[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Disregarding the stuff from the meta-part since it's meta and those theatre scenes have a lot of weirdness anyway...I don't really think that first quote from Berune definitively implies that Shannon's a different person. Yasu STARTED to mention the witch, then Berune cut in with a silly impression of Kinzo and then said "Don't tell me you believe in that too [like Kinzo does], Shannon-chan?"

Well, that assumes that Berune would even call Yasu "Shannon-chan", but she's not one of the original batch of servants so it would possibly make sense that the nickname 'Yasu' didn't stick when the new servants came in. Well, heck, we know it has to have been phased out eventually since everyone calls her Shannon in the present. (I wonder how Asune and Berune usually address Yasu, if they do at all? Can someone look through the script and check?)

Berune and Asune call Yasu as Yasu, both in real world and in the meta world
A few lines:

Real world
「まーたヤスに、鍵をこんなところに放り出さないでーって怒られるところでしたー。私、置きっ放しにして忘 れたりなんかー、しませんからー。」
＜ベルゼ
[Belze]Yasu was almost scolding me that I shouldn't leave keys in a place like this. I'd never put something down and forget about it

Meta
「あれはきっと、ヤスの悪戯、うぅん、仕返しでしょ。」
＜アスモ
[Asmo]That was surely a Yasu's prank. No, more like retaliation.


Also, there's this line:
鐘音さんは、また無造作に、ベッドの上に鍵束を投げ出して、鼻歌混じりにお掃除を始める... 。
Again, Berune-san carelessly tossed her keys bunch on the bed, and starts to clean while humming...

いくら注意しても、改めてくれない。@私のことを、ヤスヤスと馬鹿にしてるから、私が何を言っても耳を貸し てくれない......。
No matter how much I warn her, she doesn't change her ways. She's always making fun of me and calling me Yasu, so she won't listen to anything I tell her......


I guess Berune calls Yasu as Yasu

[Drifloon]

Hm, weird. I guess we have to just go with the unreliable narrator thing, then. That or she randomly uses both names.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Berune and Asune call Yasu as Yasu, both in real world and in the meta world
A few lines:

Real world
「まーたヤスに、鍵をこんなところに放り出さないでーって怒られるところでしたー。私、置きっ放しにして忘 れたりなんかー、しませんからー。」
＜ベルゼ
[Belze]Yasu was almost scolding me that I shouldn't leave keys in a place like this. I'd never put something down and forget about it

Meta
「あれはきっと、ヤスの悪戯、うぅん、仕返しでしょ。」
＜アスモ
[Asmo]That was surely a Yasu's prank. No, more like retaliation.


Also, there's this line:
鐘音さんは、また無造作に、ベッドの上に鍵束を投げ出して、鼻歌混じりにお掃除を始める... 。
Again, Berune-san carelessly tossed her keys bunch on the bed, and starts to clean while humming...

いくら注意しても、改めてくれない。@私のことを、ヤスヤスと馬鹿にしてるから、私が何を言っても耳を貸し てくれない......。
No matter how much I warn her, she doesn't change her ways. She's always making fun of me and calling me Yasu, so she won't listen to anything I tell her......


I guess Berune calls Yasu as Yasu

Blessed names aren't used all the time.

Boys and girls, who've lived in isolation and through various trials, sometimes feel as though their real first and last names are a bond that's worth holding onto.
So, most of the Fukuin children hate their '‰¹' names, and call each other by nicknames based on their original names.
Of course, this is only privately. When in the presence of the House Director or other important people, only the 'blessed names' are used.
On the job, the 'blessed names' are used. And off the job, the informal nicknames are used.
Everyone is very used to living with two names like this, so they're all familiar with how to use them.

The fact that they would use Yasu's normal name and then Shannon's blessed name is weird in itself as they should go for both with the normal name or for both with the blessed name.

Interesting enough I think calling Yasu 'Shannon-chan' can constitute as teasing. Yasu is technically a senpai in terms of working there longer but she's likely younger than them (the incident is apparently prior to her meeting with Battler therefore before she officially had 10 years and other servants were hired when older).
'-chan' can be a suffix you use for someone you're fond of but also for a child.
If they're using her blessed name they're referring to her as 'Yasu, the worker' and therefore as she works there by more time than them, they should be more respectful, I think.

Also, even though the scene seems meta, this doesn't mean they can't lie to the detective. Erika successfully deceived Battler into giving her some tape, Beato told Battler the homuncolous story, Ange said her name was Gretel...
Really, the meta isn't insurance a story is reliable.
After all the narrator is still Clair and Will wasn't there when the scene took place so he didn't personally witnessed it.

I tend to think that Clair was more or less thruthful in some things as she wanted to tell her story and if she had made up everything... well, it would have been pointless, but that she wasn't above deception in some parts (like when she described how Gaap magically took control of her and magically made the key disappear).

