[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

... I don't remember his curry example... however when you enter in a restaurant you've a general idea of the quality level of the restaurant and of the food they're going to serve.

Okay, maybe I should explain, if you want to read the complete thing, go read the interview I translated...I'll try to briefen this one:
Imagine a curry shop that sells extremely spicy curry and has a good target group of customers who like it. Then suddenly the shop becomes popular and people who think it's stylish start flocking in but dislike the curry because it is too spicy. So the owner decides to make more maistream curry to appeal to more customers...in the end he stops making extra-spicy curry altogether because there is more money to get with the mainstream audience.

This is what he likens his own mistake to. He knew that he was "betraying" his special target audience, but he was lured in by the success he got through Higurashi.

The mystery maniacs were his first audience, weren't they? What about the rest of his audience? the one he included as a second thought?

The audience is really mixed, but the extreme of type two, who he wanted to exclude at the beginning but started to include again as he went on, where the otaku fanbase who expected a classical story in the style of Higurashi with cute girls and murder, so they started bitching when they didn't understand what was going on and it wasn't spoon-fed to them.

----

Adding to what I wrote before. When talking about what the TIPs section says, has anybody mentioned the connection between Zepal and Furfur and George and Jessica respectively?

Spoiler for TIPs:

Zepal
One of the Great Demons of the 72 pillars. Governing love and testing it by holding a trial.

Zepal bestows an absolute protection of invulnerability on the holder of the contract. Through this giving the contractor the valor to be fearless in the face of any wound of love.

Prefering herbivorous men (in the original sôshoku danshi...something similar to a softy. a man who is not interested in money or sex and is often family oriented) but also a hunter of predatory passion.

Has a different gender from Furfur.

Furfur

One of the Great Demons of the 72 pillars. Governing love and testing it by holding a trial.

Furfur bestows an infinite inexhaustible offensive power on the holder of the contract. Through this giving the contractor the valor to be unconcerned in the face of any wall keeping from love.

A trainer with a love to teach herbivorous men (in the original sôshoku danshi...something similar to a softy. a man who is not interested in money or sex and is often family oriented) the charm of flesh.

Has a different gender from Zepal.　

When considering which powers George and Jessica had in EP4 and 6 it could say quite some interesting things about their character.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The two of them are outside under a gazebo. Trees and sunlight are clearly visible. Yasu never met Kinzo in such circumstances.

Secondly, we're shown three flash backs. One of them is of the original Beatrice, wherein it implies that Kinzo is the one who started the bloodbath for the gold, the second is the Kinzo Rape of A Beatrice, and the third is Yasu learning of her disability and calling herself furniture.

I highly doubt Ryukishi would neglect a neat successive portrayal of all three Beatrices in succession like that.

I admit I don't remember the background of that scene.

You might be right... I'm still confused though by the fact Beeato calls Kinzo 'father'. Also, if she's Beato 2 that scene isn't really that meaningful as the others as while the other two turn upside down something that was said in Ep 2 (Kinzo being the one behind the attack at the Italian) and disclose new elements (Yasu learning of her disability) that one doesn't really say anything new as it confirm Kinzo had inappropriate feelings for Beato... and since he kept her trapped and she wanted to escape from there either leaving her baby behind or not knowing she had a baby because maybe they had took it from her (and if that's the case maybe she wanted to leave to get it back) the romantic love story between her and Kinzo never seemed so romantic to me.

I really didn't need someone to confirm that.

But yes, Ryukishi might have wanted to portray 3 facts connected to the 3 Beato.
Narratively speaking it would be a good idea...

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Btw. through a Japanese page where some theories are collected I stumbled upon a nice little tidbit that can't really be accident.
The question was, why is, when Beatrice shows her final riddle and reveals the candy do Ange, left hand and right hand written in purple? The idea implied by it is quite clever if you think about the definition of purple truth: Only if Beatrice is the culprit can she lie about what hands she used, so that means that you can accept it as magic. If she is not the culprit then this was the truth and it was merely a trick, so she is likely not the culprit.
I think this implies despite Battlers attempt to create a peaceful version, Beatrice has to be a murderer even in the magical story because the people never came home.

