2010-12-05, 11:24 | Link #19424 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Battler D 's in da house!
That's the point, anyone could have done it. Kyrie just had the right reaction and timing. I'm not going to deny this would be rather dissatisfying, since you'd expect a massive real murder planned by a genius mastermind.
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2010-12-05, 11:29 | Link #19425 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Quote:
In other words, Kyrie is just waiting for Battler to return so she can kill everybody using Shannon's scheme. |
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2010-12-05, 11:42 | Link #19426 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Quote:
Kyrie knows beforehand though because Shannon asked her to persuade Rudolf to ask for Battler's return, in exchange, they could get more money. That's how part of my hypothesis differs from yours.
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2010-12-05, 11:44 | Link #19427 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The problem is, if Kyrie did plan this whole thing, was it even foreshadowed in the story. Sure, there's been theories about Kyrie before, but I don't think there's enough evidence in the games to claim Kyrie has planned any of this.
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2010-12-05, 11:46 | Link #19428 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Quote:
For this to work, then Shannon would have had to solve the Epitaph ahead of time to get all of the money. Then she would have sent an enormous amount of money to those bank accounts (which is possible, since EP2 has shown us that Shannon is allowed to leave Rokkenjima). I also think that Shannon sent out the message bottles to mimic "And Then There Were None", further intensifying the mystery atmosphere on Rokkenjima. |
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2010-12-05, 11:47 | Link #19429 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
Let's say that Clair doesn't know that she and Yasu are different people. If so, Will could solve the mystery Clair presents and still say that they're the same person. In fact, by the gold truth rule, they would be the same person within the stories. So whether Will guesses that they are different people or not, he would still be right to say that Lion and Yasu are the same person within the stories. Or, in other words, within the cat box, and both Clair and Lion are very clearly inside the cat box. Also, what if Will solved the mystery correctly but got reality wrong? We can trust Ryuukishi to make Will solve the mystery right, but remember that he lost his fight against Bern at the end, and it looks very much as though he didn't know Lion would died at the family conference before Bern said it (and remember, Clair definitely didn't know this, so even she cannot possibly know the full story). So, even if you want to say that Will absolutely solved the mystery correctly, you cannot say that he knew the full truth of Rokkenjima Prime.
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2010-12-05, 11:49 | Link #19430 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I don't think Shannon/Yasu ever actively tried to get Battler back.
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I don't think you can compare the two things. Criticisms about the volcano theory itself never actually bothered me, in fact I speculated about various disasters (including landslides and even remnants war bombs) and I even enforced discussions to understand what actually happened. What I always refused to accept was any suggestion that no incident ever happened or that it was some low scale incident like a boiler explosion. I'm not going to accept a claim that it was a far fetched idea and I was only lucky to understand it. There were overwhelming evidences about that. I still believe the real incident was caused by a volcano eruption, and more precisely by a phreatomagmatic eruption. However I'd never blame you for criticizing it. I only do that for things that someone who's truly trying to understand this story should see.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-12-05 at 12:07. |
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2010-12-05, 11:49 | Link #19431 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Just some circumstantial evidence like letters-in-the-bottle predicting the absence of Ange, EP4's phone call to Battler, Kyrie's unusual punishment for running away from Sumadera family.
But really, same question, in the question arc, are there enough evidence in the game to claim Shannon or George has planned these all? Quote:
Not so in Lion's world.
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2010-12-05, 11:57 | Link #19432 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Quote:
Also, remember that we were told that something was supposed to take place on Rokkenjima during 1986, and that Battler's presence made it all go wrong. So, I think we can say showed he up unexpectedly, meaning that Yasu didn't plan on having him back.
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2010-12-05, 11:58 | Link #19433 | ||
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Everything else (at least from my perspective) can fit into a plan that Shannon plots a real-life "And Then There Were None" which is hijacked, without anyone knowing, by one of the adults. I just picked Kyrie because she's crazy. Further support:
I mean, obviously you cannot figure out about Yasu before EP4. The baby from 19 years ago is not even MENTIONED until EP5. I think Ryukishi expected some people to catch on to the general idea that all the planned murders were faked and then somebody actually killed the "victims". Also that Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice (from EP2). Quote:
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2010-12-05, 12:07 | Link #19434 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Quote:
I really doubt Yasu planned to use the bomb, since that's basically what sealed the deal, and it was said that, had Battler not shown up, then something would have happened, but nothing big as in this massive tragedy.