[theacefrehley]

The fact that they would use Yasu's normal name and then Shannon's blessed name is weird in itself as they should go for both with the normal name or for both with the blessed name.

In the very same scene, Shannon uses 'Asune-san' and Yasu uses 'Berune-san', but they don't use 'Yasu' there to refer to Yasu (they use nothing). The fact it's mentioned they call her Yasu all the time reflects lack of respect. And if there's not a boss figure around, they can disrespect Yasu and get away with it.




What I mean with all that is: If one can create a completely imaginary person, Shannon, it is also possible for a real person to exist fulfilling that role, with slight differences between the actual person and the person in the story (name, look). Because there are hints for both.

And since there are hints for both theories, and we have the always useful tool of 'unreliable narrator', we can always twist and distort the hints in favor of one side to fit the other side.
Specially because it's a short part of the story, without much hints to narrow down to one theory or the other.

I think it's a matter of picking the theory you like, and cherrypick the hints to fit it, and disregard what doesn't fit as deception (like when they mention Shannon and Yasu in the same line).


It's similar to the Stranger|Ikuko vs Yasu|Ikuko, to some degree.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Also, even though the scene seems meta, this doesn't mean they can't lie to the detective. Erika successfully deceived Battler into giving her some tape, Beato told Battler the homuncolous story, Ange said her name was Gretel...
Really, the meta isn't insurance a story is reliable.
After all the narrator is still Clair and Will wasn't there when the scene took place so he didn't personally witnessed it.

I tend to think that Clair was more or less thruthful in some things as she wanted to tell her story and if she had made up everything... well, it would have been pointless, but that she wasn't above deception in some parts (like when she described how Gaap magically took control of her and magically made the key disappear).

But here's the thing: What purpose does she have to outright lie, rather than merely speaking in symbols and metaphor? I mean Will uses metaphor when answering her, but he's not making shit up, he's just being poetically evasive to answer her without stating things outright.

Clair is in control of these scenes, and I think the point is to portray everything in this creation of Yasu as a man-behind-the-mask in the manner in which Yasu experiences the world. It's the literal "heart" of things, so we're getting not dry facts, but emotional truth.

But that still has to be true. If there's something going on with Shannon, it's because this should have some bearing on Yasu's worldview and should be something which is true in some fashion to him/her. In other words, people shouldn't randomly be talking about his/her imaginary friends as if they exist unless they either do exist, he/she's distorting their words to make them exist, or there's some other reconcilable reason behind the behavior.

Given that we know why Yasu engages in other forms of behavior, such as performing tricks and justifying it as "magic," we ought to be able to reach from his/her narrative and Clair's statements some coherent-to-Yasu rationale for why those lines and statements exist.

Remember, the servant characters themselves have no reason to make up something that isn't real. So either they've been misled, they're telling the truth, or Yasu's mode of thinking necessitates altering their dialogue for a reason which makes sense to Clair and won't hide the heart, since that's what she wants somebody to understand.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Renall

But here's the thing: What purpose does she have to outright lie, rather than merely speaking in symbols and metaphor? I mean Will uses metaphor when answering her, but he's not making shit up, he's just being poetically evasive to answer her without stating things outright.

Clair is in control of these scenes, and I think the point is to portray everything in this creation of Yasu as a man-behind-the-mask in the manner in which Yasu experiences the world. It's the literal "heart" of things, so we're getting not dry facts, but emotional truth.

But that still has to be true. If there's something going on with Shannon, it's because this should have some bearing on Yasu's worldview and should be something which is true in some fashion to him/her. In other words, people shouldn't randomly be talking about his/her imaginary friends as if they exist unless they either do exist, he/she's distorting their words to make them exist, or there's some other reconcilable reason behind the behavior.

Given that we know why Yasu engages in other forms of behavior, such as performing tricks and justifying it as "magic," we ought to be able to reach from his/her narrative and Clair's statements some coherent-to-Yasu rationale for why those lines and statements exist.

Remember, the servant characters themselves have no reason to make up something that isn't real. So either they've been misled, they're telling the truth, or Yasu's mode of thinking necessitates altering their dialogue for a reason which makes sense to Clair and won't hide the heart, since that's what she wants somebody to understand.

The moment Gaap started to steal things from Yasu, it was clear that she "added" some things to reality that don't physically exist. I stand by the "classic" version, that this Shanon is not real at all and is just the "imaginary perfect servant". Some people call that "delusional fantasies", while others call it "imagination that broadens the horizon".

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Berune and Asune call Yasu as Yasu, both in real world and in the meta world

いくら注意しても、改めてくれない。@私のことを、ヤスヤスと馬鹿にしてるから、私が何を言っても耳を貸し てくれない......。
No matter how much I warn her, she doesn't change her ways. She's always making fun of me and calling me Yasu, so she won't listen to anything I tell her......