Neat.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Oh yes and has anybody else mentioned the description of Eva-Beatrice in the TIPs section of EP8?

Spoiler for TIPs EP8:

Eva-Beatrice
The witch who had taken over Beatrices name, brought to life again through the "Witch Legend Serial Murder Case".

Denied by the many "Eva culprit theories" existing among the numerous theories in the catbox, yet can bring herself to life endlessly through the "Eva culprit theories" by being the culprit of the tragedy herself.

Maybe you could also call her the lid seperating the inside and outside of the catbox.
Of course, she knows what is inside of the catbox.

Haha. Yeah it really makes you wonder if Eva intentionally took some blame herself... Like, she had something to do with the embellishing of the Beatrice legend. We know that she did, at least inadvertently, when she sold all of Kinzo's stuff off to the occult community.

[J the Drafter]

To make a note from the Kinzo/Yasu rape talk, if I remember correctly there's a scene in ep.4 where suit!Beatrice is ranting to Battler about be sexually abused. I no longer have the game (I switched to a different computer) so if someone else is inclined to check episode 4 maybe they can find something useful.

[AuraTwilight]

You might be right... I'm still confused though by the fact Beeato calls Kinzo 'father'.

Kuwadorian Beatrice is the only one that ever really did so.

Also, if she's Beato 2 that scene isn't really that meaningful as the others as while the other two turn upside down something that was said in Ep 2 (Kinzo being the one behind the attack at the Italian) and disclose new elements (Yasu learning of her disability) that one doesn't really say anything new as it confirm Kinzo had inappropriate feelings for Beato

Well, the first flashback doesn't even have Bice IN IT, and the last flashback doesn't have Kinzo in it.

The only really connecting thread is that they tell us something horrible.

To make a note from the Kinzo/Yasu rape talk, if I remember correctly there's a scene in ep.4 where suit!Beatrice is ranting to Battler about be sexually abused. I no longer have the game (I switched to a different computer) so if someone else is inclined to check episode 4 maybe they can find something useful.

There's no such thing. She does talk about wanting Battler to be able to bind her, command her, and make her submit like Kinzo did, and that she would let him. It's all pretty fetish-y, in all honesty. But since Piece!Beatrice is an amalgamation of all three Beatrices as a supernatural witch, it doesn't really say anything about Yasu's sexual history.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kuwadorian Beatrice is the only one that ever really did so.

Did she? I thought that in EP3 she just called him "Kinzo", although she said that she thinks of him as a best friend and a father.

On the other hand, there's also little Beatrice at the beginning of that episode who calls Kinzo "Grandfather." That probably makes the most sense as a fantasy-goggles version of little Yasu, in which case the Beatrice using "Father" wouldn't match up to her.

[Wanderer]

About Kinzo being cognitively insane when he raped Beato II... I was just rereading Yasu's formal meeting with Kinzo in episode 7 and Kinzo said this:

Beatrice...... ......I'm sorry. I'm so sorry...... I knew how you felt, ......and yet I...... I'm sorry... Please forgive me... Please, please forgive me......

Also Kinzo and Yasu having some kind of sexual relationship really doesn't make any sense. Kinzo didn't even know who Yasu was until that formal meeting... and he uh... died during it.

And to add something to this:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Haha. Yeah it really makes you wonder if Eva intentionally took some blame herself... Like, she had something to do with the embellishing of the Beatrice legend. We know that she did, at least inadvertently, when she sold all of Kinzo's stuff off to the occult community.

What if Eva really did have a hand in writing and/or distributing Banquet and/or other fictions? Credit went to "Ushiromiya Maria" and 18^8, but what if Eva and Hachijou Ikuko were secretly in contact and somehow worked together to make it all happen? It would explain why Eva-Beatrice seems to have so much thematic power over the fictions, and why she is considered to have "inherited Beatrice's role". Also, this could make Ikuko=Yasu work very easily. For one, Ikuko=Yasu would explain why Eva would be in contact with Ikuko in the first place. And it explains how Ikuko got financially established and how Ikuko got Eva's diary. Also it might help explain Yasu's agenda in hiding Touya from the world (Eva in particular).

