One Piece - Chapter 587 (manga)

[Freya]

Originally Posted by ArabianLuffy

You mean Gorousei (Five Elder Stars). Well, I thought at first them, and I did re-think again that the only organization that can stand against even the Gorousei themselves is the revolutionary army.

I guess. But that would be a bit anti-climatic with another Shichibukai with Dragon...though Kuma is no longer part of it since he's a full cyborg now.

[Poetic Justice]

I don't think sabo will die, At least i hope not! He's been an excellent character so far and would really hate to see him die.

But as to why i don't think he won't die, The fact that he's out on open sea right now means that luffy and ace will not be able to see him die and thus make his death irrelevant.

But then again if he's captured they could hold a public execution. Also him pondering the meaning of freedom is also clear foreshadowing NOOOOOOO. >.>

[marvelB]

BTW, I dunno if anyone else brought it up yet, but I'm assuming that Kuma was the one who cleared a path for the Grey Terminal survivors. If he had the paw fruit back then, I don't think it would have been too difficult a task for him to blast away some fire with a shockwave.



Also, as I mentioned before, I wonder if the world nobles will be bringing protection with them in the form of vice admirals? While I personally still prefer to see former fleet admiral Kong make an appearance in this flashback, I have no objection to seeing a 10-years younger Kizaru or Akainu showing up at Goa, either (of course, this also depends on whether or not they were still VAs at the time). Sure, Garp may be a more obvious choice here, but since we're in the middle of an important flashback, why not bring out some of the other big boys? Heck, maybe one of the Shichibukai might make a surprise appearance as a bodyguard (I think Doflamingo would make a fine candidate, wouldn't you agree?)....

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Heck, maybe one of the Shichibukai might make a surprise appearance as a bodyguard (I think Doflamingo would make a fine candidate, wouldn't you agree?)....

That depends on whether or not Doflamingo was a warlord back then (10 years ago). I'm curious as to when the shichibukai faction was established.

[Noe]

And Sabo departs in search of freedom, nice.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

That depends on whether or not Doflamingo was a warlord back then (10 years ago). I'm curious as to when the shichibukai faction was established.

You know, after learning the ages of all the Shichibukai in the latest SBS, I'm thinking there's a good chance that the faction was around for at least a decade. In fact, we already knew that Moria's been stationed at Thriller Bark for at least that long, because that's how long Hogback's been working under him. And considering that over half those guys are past their thirties/forties (Dofla's revealed to be 39 years old.... just a year older than Blackbeard), I'd say they've been in the pirating biz long enough to attract the government's attention. So yes, I think there's a very good chance that Doflamingo may have been one of the seven during this time.....

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

^ Plausible reasoning, my friend. But I also took into account the fact that Ace was offered a warlord position, which had to be 2 years ago at the most. That means there was one vacant spot in the shichibukai faction during that time, so maybe Doflamingo could have taken that spot after Ace declined the offer.

[longnose-kun]

Sabo will learn the meaning of freedom, which will be his death. He will be free from that wreched world, and everyone is happy. So Sabo dies, flashback over, Luffy better, and the hunt for other strawhats begin. Yay S

[mechalord]

It looks like a death wink cleared the path out of the dumps. One of the guys yells out "look some explosion just cleared a path through the fire." Kuma pushes stuff at high speeds and leaves a bear paw wherever he uses his powers. Looks like it was a Death Wink from Ivan.

Sabo looks like he's sailing off but he's going to get snatched up and dragged back to Goa. Someone is going to pick him up by an ear and dump him off with the royal guard. "Looks like one of your nobles misplaced a kid. Here..."

[grey_1960]

Chapter 587
That was a good chapter. That was cool to see Kuma and Iva but I was hoping to see some new revolutionary characters from Dragon. The next chapter is going to be good. I wonder if Sabo is going to die in this arch? At first I thought he was going to go with Dragon but there he is on the last page. This isn't good.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I'd also like to point out that Blackbeard really made Ace into a broken man. After his loss, Ace had to live with the shame of failing to avenge Thatch, so this brought his spirits down even more. In such a depressed state, we could say that Ace simply couldn't muster up enough will power to knock out his executioners during the war.

Ace was never broken, he never lived in shame, and Blackbeard is getting way to much credit. The only credit Blackbeard deserves is defeating Ace and handing Ace to the WG. Ace could have survived the war if he didn't let his emotion get to him and he understood the his logia and his opponents logia powers. It was never about Ace's will.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Ace was never broken, he never lived in shame, and Blackbeard is getting way to much credit. The only credit Blackbeard deserves is defeating Ace and handing Ace to the WG. Ace could have survived the war if he didn't let his emotion get to him and he understood the his logia and his opponents logia powers. It was never about Ace's will.