I guess Berune calls Yasu as Yasu

Berune can't call Yasu, Yasu all the time as we're told that blessed names must be used around certain people.

So, most of the Fukuin children hate their '‰¹' names, and call each other by nicknames based on their original names.
Of course, this is only privately. When in the presence of the House Director or other important people, only the 'blessed names' are used.
On the job, the 'blessed names' are used. And off the job, the informal nicknames are used.

So Berune can call Yasu as such only privately.
However we know that Yasu didn't like that nickname so she likely asked her not to use it. Period. Maybe she would have preferred to be called Sayo or Yasuda or whatever. Yet Berune continued to use it but she could have done it only privately.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

In the very same scene, Shannon uses 'Asune-san' and Yasu uses 'Berune-san', but they don't use 'Yasu' there to refer to Yasu (they use nothing). The fact it's mentioned they call her Yasu all the time reflects lack of respect. And if there's not a boss figure around, they can disrespect Yasu and get away with it.

If Yasu=Shannon they used 'Shannon', Yasu blessed name.
The lack of respect isn't in calling Yasu as such always but in calling her Yasu when she doesn't like it.
Even if you were to apply the 'Shannon-chan' name to an extra person it would still be unpolite to refer to Shannon, who's older as a worker and as a person as '-chan'.

And note that Yasu had a blessed name right from the beginning:

She called me, not by the blessed name given to me by the Fukuin House, but by that unblessed name.

Also when Berune and Asune arrives this is what is said:

"All of the children who came from the Fukuin House were highly individualistic. They polished that attitude while they worked as servants, and eventually grew to be servants that would not shame the Ushiromiya family."
"However, encouraging this behavior was the role of the more experienced servants. ......Since I was the only one with experience, it was my responsibility to guide them."

If Shannon existed Yasu wouldn't be the only one with the experience.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

What I mean with all that is: If one can create a completely imaginary person, Shannon, it is also possible for a real person to exist fulfilling that role, with slight differences from the actual person and the person in the story (name, look). Because there are hints for both.

If the Shannon the story talked about really existed there would be no need to put so many hints that it actually didn't exist.

Shannon goes at the school dormitory with Yasu but actually only Yasu is allowed to go to school.
Shannon shares the room with Yasu but actually Yasu's room is solely Yasu's.
Yasu's blessed name is Shannon as Shannon.
Yasu defines herself the only exception to servants leaving the island but since Shannon supposedly stayed that would make two of them.
The servants say goodbye to Yasu and not to Shannon although Shannon supposedly get along with everyone.
Yasu is the only one with the experience although Shannon should have it too.
Berune begins losing things (the key is apparently what persuaded her in the end there was a witch) but she only suspect Yasu of hiding them not Shannon although she could have been an accomplice as she too believes in the witch and was supposedly Yasu's friend.

And so on.

So it's very possible there was a model for Shannon but really, the Shannon the story talks about seems more fictional than everything else.

Originally Posted by Renall

But here's the thing: What purpose does she have to outright lie, rather than merely speaking in symbols and metaphor? I mean Will uses metaphor when answering her, but he's not making shit up, he's just being poetically evasive to answer her without stating things outright.

Clair is in control of these scenes, and I think the point is to portray everything in this creation of Yasu as a man-behind-the-mask in the manner in which Yasu experiences the world. It's the literal "heart" of things, so we're getting not dry facts, but emotional truth.

But that still has to be true. If there's something going on with Shannon, it's because this should have some bearing on Yasu's worldview and should be something which is true in some fashion to him/her. In other words, people shouldn't randomly be talking about his/her imaginary friends as if they exist unless they either do exist, he/she's distorting their words to make them exist, or there's some other reconcilable reason behind the behavior.

Given that we know why Yasu engages in other forms of behavior, such as performing tricks and justifying it as "magic," we ought to be able to reach from his/her narrative and Clair's statements some coherent-to-Yasu rationale for why those lines and statements exist.

Remember, the servant characters themselves have no reason to make up something that isn't real. So either they've been misled, they're telling the truth, or Yasu's mode of thinking necessitates altering their dialogue for a reason which makes sense to Clair and won't hide the heart, since that's what she wants somebody to understand.

It doesn't look like Yasu was present when that scene took place so Yasu/Clair could interpreatate it as she preferred.

Berune asked Yasu, the servant she didn't respect then, as she grew to respect her, she asked her again but, this time, she probably called her Shannon, quitting her unrespectful way.
After all the whole talk shows how Berune grew to respect and trust Yasu. If she did so in the end she probably quit calling her Yasu and acknowledged her as Shannon.
In a way this also signals the transformation from Yasu to Shannon.