It all really makes a surprising amount of sense when put together. So, can anyone help me figure out what might be wrong with this idea?

[AuraTwilight]

Did she? I thought that in EP3 she just called him "Kinzo", although she said that she thinks of him as a best friend and a father.

On the other hand, there's also little Beatrice at the beginning of that episode who calls Kinzo "Grandfather." That probably makes the most sense as a fantasy-goggles version of little Yasu, in which case the Beatrice using "Father" wouldn't match up to her.

Add to that Chick!Beato, who calls BATTLER Father, whom consistently symbolizes Kinzo in multiple scenes.

What if Eva really did have a hand in writing and/or distributing Banquet and/or other fictions? Credit went to "Ushiromiya Maria" and 18^8, but what if Eva and Hachijou Ikuko were secretly in contact and somehow worked together to make it all happen? It would explain why Eva-Beatrice seems to have so much thematic power over the fictions, and why she is considered to have "inherited Beatrice's role". Also, this could make Ikuko=Yasu work very easily. For one, Ikuko=Yasu would explain why Eva would be in contact with Ikuko in the first place. And it explains how Ikuko got financially established and how Ikuko got Eva's diary. Also it might help explain Yasu's agenda in hiding Touya from the world (Eva in particular).

It all really makes a surprising amount of sense when put together. So, can anyone help me figure out what might be wrong with this idea?

Well, wouldn't Eva be able to confirm if Battler did it or not, to Toya? Or does Eva not know of Toya's existence in this theory?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, wouldn't Eva be able to confirm if Battler did it or not, to Toya? Or does Eva not know of Toya's existence in this theory?

Either case is possible, although I would think it makes a bit more sense if Touya were a secret. If Eva and Touya were communicating directly (without Ikuko as a filter) then there would be implications that I am too sleepy to really delve into at the moment.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Either case is possible, although I would think it makes a bit more sense if Touya were a secret. If Eva and Touya were communicating directly (without Ikuko as a filter) then there would be implications that I am too sleepy to really delve into at the moment.

It's not impossible that Battler's incoherent description, of how "they" escaped through the tunnels after he was told how to get there and led to "his" escape, included Eva as well. He said that he was told that the tunnel would lead to Kuwadorian but somehow he ended up at the underground harbour, so maybe they were seperated in the process. This would give Eva and him enough time to devise the concept of carrying on the idea of the witch and Eva sacrificing herself in case things got out of hand.

But I'd say that the line that she was "brought back to life by the 'Witch Legend Serial Murder Case'" could also imply that she was only created then by the uncertainty of Eva's culpability. Eva did inherit at least the ring (somehow), which is in direct connection to the gold which we know is one of the prerequisits of being "Beatrice". Later she refused to comment on it, it is implied that she did so to protect Ange, so the witch remained in an uncertain status of existence and nonexistence. As long as there is no certainty about the idea of Eva culprit it remains the only realistic solution and is therefore the lid to the box cotaining any further truth.

----

I also continued to think a little more about Zepar and Furfur, how they mirror both Shkannon's indecisiveness and George/Jessica. Maybe they mirror George and Jessica or Yasu's image of them further than discussed before.

Zepar is described as bestowing a protective barrier to the contract holder, the same power George used in his magical battles. This barrier gives the power to ward of any wounds caused in or by love, which would mirror how Georges and Shannons relationship was viewed by Yasu. The protective barrier provided by George made her forget the fact that she had been hurt before and could heal in the process.
Also Zepar is described as preferring family oriented, calm men, who have no interest in competitive behaviour or lust, yet on the other hand has a hidden side of being a hunter of that predatory passion that seems to be disliked. That shows the two sides of George quite well, how he seemed to be that calm gentle boy who refused to marry into money through Omiai (arranged weddings) like his mother planned, yet seems to harbour an inner passion once he set his eyes on something.

