loss in retargeting and go for the targets in turn. You'd find that all the targets falling relatively easily in relatively short periods of time, leaving you the time and resources to go after the Cradle, perhaps the toughest target, in good time and nearly fresh. Any time and power loss will be greatly compensated by the fact you can have everyone on the job.

That said, we don't know how long it takes to rearm the transporters, or what's the effective range of those things...

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by aers

Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?

If Zest is that important, then send enough forces to defeat him decisively. Otherwise don't bother at all.

There's no point in sending Fate after Jail if she can't capture or disable him. Instead a minimum of forces should be used to keep him there until the main forces are finished with the Cradle. Hayate would probably be ideal for that while unisoned with Rein. She doesn't even need to defeat the numbers. She just needs to keep Jail from moving. Fate and Signum probably could both be sent to the Cradle.

While RF6's mission may be clear, the mission is not dictating the objective. The objectives are being assigned haphazardly at best.