So it's true that Berune asked Yasu and asked Shannon... although they technically were the same person. Umineko is filled with those stuffs so I'm not too surprised by them.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If Yasu=Shannon they used 'Shannon', Yasu blessed name.
The lack of respect isn't in calling Yasu as such always but in calling her Yasu when she doesn't like it.
Even if you were to apply the 'Shannon-chan' name to an extra person it would still be unpolite to refer to Shannon, who's older as a worker and as a person as '-chan'.

And note that Yasu had a blessed name right from the beginning:

It's normal for female friends to call each other 'chan' and we only know that Yasu is way younger. Shannon and the stakes could be around the same age (maybe 2 years apart, or zero). (My memory could be failing here, correct me if I'm wrong here). And there's no boss figure around, so they could drop formalities.
And being unpolite outside of Genji's or Natsuhi's view doesn't seem to be a problem for Asune and Berune. It's mentioned how they drop the 'good girl' act once the superiors are not there.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

1-Shannon goes at the school dormitory with Yasu but actually only Yasu is allowed to go to school.
2-Shannon shares the room with Yasu but actually Yasu's room is solely Yasu's.
3-Yasu's blessed name is Shannon as Shannon.
4-Yasu defines herself the only exception to servants leaving the island but since Shannon supposedly stayed that would make two of them.
5-The servants say goodbye to Yasu and not to Shannon although Shannon supposedly get along with everyone.
6-Yasu is the only one with the experience although Shannon should have it too.
7-Berune begins losing things (the key is apparently what persuaded her in the end there was a witch) but she only suspect Yasu of hiding them not Shannon although she could have been an accomplice as she too believes in the witch and was supposedly Yasu's friend.

1-From what I remember it's not a school dormitory. Which part is that?
In the script, it's called 新島の使用人寮 (Niijima's servant dormitory), and there are scenes of the servants in the dormitory talking about Genji, Natsuhi, servant work.

2- I mentioned other possibilities in earlier posts about the room being actually shared

3- Same here. Shannon might not be the old servant's actual name. She retconned the actual story and changed the name and looks (this is as bogus as an imaginary friend) in a dramatic preparation to the transformation of Yasu into Shannon

4- Ok.
5- They also don't say goodbye to Kumasawa (who seems to be very friendly with them), and their bosses, Natsuhi and Genji. Or maybe they did, and it was just not shown
6-Ok
7-They also don't suspect Kumasawa, who is into this Witch thing. I don't think this is an issue. Yasu is an easy scapegoat.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

It's normal for female friends to call each other 'chan' and we only know that Yasu is way younger. Shannon and the stakes could be around the same age (maybe 2 years apart, or zero). (My memory could be failing here, correct me if I'm wrong here). And there's no boss figure around, so they could drop formalities.
And being unpolite outside of Genji's or Natsuhi's view doesn't seem to be a problem for Asune and Berune. It's mentioned how they drop the 'good girl' act once the superiors are not there.

Shannon though is using -san. It makes me doubt they're friends.
(also, although Shannon is supposed to get along with everyone she only seems friend with Yasu. The previous group of girls didn't say bye to her, even though the scene describes her as being close to Yasu when they said bye to her and Shannon doesn't show much apprecciation to them)

But they only drop formalities... halfway.
They still use a blessed name instead than Shannon's true name yet they go and attach to it a -chan when Shannon uses -san for them.

-san wasn't mandatory for Shannon as she's the senior worker.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

1-From what I remember it's not a school dormitory. Which part is that?
In the script, it's called 新島の使用人寮 (Niijima's servant dormitory), and there are scenes of the servants in the dormitory talking about Genji, Natsuhi, servant work.

I'll have to re-check the scene then as I remember the dormitory as being the one tied to the school. I might remember wrong though.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

5- They also don't say goodbye to Kumasawa (who seems to be very friendly with them), and their bosses, Natsuhi and Genji. Or maybe they did, and it was just not shown

They weren't described as being there, Shannon was.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

7-They also don't suspect Kumasawa, who is into this Witch thing. I don't think this is an issue. Yasu is an easy scapegoat.

It would be harder to suspect of Kumasawa as she doesn't really seem to actively work with them and therefore would have less chances to make things disappear though yes, they should have considered her too as we know she was Yasu's accomplice in the prank to Jessica.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Shannon though is using -san. It makes me doubt they're friends.
(also, although Shannon is supposed to get along with everyone she only seems friend with Yasu. The previous group of girls didn't say bye to her, even though the scene describes her as being close to Yasu when they said bye to her and Shannon doesn't show much apprecciation to them)

But they only drop formalities... halfway.
They still use a blessed name instead than Shannon's true name yet they go and attach to it a -chan when Shannon uses -san for them.