Furfur is described as bestowing an infinite offensive power, like Jessicas magical fist enhancements. That power also enables to break down any barrier around love, which mirrors how Jessica taught her not to be affraid to pursue her love but also how she insisted on her right to love as well. It was on Jessicas instigation that she started to honestly pursue George, but on the other hand Jessica insisted on their pact to fall in love together.
Also Furfur is described as a trainer who teaches the joys of the flesh to herbivorous men. This describes Jessica pushing her to pursue love and also trying to win Kanon for herself quite well. She is constantly trying to get Shkannon to come out of their shell and admit to their passion (e.g. she implied that Shannon must have had intimate contact with George on Okinawa).

This is interesting because while they are both intertwined in how they made "Yasu" evolve into a different state (Shannon and Kanon) they work against each other at the same time. That could imply the conflict in the emotions towards the two, as choosing one would mean turning the other down and loosing that path altogether (like shown in the plot of EP6).
It would also confirm the theory that Battler was never a part of the trial of love in the first place...or at least not a conscious part and thus his involvement caused an unexpected disruption.

On a completely different note, I find Ryûkishis choice of the term 草食男子 (herbivorous men) quite interesting. He could have choosen 草食系の人 or something close to that, but he (consciously or subconsciously) chose to go with the image of a male partner. In case we read Zepar and Furfur as representations of how Yasu saw George and Jessica, this would point towards the theory of Yasu's maleness. It is interesting because the demon with the male gender would be marked as homosexual in this case, not the female one. The question is, is this a subconscious element stemming from the author or is he really implying Yasu's maleness and therefore Georges possible and Battlers definite homosexuality?

[AuraTwilight]

I now recall that shopped image of Battler saying that his first love was a boy in EP5.

I CALLED IT.

[Oblivion]

There's a question I've been wondering about. The Rokkenjima Massacre, did it actually happen? Seeing as how the explosion erased nearly all evidence on the island, how would they know? The letters talk about the killings but that isn't actual evidence of the killings actually taking place. Was there any actual proof that they were murdered before the explosion took place? And after reading those two letter did people just assume that there was a murder because those letters said there was?

[AuraTwilight]

That, and Eva managed to survive. And since there WAS an explosion, someone had to set it off, so it's not unbelievable to think there was bloodshed.

The most damning evidence that something went down is that Eva doesn't want to talk about it.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But I'd say that the line that she was "brought back to life by the 'Witch Legend Serial Murder Case'" could also imply that she was only created then by the uncertainty of Eva's culpability.

Oh certainly. The TIPS alone are hardly conclusive. What I'm currently proposing is based on more hints than just that one line, though. There's more thematic evidence, such as how Beatrice actively bestows the powers upon Eva-Beatrice in Banquet, and of course the fact that Eva-Beatrice actually replaces Beato in her portrait, and has an independent, active presence in the meta-world.

Basically, Eva-Beatrice strikes me more as a representation of Eva's projected will itself, not merely her incidental influence.

Remember a while ago how both you and I thought it was considerably likely that Eva wrote Banquet?... until we realized that in episode 6 Ange said it was 18^8 who wrote Banquet, Alliance, and End. But the thing is... other than 18^8 being connected to "Hachijou Touya" we have no direct information on how the forgeries were produced and distributed.

And I don't think my scenario would be strange at all (Yasu and Eva both surviving and being in contact with each other). But whether Eva knows of Touya's existence, or whether Touya would know if Ikuko was working with Eva, I'm not certain of.

[Oblivion]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That, and Eva managed to survive. And since there WAS an explosion, someone had to set it off, so it's not unbelievable to think there was bloodshed.

The most damning evidence that something went down is that Eva doesn't want to talk about it.

Ah kk that makes sense. So as far as physical evidence goes, there is none?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

There's a question I've been wondering about. The Rokkenjima Massacre, did it actually happen? Seeing as how the explosion erased nearly all evidence on the island, how would they know? The letters talk about the killings but that isn't actual evidence of the killings actually taking place. Was there any actual proof that they were murdered before the explosion took place? And after reading those two letter did people just assume that there was a murder because those letters said there was?

That's the thing. The explosion is officially caused by an accident. It was because of the first two bottle-story letters and, as AT says, Eva's complete silence about the incident that a massacre was even considered in the first place.