Uh, if Ace didn't have a broken will, I doubt he'd have gone as far as to ask Garp to kill him at Impel Down.

[Prestige]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Chapter 587
Ace was never broken, he never lived in shame, and Blackbeard is getting way to much credit. The only credit Blackbeard deserves is defeating Ace and handing Ace to the WG. Ace could have survived the war if he didn't let his emotion get to him and he understood the his logia and his opponents logia powers. It was never about Ace's will.

Ace is largerly accused and blamed because he was taunted by Akainu while he could had just ran away and perhaps lived.

I disagree with people who accuse Ace, as we have seen in this flashback he never backs down or runs, it was his charecteristic flaw, just like Sanji wont hurt womens even if he is about to be killled by them.

Also Ace respected Whitebeard over anything and he knew that Whitebeard sacrificed him to save his crew and he just could not tolerate how Akainu insulted Whitebeard as loser and failure. Ace's decision to fight Akainu was most reasonable and undestandable, also Ace was not aware that his logia powers would be vulnerable to Akainu's, no one would really guessed that before.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by james0246

This will undoubtedly be the official excuse (if Oda really wants Ace to have had Haoushoku Haki), but it is a little weird. Why give a dead character an amazing power-up, then have them never use it because they lost their ambition? It would have been far simpler, and easier to digest, if the Haki burst came from the living character that we already know posses the trait, rather than a dead character that has never shown the trait when they were alive (until this flashback). It seems like such a useless plot point...so, here's hoping that Oda does something with a dead character's Haoushoku Haki...

Well, it makes sense though, If you think of Haki as being similar to a Muscle. It has to be constantly exercised or it can weaken. Plus I've always wondered how Haki works with Logia-users. I don't think you can call Ace's or Luffy's Haki... Haoushoku Haki. Because those burst were don't unconsciously. Their Haki wasn't/isn't at that Level yet. More like their potential.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Pardon me for barging in on the Haki talk with some more on-topicness, but I wanted to bring up a little theory I have about the king of Goa: What if it turns out that he's one of the Gorousei? As I pointed out a couple of times already, I find it very curious that Oda chose to obscure the face of a seemingly unimportant character. And if it is true that the Goa king is one of the elders, maybe this means that the rest of them were also some sort of ruler/politician in each of the other blue seas?



In fact, this reminds me of how some people wondered if the elders were related to the world nobles back when they were first introduced during the Sabaody arc. Well, I think it would be pretty interesting if the elders DO turn out to be of royal/noble descent themselves, though still unrelated to the Tenryuubito.....

I don't know about this. The Gorousei doesn't seem like the type. Their personalities doesn't come off as Noblemen. More than Generals who later became Politicians. Come to think of it, has any of the Gorousei names been mentioned? They could be the Previous Admirals... doesn't anybody know what happen to Kong?? (I think that was his name) The former Fleet Admiral? Its a good chance the Gorousei, or at least some of them, could be them.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Also, as I mentioned before, I wonder if the world nobles will be bringing protection with them in the form of vice admirals? While I personally still prefer to see former fleet admiral Kong make an appearance in this flashback, I have no objection to seeing a 10-years younger Kizaru or Akainu showing up at Goa, either (of course, this also depends on whether or not they were still VAs at the time). Sure, Garp may be a more obvious choice here, but since we're in the middle of an important flashback, why not bring out some of the other big boys? Heck, maybe one of the Shichibukai might make a surprise appearance as a bodyguard (I think Doflamingo would make a fine candidate, wouldn't you agree?)....

If its Akainu, that would explain why he seemed so dead set on killing Luffy. He might have a Grudge against Dragon.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Prestige

Also Ace respected Whitebeard over anything and he knew that Whitebeard sacrificed him to save his crew and he just could not tolerate how Akainu insulted Whitebeard as loser and failure. Ace's decision to fight Akainu was most reasonable and undestandable, also Ace was not aware that his logia powers would be vulnerable to Akainu's, no one would really guessed that before.

Pride is no good when you're dead. Ace was foolish no matter how you look at it. Whitebeard and his crew came to save him, and they failed to meet their objective all because Ace's emotions got the better of him. What a waste, seeing as how Whitebeard sacrificed himself and that his family suffered many casualties, all for nothing in the end. Ace was an idiot, plain and simple.