-san wasn't mandatory for Shannon as she's the senior worker.
.

The point is, friends or not, those two drop their act once they are alone, and being half or full impolite is the same
And even if shannon doesnt see them as friends, the two can treat her as such, whether for being naive or to tease her, bully

Being a senior is no guarantee of respect from those two, if there are no bosses around

Poor behaviour from those two doesnt necessarily mean shannon is imaginary and they are talking to yasu

[Kiltias]

Please take your time and try to read this cause I am really mindeffed by how Ryukishi implemented the Symbolism and Esoteric view of Chess into Umineko.

The board game symbolizes the eternal fight against Spirit and matter; good-evil; values-ego; Being-Nonbeing.The black and white squares that alternate on the board and on which we move the pieces show us that step by step we find ourselves in the position to take decisions.

We must decide ourselves every moment if we choose the Being or if we deny it. The white and the black pieces are face to face. The two opposite forces dispute their fight outside and inside us.We must recognize that the interior fight between good and malign intelligent forces is found also outside us, in the world, in Cosmos, and they combat ceaselessly...

there are 8 squares in one direction and 8 in the other that give the Cabalistic number 8x8=64, 6+4=10 that is the arcane nr. 10 ‘The Wheel of Destiny’. In order to defeat the Samsara the nr. 8 arcane comes in our way – the sword and the balance; the initiatory tests.

Arcanum No.10 of the Tarot is the „Wheel of Fortune”, is the same Wheel of Samsara, the tragic wheel that symbolizes the Law of Ancient Return.When death arrives, the Egos enter into the Infernal Worlds and others return into a new womb; the Ego is composed of many entities, some of them reincorporate into animal or plant organisms, and others into human wombs, thus, the Ego returns into a new organism.

Arcanum No. 8 represents the "Judgment", No. 8 is the Number of Job, of ordeals and pain; it is represented by the sword that corresponds to the esoteric. This number represents the life and sacrifice of Job which is the path that takes the Initiate to the Second Birth.The Arcanum No. 8 of the Tarot is a woman with a sword in her hand, before the Scale of the Cosmic Justice. Only she can hand the Sword to the Magus; without a woman no Initiate can receive the Sword. There is the Eve-Venus, the instinctive woman; the Venus-Eve, the noble woman of home. There is also the Venus-Urania, the woman initiated into the Great Mysteries and finally we affirm the existence of the Urania-Venus, the female adept, the fully realized woman.

On the board the pieces are disposed symmetrically – they indicate us the order in the interior work. According to their order the rook, the knight and the bishop indicate us very important aspects on the road.

The rook represents the fact of watching, of observing our inner world.
The only move in which the King can move more is called Castling – big or small; and here he makes a change with the Rook.
this as a symbol in which the Being and the auto observation demonstrate their co-operation.

The Knight represents the Divine Law which we have to take into account in all our actions.Its counterpart, are the mechanical laws and rules that condition us.

The pawns represent the neophytes of the road – men and women that launch themselves to conquer the soul.

The King represents our being for which the battle is given. He is anyway capable to take only a single step in any direction. Through this is shown that in order to reach the being, which distributed the powers in its derivations, all these must be regained step by step.Its counterpart is the force and the intelligence of the Beast, profoundly hidden inside us – represented by the black king.

The Queen, (The Inner and Particular Divine Mother of each one) is the most powerful on the board game, has full freedom of movement in any direction, is the most valuable – like it is shown in esotericism: the Fire of the Divine Mother, without which we can’t destroy the evil in us.

The bishop represents the erotic force. It can cross the board diagonally and its moves form the symbolic X. The Cross or the X calls us to crucify the egotistical wishes

The two opposite forces dispute their fight outside and inside us. We are familiar to our allies’ antithesis from the Works of Master S.A.W. – the Great Beat; the Kundartiguador organ; the egotistical powers – all those forces that feed on sexual energies badly canalized.

We can win, we can lose or there is a third possibility: dawn called TIE. What are we transmitted through that? That it is possible that nor the Being, neither the Beast wins and that happens when we devolve, when we descend in Hell. We lose the soul, the Being gives up the Soul because it is irrecoverable, and the Beast loses because it will disintegrate in Hell. The new evolution of the essence will be very far from the Father and in the same time with the reintegration in the human kingdom, the Beast will again become step by step human.

So the great fight returns on the board, only a new game will decide the victory of one of them.

The aspect that appears regarding the pawns is interesting: easily and hardly they can reach to the last row but if they get there they retrieve the Queen – they transform in a piece with the greatest power.


6 pieces – allusion to 32 pieces = 5 auto realisation, according to transfinite mathematics ∞+∞=5 (the book ‘Tarot and Kabala’, Arcanum Nr. 5).