But the bottle-stories appear to have been written before or during the incident. How would that work, unless someone knew an incident was going to happen? That's why they get so much attention and credence.

So, yeah it's true that there's no evidence for the massacre other than the bottles and whatever the survivors know. However, I tend to believe there really was a massacre for two main reasons: 1) because the story suggests in various ways that Battler and Eva know something about a massacre, and 2) because the most sensible motives for Beatrice to write about a massacre involve there actually being one.

[AuraTwilight]

Ah kk that makes sense. So as far as physical evidence goes, there is none?

How could there be? The entire island got blown up.

[Shirozaki]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I now recall that shopped image of Battler saying that his first love was a boy in EP5.

I CALLED IT.

That was shopped? So many people've mentioned it that I've began thinking that it is real.

[Renall]

There must have been some determination as to the cause of the explosion. I will assume the R-Prime police are not idiots, so they would have sent out an investigation crew and, upon seeing the size of the damage, probably called in some experts (a bomb squad, Self-Defense Force explosives experts, US military consultants, something). I can't imagine the experts would conclude anything but "it was clearly an explosion," and I have to imagine they also concluded the explosion was most likely man-made (as opposed to volcanic). There simply would not be any evidence of a natural disaster based on what we know from the stories and VN text.

Now, to officially rule a man-made explosion an accident requires one of several possible chains of events:

• They (erroneously) concluded that the explosion was somehow consistent with an accidental detonation of the boiler in the mansion or some other piece of equipment on the island. I find this somewhat unlikely for the same reasons the boiler explosion theory has always been unlikely, it just can't produce that much damage.
• They suspected or were aware through historical record that the island had a Kaiten submarine pen and concluded that there must have been leftover munitions which had accidentally detonated. If Eva made up a story which contained no suggestions of foul play, and it was plausible to the police, I could see such a conclusion being made. I think this one's likely, especially if they knew about the submarine pen.
• They suspected foul play, either because Eva's story did not make sense or because they had heard bits and pieces of information which suggested Kinzo may have kept the munitions in working order, but due to a gross lack of physical evidence were unable to advance the theory because they had no way to make the charges stick. Thus, they ruled it an accident to save face. This is also possible, since I don't think anything Eva could come up with would rationally explain why she was the only known survivor.
• They were almost certain (due to the consultation of experts) that an accidental detonation was almost completely impossible, and knew there was foul play, but either didn't believe Eva was in on it, had plausible reason to believe from Eva's story that she was not in on it, or as above could not actually prove anything and thus could not press charges. Possible enough, I suppose.
• As above, only they thought they probably could press charges but were bought off and declared the whole affair an accident. I don't know if Eva could afford this at the time, though.
• Finally, they just flat-out didn't know what the hell had happened, and although they could conclude it was a huge man-made explosion, they had absolutely no evidence that led them to conclude anything about how it could have happened (i.e. they didn't know about the munitions). Naturally, they can't come out and say they have no idea, so they rule it an "accident," which means they no longer have to investigate it. I have to think someone would've known about the munitions or that there was some physical evidence that what had detonated were military torpedo warheads, but if Kinzo covered his tracks well enough perhaps nobody knew.
• Government cover-up. The instant they realized undetonated WW2 munitions had been left lying around, they immediately shut down the investigation so nobody would hear about it. Also possible, if that was actually something that would've been scandalous in the 80s.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by Shirozaki

That was shopped? So many people've mentioned it that I've began thinking that it is real.

I think it was an accidental implication created by not mentioning the last sentence's substantive corrected. It's like when someone says "I like you" and you answer "me too", implying you like yourself too. So I think it's actually real and not shopped. It might have been corrected in a later patch, unless it is actually the real implication.

Originally Posted by Renall

[*]Government cover-up. The instant they realized undetonated WW2 munitions had been left lying around, they immediately shut down the investigation so nobody would hear about it. Also possible, if that was actually something that would've been scandalous in the 80s.[/list]

Okonogi: "We're talking about world peace here." ...Maybe it's out of context, but there might be some background workings of that level.