[Kallen4life]

that wasn't the smartest move tactical-wise, but you gotta understand Ace too .. I'm no fan of his btw, though the fire fist attack is flashy


and yeah - asking to be killed in ID is sorta being broken .. though after Luffy freed him and they were both (relatively) unharmed he regained some spirit

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

Well, it makes sense though, If you think of Haki as being similar to a Muscle. It has to be constantly exercised or it can weaken. Plus I've always wondered how Haki works with Logia-users. I don't think you can call Ace's or Luffy's Haki... Haoushoku Haki. Because those burst were don't unconsciously. Their Haki wasn't/isn't at that Level yet. More like their potential.

Luffy's is definitely Haoushoku Haki. When more than one user of the same ability has commented as such, then there's no room for debate. Untrained or not, it's there. What we don't know is if Ace has the same ability. If he had put down all of Gray Terminal, there'd be a solid argument. Rayleigh could put down a room and we don't know him to have Haoushoku, and if he doesn't then it shows small feats are not beyond regular Haki.

[grey_1960]

Response

Originally Posted by marvelB

Uh, if Ace didn't have a broken will, I doubt he'd have gone as far as to ask Garp to kill him at Impel Down.

You forgot to mention every other suicidal things he has done as a kid or said throughout his entire life. White Beard as a law for the rest of the world to follow. If you mess with my men or my territory then you mess with me. Garp mentioned to Ace it does not matter what you do Whitebeard is coming. Ace just wanted to spare everyone the trouble that all.

Who is Ace?
Some people don't seem to understand who Ace is and Oda as really started to put it out in these recent chapters. Ace is a hot head who won't back down to anyone. Ace is the son of the most hated man in the world. Ace is a troubled boy who wants someone to love him and wants him to live (Chapter 584 page 13-15).

Ace's situtations
The Porshemy incident Chapter 584 page 10
Admiral Akainu and Ace in Chapter 573 Page 11
Black Beard incident Chapter 552 page 14-16
Ace and Dadan vs. Captain of the Blue jam Chapter 587 Page 12-13

In everyone of these cases Ace always had a chance to back down and take another path. But he didn't. People say its Black Beard or Akainu are the ones who took Ace down. No its was Ace's attitude that got him captured and killed. If you look even further into the 4 cases Black Beard and Akainu were only ones powerful enough to beat Ace. Then if you look even further into the 4 cases Akainu was the only one who caught on to Ace's bad habbit (Chapter 573 page 11).

Ace is a troubled boy who's Father was the most hated man in the world. He has alway questioned his life even at a young age. People point the will to live or his suicidal phrases but they don't look at his whole life. Ace explains everything in Chapter 574 page 12-13. Will was never the issue with Ace.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Luffy's is definitely Haoushoku Haki. When more than one user of the same ability has commented as such, then there's no room for debate. Untrained or not, it's there. What we don't know is if Ace has the same ability. If he had put down all of Gray Terminal, there'd be a solid argument. Rayleigh could put down a room and we don't know him to have Haoushoku, and if he doesn't then it shows small feats are not beyond regular Haki.

I'm not saying Luffy doesn't have it. But if its used unconsciously then its the same as not having as far as Luffy is concerned. At the moment Luffy's Haki isn't strong enough to be called "Haoushoku Haki". But we know that's his potential.

[morbosfist]

By that measure, my having a gun but not being proficient with it makes it less of a gun. Which is silly. Regardless of his training, it is what it is. Even passively it does something ordinary Haki does not. People are drawn to him, as both Iva and Mihawk comment upon. Ace is different. We do not know the level of his Haki, and so to classify it as not being the uber version is fair play. To denigrate Luffy's version for simply lack of training is flawed thinking.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

By that measure, my having a gun but not being proficient with it makes it less of a gun. Which is silly. Regardless of his training, it is what it is. Even passively it does something ordinary Haki does not. People are drawn to him, as both Iva and Mihawk comment upon. Ace is different. We do not know the level of his Haki, and so to classify it as not being the uber version is fair play. To denigrate Luffy's version for simply lack of training is flawed thinking.

My opinion stands. Your comparison is flawed. You can't compare a persons Spirit to a Gun. A gun kills regardless of training or not, a 3-year old can hold a gun and kill. Haoushoku Haki =/ Gun. Strengthening your Haki, to able to put it to use, takes training and time.