Even if the rules are the same, the board and the pieces the same, every game is different, offers infinite possibilities. This shows us that the road is particular for each one even if we all have the same flaws, we are governed by the same laws.

Arcanum No. 5 of the Tarot is Initiation, Demonstration, Teaching, Karmic Law, Philosophy, Science, Art.
Life has begun to flow from the outer towards the inner; we are faced with the dilemma of To Be or Not To Be; we need to define ourselves as Angels or Demons,Eagles or Reptiles and to confront our own destiny.
The Hierarch of the Arcanum No. 5, the Jackal of the Jackals is the Lord of the Archons of destiny, he is Anubis, the Jackal-headed God. The Temple of Anubis is the Temple of the Lords of Karma. Anubis carries the books of Karma in the Underworld. In this Tribunal only the terror of Love and Justice rules.

http://www.vopus.org/en/gnosis/unive...-of-chess.html

[Kuroberus]

In the Requiem of the Golden Witch Tea Party, Bernkastel said in red that "This is all truth-". She didn't finish what she was saying. So I believe that it's not the truth at all?

And the part where Bernkastel said to Clair that she(Clair) made some message bottles about the incident which Eva used for the catbox. Doesn't that mean that Yasu is alive since Clair is Yasu?

And the part where Bernkastel shows Lion's death in the fragment where H-SH-e is killed by Kyrie. Since Lion is Beatrice, doesn't that mean that nobody would tell them about the clock triggering the explosion, the card number digits, etc?

[AuraTwilight]

And the part where Bernkastel said to Clair that she(Clair) made some message bottles about the incident which Eva used for the catbox. Doesn't that mean that Yasu is alive since Clair is Yasu?

How does any of that mean that Yasu is alive? The fact that Eva is dead in all of them implies they were written before the accident.

And the part where Bernkastel shows Lion's death in the fragment where H-SH-e is killed by Kyrie. Since Lion is Beatrice, doesn't that mean that nobody would tell them about the clock triggering the explosion, the card number digits, etc?

I'm pretty sure something was mentioned to the effect of Kinzo or Genji telling them when they solved it, iirc.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

In the Requiem of the Golden Witch Tea Party, Bernkastel said in red that "This is all truth-". She didn't finish what she was saying. So I believe that it's not the truth at all?

We cannot say whether it is the truth or not. Like she admitted in Episode 8, "the truth is not limited to this depiction". By several elements one can assume that her solution is close to what the events on the island were, but not necessarily the ultimate truth beyond truths.

And the part where Bernkastel shows Lion's death in the fragment where H-SH-e is killed by Kyrie. Since Lion is Beatrice, doesn't that mean that nobody would tell them about the clock triggering the explosion, the card number digits, etc?

That would technically be a Kakera where Beatrice does not exist. Bernkastel's point was that even if he had never become the witch Beatrice, the chance of him surviving beyond October 5th is incredibly low, making it impossible for him to ever reach a Happy End.
This event happened in the Kakera of Lion, not the Kakera that her solution was based on. So if the explosion still happened it is very likely that Genji was the one who triggered it in order to protect the familiy's honor.

[Renall]

Bernkastel's logic is full of eight kinds of holes though, because once she starts reaching beyond the catbox Beatrice established, literally anything is possible. There could be a world where Yasu went to the orphanage and was adopted by Daddy Warbucks. There could be a world where World War III broke out in 1953 and she was never born. There could be a world where everything was the same except Kinzo never built that goddamn clock bomb.

For Bern to say "the combination of you = happy and you = not dead after a hilariously horrible Oct. 5 massacre doesn't exist" is disingenuous to the point that any idiot looking at her abilities and powers should realize she's lying.

Look at it this way: To say something has a remote chance of happening depends upon the parameters that exist. Like, I'm currently sitting in my office and it's early in the day. Some things are exceedingly unlikely to happen to me today, like that I will be on a certain street corner in Timbuktu within 24 hours. It is theoretically possible that I can reach Mali within a day. However, there is no chance whatsoever that I will be on Mars within 24 hours, because it takes months to get there even if I had a rocket ready to send me on my way.

But if we alter the parameters of the story, if we "reach outside the catbox," it's not impossible at all. We just have to imagine a world in which (1) NASA is pursuing manned spaceflight to Mars, (2) I became an astronaut, and (3) I happen to be on a mission that's orbiting Mars this morning. When you change the parameters that much, suddenly the chance of me being on Mars today is entirely plausible.

By changing the parameters of the catbox, Bernkastel creates a scenario where all possibility is certainty. Does a Fragment exist where Lion was accepted, is happy, and no one dies? Yes. In fact, an infinite number of such worlds exist, provided I'm allowed to change the input parameters the way she did.