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2010-12-05, 12:09 | Link #19435 | |||
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
For your second point, Beatrice is still waiting for Battler, but we know that she was waiting for Battler until the final moment, or Battler's return wouldn't have counted as a motive for the crimes. However, at the exact same time Kanon is created, "Shannon" gives up on loving Battler, and passes that love on to the completely fictional character Beatrice. In other words, it looks like Yasu has decided to put her love for Battler on the back-burner, and to try and ignore it unless Battler does return. Quote:
You couldn't tell a secret like this to a young girl and expect her to understand, much less keep it a secret to everyone. They couldn't tell her that she was Lion until she was old enough to keep secrets and understand what it would mean to be born a boy. Quote:
And that leads us to your second point. If Genji did present Lion to Kinzo, Kinzo would almost certainly want to make Lion the next head. After all, he's apparently been ranting about giving everything back to Beatrice for some time. Personally, I don't think it likely that Genji would work so hard to let Kinzo die in peace, and then ignore Kinzo's last request, which is probably the only request he even put in his will. I think it likely that, from Genji's perspective, it doesn't matter so much that Yasu isn't Lion. Unless he or Nanjo spills the beans, it's a cat box truth. As long as Yasu thinks she's Beatrice's son, Beatrice's memory will continue to rule the Ushiromiya family just as it would have if Yasu was Lion.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-12-05 at 12:36. |
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2010-12-05, 12:11 | Link #19436 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
It's probably something related to the inheritance, which in Lion's world was already decided.
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2010-12-05, 12:12 | Link #19437 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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From what I can guess, Yasu probably just gave up and was about to announce that he/she had found the gold and would become the successor to the head. For her plot with Battler, she was saving the announcement to get the adults to go along with her plan. However, since she thought he would never come back, she probably would just have said "I'm the new head of the Ushiromiya family". |
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2010-12-05, 12:18 | Link #19438 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Quote:
I could intrepret it as if Battler return one year earlier, without Rudolf bending the knee to ask for his return, then Shannon did not need to ask for Kyrie's help. So Kyrie could not plan ahead. If one year later, the financial distress of adults should have resolved, or because Krauss refused to lend money to his siblings, the other families lost significantly. The whole family was so broken that family meeting is no longer possible. So no killing. Or George got Shannon away after that year, so no killing either. Quote:
Perhaps I should ask more directly why you don't think Yasu want Battler to return on 1986 family meeting.
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2010-12-05, 12:23 | Link #19439 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Quote:
Actually, now that I think about it, the bank accounts have a special significance: Shannon set up the bank accounts, in advance, as future payment for the adults helping her with her plan. When Battler returns, she tells them "I have the money in the bank accounts. If you help me out, then they're yours." On Rokkenjima, the letters with the keys were waiting to be sent. The letters remained intact after the explosion and were mailed by one of the people that discovered the crime. However, since everybody dies from the bomb, the letters with the keys are forwarded on to the victims' families. EDIT: I personally think that Kyrie was tipped off ahead of time. In order for this scheme to work, then nobody would be able to know about the plan until the night of. However, Kyrie would need SOME idea of Shannon's plan for her to actually kill people. |
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2010-12-05, 12:47 | Link #19440 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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And couldn't Shannon really be the murderer ?
After all, it would be easy to her to commit the murders (thanks to her multiple identities) and, as Yasu, could be himself interested by the inheritance (as the son of Kinzo and the woman he truly loves). Yasu could have a STRONG hate for both Natsuhi and Rosa. Rosa has killed his mother and Natsuhi has deprived him from all his rights to the inheritance by trying to kill him. Shannon could also hate Eva for the way she treats her and keeps her away from George (maybe she doesn't really like George but that she sees him as a way to become a real Ushiromiya, to "be someone"). And, most of all, she could hate Kyrie and Rudolph because of their quick marriage which was the reason why Battler was absent one year after their promise. Because I don't really imagine the parents going along with a "plan" to test Battler. Most of them despise Shannon and Kanon as furnitures. But yes, I agree that one of the adults could have discovered what she was doing (without Shannon actually knowing of it) and could have decided to go along with it, planning to use it as a way to gain the inheritance. |
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