Is a happy ending possible within Beatrice's catbox? Maybe, maybe not. But it's only because we've fixed the parameters of Beatrice's scenario somewhat that we can speculate on that. If we allow ourselves to reach beyond that, then it doesn't actually matter.

To say "in a world that's absolutely nothing like yours, the same shit will always happen" is flat-out idiocy on Bern's part and the only way to reconcile it with her characterization is to assume that she is just mean-spiritedly lying. But if she is, everyone she explains this to is stupid and unimaginative. Well, I guess technically "stupid and unimaginative" sort of sums up Ange at times.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

In the Requiem of the Golden Witch Tea Party, Bernkastel said in red that "This is all truth-". She didn't finish what she was saying. So I believe that it's not the truth at all?

Bern said later she was going to say "This is all truth 'of a sort, but not necessarily true." which can mean everything and nothing as it doesn't confirm nor denied things could have happened like this.

My guess is that Bern wanted to say something like this:
"This is true in this gameboard, it might be true in Prime but it can also be false, who knows?"

Of course since you can use red to refer just to the gameboard she could have said "This is all truth" in red without problems and without the need to specify that she was talking about the gameboard.

In short... we've no idea if it's true.

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

And the part where Bernkastel said to Clair that she(Clair) made some message bottles about the incident which Eva used for the catbox. Doesn't that mean that Yasu is alive since Clair is Yasu?

The great problem is: did she make them prior or after the incident?
The novel said the games were done by Beato/Yasu while she waited for Battler's return and then tossed in the sea. Unless you can prove they were made after the incident they can't be used as proof.

And there had been a lot of debate about when the messages were made and so far there isn't a consensus so I guess unless the manga will reveal something more the fandom's going to stay divided and this means that, as in EP 5, a truth won't be chosen.

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

And the part where Bernkastel shows Lion's death in the fragment where H-SH-e is killed by Kyrie. Since Lion is Beatrice, doesn't that mean that nobody would tell them about the clock triggering the explosion, the card number digits, etc?

That fragment didn't show how things will go after Lion's death.
The point was to show Clair she would never reach a happy ending, not even there.
For all we know it's possible that Lion was the only one shoot among the cousins while the others managed to save themselves.
After all in the version with no Lion Battler's fate is left unknown and here there's the scene in which Lion and Will escape which could mean someone saved Lion...
Or we could simply have had no explosion at all.
It's not really important in that fragment because it's purpose is merely to show Lion wouldn't reach a happy ending.

And anyway, Kinzo handed the riddle to the siblings who solved it so it's possible Kinzo or Genji informed them about the bomb.

So... hum... we can't really say...

[GreyZone]

Beatrice cannot leave Rokkenjima. She is "trapped" there. And if Yasu says it is like that, then she means it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Bernkastel's logic is full of eight kinds of holes though, because once she starts reaching beyond the catbox Beatrice established, literally anything is possible. There could be a world where Yasu went to the orphanage and was adopted by Daddy Warbucks. There could be a world where World War III broke out in 1953 and she was never born. There could be a world where everything was the same except Kinzo never built that goddamn clock bomb.

For Bern to say "the combination of you = happy and you = not dead after a hilariously horrible Oct. 5 massacre doesn't exist" is disingenuous to the point that any idiot looking at her abilities and powers should realize she's lying.

Look at it this way: To say something has a remote chance of happening depends upon the parameters that exist. Like, I'm currently sitting in my office and it's early in the day. Some things are exceedingly unlikely to happen to me today, like that I will be on a certain street corner in Timbuktu within 24 hours. It is theoretically possible that I can reach Mali within a day. However, there is no chance whatsoever that I will be on Mars within 24 hours, because it takes months to get there even if I had a rocket ready to send me on my way.

But if we alter the parameters of the story, if we "reach outside the catbox," it's not impossible at all. We just have to imagine a world in which (1) NASA is pursuing manned spaceflight to Mars, (2) I became an astronaut, and (3) I happen to be on a mission that's orbiting Mars this morning. When you change the parameters that much, suddenly the chance of me being on Mars today is entirely plausible.

By changing the parameters of the catbox, Bernkastel creates a scenario where all possibility is certainty. Does a Fragment exist where Lion was accepted, is happy, and no one dies? Yes. In fact, an infinite number of such worlds exist, provided I'm allowed to change the input parameters the way she did.

Is a happy ending possible within Beatrice's catbox? Maybe, maybe not. But it's only because we've fixed the parameters of Beatrice's scenario somewhat that we can speculate on that. If we allow ourselves to reach beyond that, then it doesn't actually matter.

To say "in a world that's absolutely nothing like yours, the same shit will always happen" is flat-out idiocy on Bern's part and the only way to reconcile it with her characterization is to assume that she is just mean-spiritedly lying. But if she is, everyone she explains this to is stupid and unimaginative. Well, I guess technically "stupid and unimaginative" sort of sums up Ange at times.

I think that the trick Bern used is that she searched for truths trapped in the Rokkenjima catbox.
Therefore any future of Lion that didn't end up trapped in the catbox created by the island's explosion was discharged.
Funny enough this would means that among infinite possibilities if Yasu manages to become Lion she/he has only 1 chance to reach a bad ending on Rokkenjima and have the truth of it being sealed in the catbox...

In short except for that specific game board every Lion gameboard won't end with the island being blown up and no one knowing the truth (if this is a happy ending or not is debatable. It can be that character X will kill everyone minus 1 person and this person will reveal the truth of the catbox which will be confirmed by the police, basically stopping that Rokkenjima from becoming a catbox but not assuring it'll be a happy end...)

In short she's using the same trick she used with Ange. She can't find a world in which Ange's parents returned to that Ange although it can be there's a world where Ange's parents returned to another Ange

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

There could be a world where Yasu went to the orphanage and was adopted by Daddy Warbucks. There could be a world where World War III broke out in 1953 and she was never born. There could be a world where everything was the same except Kinzo never built that goddamn clock bomb.

I think Bern is not that far off when it comes to Lion or Yasu's chances at happiness due to some factors that have to be in place for Yasu or Lion to even exist.

1. WWII must have happened in a way that lead up to Beatrice Castiglioni reaching Japan and meeting Kinzo
2. Kinzo must have gotten the gold from Castiglioni to buy Rokkenjima, build Kuwadorian and get his daughter pregnant.

In both cases the mystery of the gold exists which lead to several very likely events. Like his children searching after the gold and the situation boiling up to a critical point. Whether Yasu exists as the hidden heir or Lion exists as the obvious heir, it does not seem to change the fates of the siblings to a great deal.

I think what Bern was implying is that in a series of events that leads to the existence of Ushiromiya Lion (who might or might not carry that name) the situation of the Ushiromiya family is so full of tragedy that a bloody result is almost given. The fact alone that for him/her to exist Kinzo needs to sleep with his daughter creates the necessary tension.

She also never said that there is no world where "Lion" exists in some form and is happy, just that the chances of finding one are close to zero.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

And the part where Bernkastel shows Lion's death in the fragment where H-SH-e is killed by Kyrie. Since Lion is Beatrice, doesn't that mean that nobody would tell them about the clock triggering the explosion, the card number digits, etc?

As stated, Kinzo or Genji couldn inform about the clock.
You're right, though, in that without Beatrice, there IS no bank card or PIN number to even give to anyone.

Originally Posted by Renall

To say "in a world that's absolutely nothing like yours, the same shit will always happen" is flat-out idiocy on Bern's part and the only way to reconcile it with her characterization is to assume that she is just mean-spiritedly lying. But if she is, everyone she explains this to is stupid and unimaginative.

Of course she was being a mean-spirited liar. I thought that's how that scene was SUPPOSED to read.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think Bern is not that far off when it comes to Lion or Yasu's chances at happiness due to some factors that have to be in place for Yasu or Lion to even exist.

1. WWII must have happened in a way that lead up to Beatrice Castiglioni reaching Japan and meeting Kinzo
2. Kinzo must have gotten the gold from Castiglioni to buy Rokkenjima, build Kuwadorian and get his daughter pregnant.

In both cases the mystery of the gold exists which lead to several very likely events. Like his children searching after the gold and the situation boiling up to a critical point. Whether Yasu exists as the hidden heir or Lion exists as the obvious heir, it does not seem to change the fates of the siblings to a great deal.

I think what Bern was implying is that in a series of events that leads to the existence of Ushiromiya Lion (who might or might not carry that name) the situation of the Ushiromiya family is so full of tragedy that a bloody result is almost given. The fact alone that for him/her to exist Kinzo needs to sleep with his daughter creates the necessary tension.

She also never said that there is no world where "Lion" exists in some form and is happy, just that the chances of finding one are close to zero.

I disagree ... I think there are several other factors much more relevant to the type of tragedy Bern showed, those being that Kinzo was dead, the adults were conspicuously given a large number of loaded guns, and that some o the gold had already been converted to money.

We've already discussed before why only changing the detail of "Oh, the siblings suddenly disagreed with Lion succeeding the Headship so young, so Kinzoi through the Epitaph at them" still leaves the situation as silly and lacking a motive. Not to say Kyrie would NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE end up shooting Lion in the face, but in Lion's world Kinzo is still present to solve the inheritance problem, and while the siblings financial situation may be tense, it's a pretty big jump from "I need money" to "Let's murder absolutely e everybody, even Maria."